Lines Thread

[kipwinger 8,522]

Agreed that a second line center would help the team, but Weiss was supposed to be that and you'd have to get rid of him before you and another.

My point in showing this year's stats is that Helm and Sheahan are out producing Legwand. Helm isn't even playing very well and he's still out producing him. That's with Legwand apparently playing top line minutes. That doesn't sound like he would be a "real second line center." I wasn't suggesting that Helm or Sheahan are 2nd line centers - I was showing that Legwand wouldn't be a good option for that spot either.

Comparing Legwand and Helm after the first 20 games of this season is a lot like comparing them over the first 20 games of last season (e.g. totally meaningless). David Legwand was, is, and will be a better second line center than Darren Helm.

Also, he's not getting first line minutes. He's averaging 16:39 minutes per game. Kyle Turris is their first line center and he's averaging 19:34 minutes of ice time per game.

[Guest DeGraa55]

Agreed that a second line center would help the team, but Weiss was supposed to be that and you'd have to get rid of him before you and another.

My point in showing this year's stats is that Helm and Sheahan are out producing Legwand. Helm isn't even playing very well and he's still out producing him. That's with Legwand apparently playing top line minutes. That doesn't sound like he would be a "real second line center." I wasn't suggesting that Helm or Sheahan are 2nd line centers - I was showing that Legwand wouldn't be a good option for that spot either.

Why are you looking at stats from this season anyways? This decision would've been made in the offseason. And no if you sign him to a one year deal you DONT have to get rid of Weiss to acquire a second line center.

Cause IF Weiss worked out, which he hasn't, having to deal with a roster jam of good players is much better than dealing with a roster jam of the junk we have.

Again legwand>cleary and slight possibly of Alfie returning.

I'll take the almost sure thing every time. Again on a one year deal that's a no brainer. But management puts faith into Weiss and the other injury prone guys we have.

[joesuffP 1,746]

Great logic

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

I really didn't think that would be a controversial opinion.

Comparing Legwand and Helm after the first 20 games of this season is a lot like comparing them over the first 20 games of last season (e.g. totally meaningless). David Legwand was, is, and will be a better second line center than Darren Helm.

Also, he's not getting first line minutes. He's averaging 16:39 minutes per game. Kyle Turris is their first line center and he's averaging 19:34 minutes of ice time per game.

DeGrass suggested we needed "a true 2nd line center" and most would agree (whether or not they think Weiss can be that guy is another thing). For us I think a true 2nd line center would certainly be someone that produces more than the centers we have. I showed the stats this year to show Legwand isn't that guys currently. Neither Sheahan or Helm are 2nd line centers and they are producing more. 20 games is not a meaningless sample size.

"Comparing Legwand and Helm after the first 20 games of this season is a lot like comparing them over the first 20 games of last season." And a dog is a lot like a dog: I don't get what you are trying to say with this.

As for the "first line minutes" with the Senators comment. Higher on the page _SP_ made that claim. If it's not true, my fault for repeating it and not checking it. That doesn't really change much, though. He's on pace for around 24 points - that's not good for your 2nd line center.

Why are you looking at stats from this season anyways? This decision would've been made in the offseason. And no if you sign him to a one year deal you DONT have to get rid of Weiss to acquire a second line center.

I said I"m glad we didn't bring him back, that's why I used current stats. As in: "at this present moment he's producing less than our 2 3rd line centers, glad we're not tied up with this 34 year player who seems to be past his prime." Also didn't want him back at the time either: I think he served the purpose of getting through a period of injuries, but didn't impress me much, turned invisible, and played his way onto the 4th line.

[kipwinger 8,522]

I really didn't think that would be a controversial opinion.

DeGrass suggested we needed "a true 2nd line center" and most would agree (whether or not they think Weiss can be that guy is another thing). For us I think a true 2nd line center would certainly be someone that produces more than the centers we have. I showed the stats this year to show Legwand isn't that guys currently. Neither Sheahan or Helm are 2nd line centers and they are producing more. 20 games is not a meaningless sample size.

"Comparing Legwand and Helm after the first 20 games of this season is a lot like comparing them over the first 20 games of last season." And a dog is a lot like a dog: I don't get what you are trying to say with this.

As for the "first line minutes" with the Senators comment. Higher on the page _SP_ made that claim. If it's not true, my fault for repeating it and not checking it. That doesn't really change much, though. He's on pace for around 24 points - that's not good for your 2nd line center.

I said I"m glad we didn't bring him back, that's why I used current stats. As in: "at this present moment he's producing less than our 2 3rd line centers, glad we're not tied up with this 34 year player who seems to be past his prime." Also didn't want him back at the time either: I think he served the purpose of getting through a period of injuries, but didn't impress me much, turned invisible, and played his way onto the 4th line.

You didn't think that insinuating that Helm and Sheahan were equally viable second line centers to Legwand based on a sample size of 20 games would be controversial? I do. All of their respective careers suggest otherwise.

And after the first 10 games Tatar was on pace for 4 goals. So what? History has shown David Legwand to be a 40-50 pt. player. He scored 51 points a year ago and will probably be somewhere in that ballpark this year, despite his slow start. He didn't forget how to play hockey over the summer. Suggesting that he's not a better option than Helm, simply based on a 20 game sample size is hugely misleading.

A year ago Helm had 12 goals in 42 games. My guess is you didn't expect him to double that output this year did you? Why, because nothing in his career suggests he's capable of that.

So, like I said before. David Legwand is, was, and will be a better option for second line center than Darren Helm is. Despite his slow start.

Edited November 24, 2014 by kipwinger

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

You didn't think that insinuating that Helm and Sheahan were equally viable second line centers to Legwand based on a sample size of 20 games would be controversial? I do. All of their respective careers suggest otherwise.

And after the first 10 games Tatar was on pace for 4 goals. So what? History has shown David Legwand to be a 40-50 pt. player. He scored 51 points a year ago and will probably be somewhere in that ballpark this year, despite his slow start. He didn't forget how to play hockey over the summer. Suggesting that he's not a better option than Helm, simply based on a 20 game sample size is hugely misleading.

A year ago Helm had 12 goals in 42 games. My guess is you didn't expect him to double that output this year did you? Why, because nothing in his career suggests he's capable of that.

So, like I said before. David Legwand is, was, and will be a better option for second line center than Darren Helm is. Despite his slow start.

You have to reread my posts. I'm not going to do this back and forth thing with you kip, repeating things I've already said as you try to twist my words. Nowhere have I advocated for Helm as a viable 2nd line center. Wasn't comparing them as players except how much they are producing this year. I really don't care that much about David Legwand. Don't want him on my team. He's struggling, I thought he struggled at the end of last year. He's 34, cast off by a team that he played 15 years for. That is what I thought would be uncontroversial, but you twisted that. Agree to disagree.

Edited November 25, 2014 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[_SP_ 129]

From what I understand, Legwand is playing the wing on the first line.


Also, what do you all think of the list of centers that are going to be UFA's at the end of the year (the rentals you usually see moved at the deadline/in-season)?

Vermette seems to be the only viable option that would be moved. You don't usually see teams in a playoff position trading away their top-6 talent.

Weiss+Prospect+Pick? Does it cost you an additional NHL player too? Helm, Kindl, etc.? Do they want a defensive prospect?

I don't think he's signing an extension to stay out there. It's way far from home (Quebec City), the team is NOT trending upwards, and he's 32-years-old- he's not getting many more chances to play for a Stanley Cup or Team Canada. Flights are $300 round-trip from Detroit to home and back, his family can drive down for the weekend, etc. etc.

Short of going to Montreal, I don't see another team that is trending upward and still has star players like Detroit. Come here, be the #2 center, and make a huge push to win a Cup.

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Franzen

Tatar - Vermette - Nyquist
Helm - Sheahan - Abdelkader

Miller - Glendening - Callahan

Andersson - Cleary

Send Jurco down to Grand Rapids. Something's not clicking this year and I want him to get better, not float about at average. Call up Callahan, he's really having an outstanding year.

Kronwall - Ericsson

Smith - DeKeyser

Quincey - Ouellet

Lashoff

Grand Rapids doesn't change too, too much.

Pulkkinen - Nosek (healthy) - Jurco

Hoggan - Athanasiou - Campbell

Jensen - Marchenko
Backman - Paetsch
Evans - Sproul

Does it cost you Jurco to get a top-4 Defensemen? + Kindl, Ferraro, or a pick?

Sigh. I'm glad I'm not the GM.

[Guest DeGraa55]

If given the ideal choice i would prefer a winger leaving dat an z separated centerig their own lines.

[_SP_ 129]

If given the ideal choice i would prefer a winger leaving dat an z separated centerig their own lines.

Oh I agree 100%. I just feel Nyquist - Zetterberg - Franzen makes a really good second line. I think grabbing a top RW and going with Tats/Abdelkader - Datsyuk - Scoring RW best way to address the team's issues.

I was trying to address the concerns of those that stated we need a new #2 Center to make up for the injuries to Z and D.

Nick Foligno might be a good target. Young, UFA at the end of the year..

Edited November 25, 2014 by _SP_

[Guest DeGraa55]

Oh I agree 100%. I just feel Nyquist - Zetterberg - Franzen makes a really good second line. I think grabbing a top RW and going with Tats/Abdelkader - Datsyuk - Scoring RW best way to address the team's issues.

I was trying to address the concerns of those that stated we need a new #2 Center to make up for the injuries to Z and D.

Nick Foligno might be a good target. Young, UFA at the end of the year..

That was me as well but that's my backup plan.

Target number one in offseason and now for is a a winger for dats.

If unable then my back up plan would be a second line center allowing z to play on dats wing.

And given the players moved lately we had options and chances to do either but they seem content to throw all their eggs into the Weiss as number 2 center basket. Which could happen I'd just like something a little more set in stone for the shorts term(this year) cause long term we have a few more options....until dats retires....

[e_prime 1,936]

With the constant looming of injuries when it comes to Datsyuk and Zetterberg, I don't see a future that doesn't involve the Wings giving Weiss a shot at the number two center position he was supposed to be and was signed to be.

They need to EASE, not thrust, him back into the second line center position.

Evaluate if he can be our second line center going forward, if NOT

Evaluate if he can be a top line winger, if NOT

Evaluate his worth to the team vs. his cap-hit/salary, then and only then can we explore trade options for Weiss.

We're always clamoring for reclamation projects up in here... and well, we got one. We've had one.

Last night could be the preview to the coming out party that we've been wanting so badly.

(Even those who were against this signing from the get-go have to be happy about last night's play from Weiss.)

Ideally at the center position:

#1. Dats or Z (whichever is healthy -- if they're both healthy, great! Keep them together.)

#2. Weiss

#3. Sheahan

#4. Glendeniinnginiginng

Helm is your most expendable center with the most value. That being said, I don't see him being moved anytime soon especially when we still need to evaluate Weiss.

[Nyquistfan14 489]

@AnsarKhanMLive: Datsyuk centering line with Helm and Weiss. If Datsyuk plays tomorrow it looks like he'd replace Jurco in lineup.

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

@AnsarKhanMLive: Datsyuk centering line with Helm and Weiss. If Datsyuk plays tomorrow it looks like he'd replace Jurco in lineup.

Does that mean Weiss would get more than 10:42 ice time?

[Wheelchairsuperhero 1,453]

@AnsarKhanMLive: Datsyuk centering line with Helm and Weiss. If Datsyuk plays tomorrow it looks like he'd replace Jurco in lineup.

That's not a very attractive line.

[kipwinger 8,522]

Well I didn't think the Helm, Weiss, Jurco line would score and it did, so I'm just going to shut up. But man do I think that Datsyuk, Weiss, Helm line is doomed to failure. None of those guys averages more than about 130-140 shots a year.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

@AnsarKhanMLive: Datsyuk centering line with Helm and Weiss. If Datsyuk plays tomorrow it looks like he'd replace Jurco in lineup.

Yeah not the best looking line. We could call it the Too Many Centers line. Or maybe the Injured Reserve.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

I'm guessing Babs plans on limiting Dats' ice time in his first game back and he already limits Weiss' ice time as well so he put them together. Helm can do all the hard work out there forechecking.

[Dabura 12,207]

Legwand isn't really a top-six centerman. We put him in that role because we were super-desperate at the time. (He's only put up six points for Ottawa, and only two of those are goals.)

Personally, I'm not too concerned about the 2C spot. Sheahan, Helm, Weiss, Franzen - we have some non-Euro Twin options there, short-term and long-term. I think it'll work itself out. What does concern me is that we're on somewhat thin ice with our 1C situation. Datsyuk is struggling to stay healthy, Z looks like he's playing hurt, and no one in our pipeline projects as a top-line centerman and worthy successor to Datsyuk/Zetterberg. I'm willing to bet this is a key reason why big UFAs won't sign with the Wings. (That, and Babcock's future being up in the air.)

That's why Ryan O'Reilly's #1 on my wish list. He'd give us our elite two-way 1C of the future, and in the meantime you could use him as a top-line winger. I'd be willing to pay quite a bit for this guy.

[Dabura 12,207]

Re: today's practice -- I've kinda been hoping for Tatar-Sheahan-Franzen, so that much is cool. I also believe Abdelkader needs to be with Z and/or Nyquist at this time, so I also like that.

[Echolalia 2,961]

So we have Datsyuk on the third line now? That could be fun to watch

[joesuffP 1,746]

Datsyuk on the third line is very weird for me. eventually, I'd like to roll these lines assuming Dats is 100%

Nyquist-Datsyuk-Zetterberg

Abby-Sheahan-Tatar

Weiss-Helm-Franzen

Miller-Glendening-Andersson/Cleary

I know the top line doesn't have a gritty net front presence but with that much skill they should be able to make plays. Abby-Sheahan-Tatar seem to compliment each other very well. The trouble is Nyquist. His goal scoring is too valuable to be a 3rd liner but you don't want to separate the 2nd line.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Well I didn't think the Helm, Weiss, Jurco line would score and it did, so I'm just going to shut up. But man do I think that Datsyuk, Weiss, Helm line is doomed to failure. None of those guys averages more than about 130-140 shots a year.

Well you're kind of skewing statistics.

Weiss has averaged 2 shots/game and Datsyuk 2.5 shots/game since 2009

Over a full season that would put them at over 160 and 200 shots each.

[kipwinger 8,522]

Well you're kind of skewing statistics.

Weiss has averaged 2 shots/game and Datsyuk 2.5 shots/game since 2009

Over a full season that would put them at over 160 and 200 shots each.

Because it's reasonable to assume that both those guys will play a full 82 games this season, or going forward? I'm not skewing stats. I'm going by their totals. Neither of those two will ever play a full 82 games again. So why would you go by their full season projections?

Edited November 25, 2014 by kipwinger

[nawein 324]

Because it's reasonable to assume that both those guys will play a full 82 games this season, or going forward? I'm not skewing stats. I'm going by their totals. Neither of those two will ever play a full 82 games again. So why would you go by their full season projections?

Because a per game estimate is a far better predictor of what they'll do in a single game than their recent season totals would suggest. You'd be correct if they were playing the emtire season together, but they're not.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Because it's reasonable to assume that both those guys will play a full 82 games this season, or going forward? I'm not skewing stats. I'm going by their totals. Neither of those two will ever play a full 82 games again. So why would you go by their full season projections?

You mentioned that you think the Datsyuk Helm Weiss line is doomed to fail, and followed that up by saying none of the three of them averages more than 130-140 shots/year. That suggests that you expect the line to fail because they allegedly don't shoot the puck much, which is what Son of a Wing addressed by using a much more accurate shots/game average. Their season totals are that low due primarily to injuries, and to use full-season shot total to predict what kind of offensive output we can expect IS skewing stats (or at the very least is a poor choice of statistical values to use). With your value of 135 shots/year, it suggests an average of 1.6 shots/game, which is much lower than what they actually shoot. His response has absolutely nothing to do with playing a full season.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Echolalia