Lines Thread

[kipwinger 8,521]

How's it valid? Back then you could get away with a grinder in the top six because the other four or five guys produced more than enough offense. That's not a case on today's team. We need all of our top six players to contribute because we are offensively anemic. By the way, if its such a good idea why isn't it working? Neither helm or Abby have ever replicated the numbers that "grinders" like McCarty, lapointe, or brown did.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

How's it valid? Back then you could get away with a grinder in the top six because the other four or five guys produced more than enough offense. That's not a case on today's team. We need all of our top six players to contribute because we are offensively anemic. By the way, if its such a good idea why isn't it working? Neither helm or Abby have ever replicated the numbers that "grinders" like McCarty, lapointe, or brown did.

Again... It's lower scoring league. I'm not sure why you're comparing Brown(pre-cap) and Abby/Helm(post-cap).

Edited November 11, 2014 by Son of a Wing

[kipwinger 8,521]

Because he made that exact comparison originally. I was responding to his comparison.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Because he made that exact comparison originally. I was responding to his comparison.

By comparing numbers from different eras... which doesn't make much sense.

He just said it was successful for the team then and even more applicable today.

[kipwinger 8,521]

Did he say that or did you?

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Did he say that or did you?

lol Well it is the point you've been arguing against but here ya go...

He just said it was successful for the team then

Why would Smith sit? Jurco is sitting a couple games. It's not t end of the world and he isn't the first young player to do it. I expect him to be back in the lineup soon. For those lamenting Helm and Abdelkader on scoring lines, was Bowman an idiot for playing McCarty, Brown, and Lapointe on scoring lines?

and even more applicable today.

The makeup is the same and no team has that amount of talent top to bottom any more. Even with that talent though. Bowman had a grinder on each scoring line.

And no team has that many 30 goal players anymore. Stop acting like this is the same league. 2 scorers and a grinder works, and it allows a team with 6 scorers to roll 3 good lines instead of 2.

Glad I could clear that up for you

[kipwinger 8,521]

Saying teams don't have scoring g depth like they did in the past is not evidence that putting grinders in the top six works. Especially considering our scorers aren't that good compared to the other quality teams in the league. We already don't have top flight scorers and now we are taking g up top six spots on guys who have no offense. The result? Our team struggles to score and you guys come on lgw and say its working. It isn't. That's why we lose against good teams. The defense and jimmy keep it close and the offense can't finish. But it works right?

[joesuffP 1,746]

Look around the league we're an average scoring team. We're a team rebuilding, there is going to be some holes

We have a logjam of bottom 6 two way forwards. Helm is only filling this role until we can acquire a top 6 winger. I think defense is the bigger issue and a lot harder to acquire then a winger. A couple significant trades clears this problem up

Edited November 11, 2014 by joesuffP

[joesuffP 1,746]

Right now this team lacks the fire power on both the defensive and offensive side to be a consistent winner in the East. Our record is pretty fair of this team and how they play. I'm not worried though because I don't think Holland intended this team to be contending. Our players are developing nicely and now Holland has a lot of quality peices that he never had before.

[rick zombo 3,739]

Look around the league we're an average scoring team. We're a team rebuilding, there is going to be some holes

We have a logjam of bottom 6 two way forwards. Helm is only filling this role until we can acquire a top 6 winger. I think defense is the bigger issue and a lot harder to acquire then a winger. A couple significant trades clears this problem up

Easier said than done though, right?

[Guest DeGraa55]

Easier said than done though, right?

F or holland yes. There's been some good trades out there that he won't bite on.

You can't have the mindset of nhl 15 or holland and say "I want elite level talent but mantha Larkin nyquist Tatar smith dekeyser and 15 other players are untouchable".

Easier said than done though, right?

F or holland yes. There's been some good trades out there that he won't bite on.

You can't have the mindset of nhl 15 or holland and say "I want elite level talent but mantha Larkin nyquist Tatar smith dekeyser and 15 other players are untouchable".

[joesuffP 1,746]

What were the rumours about Zach Bogosian? Were the Jets rumoured to be interested in moving him earlier?

[number9 3,297]

What were the rumours about Zach Bogosian? Were the Jets rumoured to be interested in moving him earlier?

Yes they were. They were rumored to be interested in moving him this summer, all of 2013, all of 2012, all of 2011, and probably earlier than that. His name comes up every year despite no credible sources that suggest he's available. Which baffles me because Zach Bogosian is really nothing special. RH yes, but that's about it.

[kipwinger 8,521]

Yes they were. They were rumored to be interested in moving him this summer, all of 2013, all of 2012, all of 2011, and probably earlier than that. His name comes up every year despite no credible sources that suggest he's available. Which baffles me because Zach Bogosian is really nothing special. RH yes, but that's about it.

Agreed. He's consistently come up short given all the hype. I'd place him squarely in the Tyler Myers camp. Big, plays lots of minutes, but doesn't really do anything great with them.

[e_prime 1,936]

Agreed. He's consistently come up short given all the hype. I'd place him squarely in the Tyler Myers camp. Big, plays lots of minutes, but doesn't really do anything great with them.

...and planted firmly, again right alongside Myers, in the category of "Tons of potential. I wonder what he'd do on a different team/in a different system."

Too bad the asking prices for both of these guys is way too high.

KFQ and JMF'nK camp for us.

Edited November 12, 2014 by e_prime

[joesuffP 1,746]

I really like the idea of adding Bogosian. RH'd shot, big, physical, can chip in 30ish points in a full season and he's entering his prime years. Having a blue line with DD, Smith and Bogosian all going through their prime years together is pretty significant. That's a promising group. If we can get him w/o our 1st, Mantha, Larkin or Nyquist Then i would do it in a heartbeat

I want our blueline to be balanced with a more defensive approach. All good puck movers with a good shut down guy paired with someone whose good on both ends. I see smith developing more as a kronwall guy. Not going to have dazzling offensive numbers but has all the tools and defensively responsible. DD looks like he's going to become one of the most dynamic shut down guys we've had in a long time and much better then Stuart was for us

[kipwinger 8,521]

I really like the idea of adding Bogosian. RH'd shot, big, physical, can chip in 30ish points in a full season and he's entering his prime years. Having a blue line with DD, Smith and Bogosian all going through their prime years together is pretty significant. That's a promising group. If we can get him w/o our 1st, Mantha, Larkin or Nyquist Then i would do it in a heartbeat

I want our blueline to be balanced with a more defensive approach. All good puck movers with a good shut down guy paired with someone whose good on both ends. I see smith developing more as a kronwall guy. Not going to have dazzling offensive numbers but has all the tools and defensively responsible. DD looks like he's going to become one of the most dynamic shut down guys we've had in a long time and much better then Stuart was for us

Be careful giving Bogo "30ish" point status. He's only done it once, and has only really come close one other time. Every other season he's been injury prone and abysmal at putting up points.

We have this tendency to assume that other players will produce more after they come here, which doesn't hold water. They might, or their production might stay as it was. But there's always the Quincey example. You might get quite a lot less out of him than you'd think.

...and planted firmly, again right alongside Myers, in the category of "Tons of potential. I wonder what he'd do on a different team/in a different system."

Too bad the asking prices for both of these guys is way too high.

KFQ and JMF'nK camp for us.

Maybe. Or maybe they'd be like Quincey. I agree, that's a big gamble to take when a team is asking for those kinds of prices.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

I really like the idea of adding Bogosian. RH'd shot, big, physical, can chip in 30ish points in a full season and he's entering his prime years. Having a blue line with DD, Smith and Bogosian all going through their prime years together is pretty significant. That's a promising group. If we can get him w/o our 1st, Mantha, Larkin or Nyquist Then i would do it in a heartbeat

I want our blueline to be balanced with a more defensive approach. All good puck movers with a good shut down guy paired with someone whose good on both ends. I see smith developing more as a kronwall guy. Not going to have dazzling offensive numbers but has all the tools and defensively responsible. DD looks like he's going to become one of the most dynamic shut down guys we've had in a long time and much better then Stuart was for us

Holy overpayment batman! I hope you were saying ONE OF 1st, Mantha, Larkin. Bogo isn't worth blowing up our youth for. Weber would be but thats about it. Bogo is a RH, younger version of big E. At least thats how I see him.

[kipwinger 8,521]

Holy overpayment batman! I hope you were saying ONE OF 1st, Mantha, Larkin. Bogo isn't worth blowing up our youth for. Weber would be but thats about it. Bogo is a RH, younger version of big E. At least thats how I see him.

I'm pretty sure he was saying he would take Bogo as long as it was without 1st, Mantha, or Larkin.

[T.Low 1,011]

Holy overpayment batman! I hope you were saying ONE OF 1st, Mantha, Larkin. Bogo isn't worth blowing up our youth for. Weber would be but thats about it. Bogo is a RH, younger version of big E. At least thats how I see him.

Look again, he typed "w/o".

[number9 3,297]

*Sigh*

Well we might as well discuss trading for Edler now too.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

*Sigh*

Well we might as well discuss trading for Edler now too.

Did his off season training include an ambidexterity routine?

As far as the actual lines are concerned, the growing trend of "insert scrub on line with star players" is here to stay. I truly feel as if the days of true top lines is being weeded out. There are a few right now - Kunitz-Crosby-Hornqvist, Forsberg-Ribiero-Neal, Benn-Spezza-Seguin (before Spezza was moved back to 2C).

Other teams, especially ones who are scrambling for offense, are mixing and matching. San Jose's throwing Wingels on lines with Marleau-Couture, Thornton-Pavelski, Patty Maroon and Smith-Pelly have both been used with Getzlaf-Perry. Last night, Washington used Ovie-Backstrom-Beagle, so it's not like this is a Red Wings thing.

Seems to me like we're seeing more 2nd and 3rd lines shine (with pure offensive talent, using younger players) - Pearson-Carter-Toffoli, Schwartz-Lehtera-Tarasenko, Palat-Johnson-Kucherov. Teams are kind of canceling those top lines out, and hoping the secondary scoring can come through. Not saying it's the best way to go, but it seems to be what's happening now in the NHL - seeking offense from young players on lower lines. If Detroit can get guys like Tatar, Jurco, etc going, I see the offense kicking in. I'm of the opinion that it may be time to send Jurco down for a bit, and call Pulkkinen up and play him on that 3rd line.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

does anyone know if Mantha has laced them up for GR yet? If he is ready and gets his legit shot in Detroit after a few weeks of GR work, and IF indeed Datsyuk and Weiss are ready, I would be intrigued to see lines that look like this:

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Mantha

Franzen - Weiss - Helm

Nyquist - Sheahan - Tatar

Miller - Glendening - Abdelkader

Sending Jurco back to GR (because he can be) and sitting Cleary, Nestrasil and Andersson. I am not quite sure if that is compliant with the roster limits ( I may be over) but if we are going to give Mantha the shot then something will have to give.

I do know that next off season, players are going to have to be cleared out to make room. There are a few high end kids that will not clear waivers next season. Then there's the likes of Jensen, Oullet, Sproul and Marchenko who are coming on like gang busters. Not to mention exposing Ferraro, Callahan and Aubry to waivers again.

This is why I mentioned in another thread that I think its ok if we start offering up some draft picks with players in order to maybe fill some needs. We have so many very talented kids that will be here next season or the next and we have too many contracts that will not be expiring in the next two years either. I am not writing this to bash anyone, but Holland will need to make roster room and make some moves in order to protect his young players. Your most tradable forward(s) are Franzen, Andersson, Helm and Weiss. Weiss has the NTC and Helm seems to be getting to where he needs to be. Franzen is himself this season and that is good at times. But, obviously we CANNOT re-sign Cleary. I am not sure of the waiver status of the defensemen I mentioned above, but Holland MUST look to ridding this team of players like Kindl, Lashoff and Quincey. Smith has to be re-signed. I know there isn't going to be much we can get in return for those guys, and Lashoff is a very good 7th guy to keep around.

Then again, with the log jam coming up, how can we acquire anybody? Where will they play? You'd have to give someone two players and a pick for one guy if you are picking someone up. It's just too bad that other GM's all want our top prospects and not our picks or players not named Datsyuk or Zetterberg. I seriously wonder what kind of player we could get in return if we offered a package of Franzen, Andersson and a 1st round pick. Probably nothing that could help us immediately anyhow, so may as well keep them.

How about dumping players next summer for some mid round picks? We have to re-sign Jurco, Nyquist, Nestrasil, Smith, Jensen and Pulkkinen and like I stated that is going to create even a larger jam in Detroit...but if we could get a bushel of 3rd-5th round picks, we could replenish our prospect pool a bit, to go along with our own picks (if Holland doesn't trade any of them.) IMO Franzen could very well get us a 2nd round pick, if not a 1st from a team looking to get someone who just may help them over the hump. I still think Vancouver or Dallas is a nice fit for him. Andersson could get a 4th or 5th, Kindl a 5th, Q maybe a 3rd. It's going to be tough, but I would rather trade those players than any one of our kids that are going to be here next season.

[Echolalia 2,961]

At this point, I don't even know whom I would want the Wings to target for the blue line. It doesn't help that every trade discussion Holland has been involved in for the past year or so seems to include Mantha.

[kipwinger 8,521]

Nobody is going to get another team's top prospect for a cast away player on an expiring contract. But they'd be dumb not to ask. Mantha is fine. I've always hated when Khan or St. James says "the asking price was Mantha" and that's why nothing got done. Bulls***. That's what negotiating is. Starting at the extreme and working in from there.