Lines Thread

[Jesusberg 1,256]

"@DetroitRedWings: Lines:

Z-Pav-Abby

Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco

Mule-Nyquist-Helm

Weiss-Glendening-Miller"

hmm interesting lines

Assuming Nyquist at C is a typo by DRW's twitter account - Khan has Helm at C right before DRW's Tweet.

Still, don't see how Weiss is on the 4th over Helm. Who's going to generate more offense? Honestly?

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

"@DetroitRedWings: Lines:

Z-Pav-Abby

Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco

Mule-Nyquist-Helm

Weiss-Glendening-Miller"

hmm interesting lines

I was going to post this.

The Nyquist thing baffled me.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Makes sense to have Weiss on the line with Glendening and Miller. You wouldn't want to disrupt any of the chemistry on the other lines, especially with all three lines firing on all cylinders.....

[kipwinger 8,522]

Makes sense to have Weiss on the line with Glendening and Miller. You wouldn't want to disrupt any of the chemistry on the other lines, especially with all three lines firing on all cylinders.....

Why not? Babs did the same thing last year in the playoffs with Legwand and we all remember how beautifully that worked out. But don't say his coaching stifles offense. Heaven forbid anyone say that.

Edit: In all fairness, I guess I should acknowledge that he's going to change all the lines about 30 seconds into the game so what does it matter? Put Kindl at forward to start the game for all the difference that would make.

Edited December 23, 2014 by kipwinger

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I was going to post this.

The Nyquist thing baffled me.

According to Khan here's what they skated with in practice:

Ansar Khan ‏@AnsarKhanMLive 48m48 minutes ago

Weiss skating on line with Glendening and Miller.

Other lines: Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader

Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco

Franzen-Helm-Nyquist

[amato 3,210]

According to Khan here's what they skated with in practice:

Ansar Khan ‏@AnsarKhanMLive 48m48 minutes ago

Weiss skating on line with Glendening and Miller.

Other lines: Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader

Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco

Franzen-Helm-Nyquist

yea must be a typo.. that makes more sense.

although i'd rather see weiss switch with helm personally.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

yea must be a typo.. that makes more sense.

although i'd rather see weiss switch with helm personally.

Agreed. I don't know if this is to ease Weiss back into the lineup given he's only played 11 games this season, or give him less responsibility as a winger to get him going or what.

It seemed crazy he started at wing for his return to the lineup, but Weiss managed to produce in that role. I'd just like him to work his way back to the 2nd line center he was supposed to be.

[kipwinger 8,522]

Agreed. I don't know if this is to ease Weiss back into the lineup given he's only played 11 games this season, or give him less responsibility as a winger to get him going or what.

It seemed crazy he started at wing for his return to the lineup, but Weiss managed to produce in that role. I'd just like him to work his way back to the 2nd line center he was supposed to be.

Or even the third line winger that he wasn't supposed to be, but seemed effective at being, and produced as.

The fourth line part is the thing that baffles me about this most recent lineup.

But like I said above, I'm sure it will last a half a period, so I'm going to try not to get too irritated about it.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

What a waste of Weiss. I get easing him back in from injury, but he can play on the third line with some actual skilled linemates like before at least. Are we worried about messing up the chemistry of six goals in six games or what?

Edited December 23, 2014 by GoWings1905

[Wheelchairsuperhero 1,453]

What a waste of Weiss. I get easing him back in from injury, but he can play on the third line with some some actual skilled linemates like before at least. Are we worried about messing up the chemistry of six goals in six games or what?

Agreed. Aren't these basically the same lines as last game that scored us one goal? Also, I hope the PP lines have changed back to what they were when it was actually working. Datsyuk and Zetterberg on the same unit has not garnered any results, not to mention it completely defangs the second unit.

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

Ya I thought having d and z together would enable Weiss to grab hold of that second Lind center position he was signed to be. Instead he is demoted to the 4th line, when we're struggling to get offense and the only proven 2nd line C we have is on the 4th line? But hey, don't bother scoring goals when you COULD just lose every game in a shootout.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

Who knows, maybe having Weiss on the fourth line will be like it was having Jurco down there.

They get a lot of chances just no one there had the hands to bury them.

Maybe Weiss can change that, plus I trust him more to shut down other teams top players then Jurco, and that's what our fourth line was doing a lot of.

But even so, I doubt these lines will stick tonight.

And even if they do(which babs has been changing lines a lot less this year) maybe it'll go well.

And its been said, but playing on the fourth line eases him back into the lineup.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

Sometimes I think this team has too much depth, and it creates situations where guys are playing out of their roles. I hate to use the phrase "trim the fat", but I think that's exactly what this team should do going into next season. Depending on performances, I think it would be smart to put together a package for a top 4 defender at the deadline.

I'd like to preface this by saying I'm not anti-Mule by any means, but I do think that Pulkkinen, Mantha and perhaps AA will be knocking on the door soon. My ideal (and totally unrealistic, because people probably wouldn't take on Mule's contract) package would be Franzen, Helm and Smith for someone like Green or Yandle. Some might think it's a little steep for a rental like Green, and I highly doubt it's even enough for Yandle in Arizona's eyes, but I think Detroit could retain Green next season and Yandle's got term. I'd put Kindl in there instead of Smith, but that doesn't solve freeing up a spot for Ouellet, and no one wants Kindl. The best we can hope to get for Kindl is a burnt, grilled cheese sandwich. Anyway, the whole point is to free up some space - better define roles on the team. I'd like to go into next season with something like this:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader
Tatar-Sheahan-Nyquist
Jurco-Weiss-Pulkkinen
Miller-Glendening-Callahan
Andersson, Ferraro/Burnt Grilled Cheese Sandwich

Kronwall-Ericsson
DeKeyser-Green/Yandle
Ouellet-Quincey
Lashoff

Howard
Mrazek

I'm sure this is all for naught, but I'm tired of seeing Helm pushed into scoring winger roles because we have proper center depth, and I think Mule becomes expendable very soon. This whole scenario might be a little kooky, but I've had like three candy cane hot chocolates, so whatever.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Jesusberg

[Wings_Toledo 233]

Sometimes I think this team has too much depth, and it creates situations where guys are playing out of their roles. I hate to use the phrase "trim the fat", but I think that's exactly what this team should do going into next season. Depending on performances, I think it would be smart to put together a package for a top 4 defender at the deadline.

I'd like to preface this by saying I'm not anti-Mule by any means, but I do think that Pulkkinen, Mantha and perhaps AA will be knocking on the door soon. My ideal (and totally unrealistic, because people probably wouldn't take on Mule's contract) package would be Franzen, Helm and Smith for someone like Green or Yandle. Some might think it's a little steep for a rental like Green, and I highly doubt it's even enough for Yandle in Arizona's eyes, but I think Detroit could retain Green next season and Yandle's got term. I'd put Kindl in there instead of Smith, but that doesn't solve freeing up a spot for Ouellet, and no one wants Kindl. The best we can hope to get for Kindl is a burnt, grilled cheese sandwich. Anyway, the whole point is to free up some space - better define roles on the team. I'd like to go into next season with something like this:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader

Tatar-Sheahan-Nyquist

Jurco-Weiss-Pulkkinen

Miller-Glendening-Callahan

Andersson, Ferraro/Burnt Grilled Cheese Sandwich

Kronwall-Ericsson

DeKeyser-Green/Yandle

Ouellet-Quincey

Lashoff

Howard

Mrazek

I'm sure this is all for naught, but I'm tired of seeing Helm pushed into scoring winger roles because we have proper center depth, and I think Mule becomes expendable very soon. This whole scenario might be a little kooky, but I've had like three candy cane hot chocolates, so whatever.

I know Yandle could help with the offense from the back end but his defensive inability makes me think that Franzen, Helm + Smith would be a huge overpayment for him. I'd say Franzen, (some forward), and a 1st or 2nd round pick maybe. Even then, I'd still rather see if Ouellet can develop into that kind of player before trading away depth. I don't know, there are just too many options to know what Holland will really do.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Wings_Toledo

[Jesusberg 1,256]

I know Yandle could help with the offense from the back end but his defensive inability makes me think that Franzen, Helm + Smith would be a huge overpayment for him. I'd say Franzen, (some forward), and a 1st or 2nd round pick maybe. Even then, I'd still rather see if Ouellet can develop into that kind of player before trading away depth. I don't know, there are just too many options to know what Holland will really do.

Green's got those defensive shortcomings, as well. Again, I'm not advocating moving depth for the sake of it. I think we've got someone in Pulkkinen who would excel in a scoring winger role more than Helm, and I believe Franzen is going to be surpassed by 3-4 wingers within two-three seasons. Perhaps moving Franzen right now is a bit much at the moment, but I feel like his value is going to decline quite a bit in the next few season. I would still do Helm, Smith and a pick/prospect for Green/Yandle, but I'm not sure that gets it done.

I just don't understand management sometimes. Kindl and Smith are guys who are going to excel on the PP, and struggle in other areas of the game. I swear, every time Smith has gotten a shred of time on the PP this season, he's done something with it. Yet, here he sits with an average of 19 seconds of PP time per game, despite how little Babcock wants to use Kindl. He's got little faith in them there, so what do you do with them? It's a situation where I wish Holland would s*** or get off the pot. If they're unwilling to use those guys in situations where they'll do well, find someone who will be used. Something has to give with the defense, anyway.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Green's got those defensive shortcomings, as well. Again, I'm not advocating moving depth for the sake of it. I think we've got someone in Pulkkinen who would excel in a scoring winger role more than Helm, and I believe Franzen is going to be surpassed by 3-4 wingers within two-three seasons. Perhaps moving Franzen right now is a bit much at the moment, but I feel like his value is going to decline quite a bit in the next few season. I would still do Helm, Smith and a pick/prospect for Green/Yandle, but I'm not sure that gets it done.

I just don't understand management sometimes. Kindl and Smith are guys who are going to excel on the PP, and struggle in other areas of the game. I swear, every time Smith has gotten a shred of time on the PP this season, he's done something with it. Yet, here he sits with an average of 19 seconds of PP time per game, despite how little Babcock wants to use Kindl. He's got little faith in them there, so what do you do with them? It's a situation where I wish Holland would s*** or get off the pot. If they're unwilling to use those guys in situations where they'll do well, find someone who will be used. Something has to give with the defense, anyway.

I'm definitely confused by the reluctance to use Smith on the power play and putting Kindl in as a "better" option.

Kindl is generally good at getting a shot through but as we saw last night, him being the lone man on the blue line in their PP formation is a scary thing. Could Smith really be worse?

I also don't understand why Babs keeps rotating Kindl into the lineup. How many times is he going to have to bench him during a game before he stops giving him yet another shot?

[Echolalia 2,961]

I'm definitely confused by the reluctance to use Smith on the power play and putting Kindl in as a "better" option.

Kindl is generally good at getting a shot through but as we saw last night, him being the lone man on the blue line in their PP formation is a scary thing. Could Smith really be worse?

I also don't understand why Babs keeps rotating Kindl into the lineup. How many times is he going to have to bench him during a game before he stops giving him yet another shot?

I've spent more time pondering why Smith gets no PP time than I have any right doing, and the only thing I can come up with is what you've just mentioned: that Smith's offense doesn't come from getting shots to the net through a line of bodies. He's more opportunistic and pinches when there's a breakdown defensively (which teams don't do when they're shorthanded). For all of Kindl's shortcomings, he does know how to get pucks to the net. Considering our offensive drought, I also think that's the only reason Kindl is playing over Lashoff- to help spark the teak offensively, even if it means more chances going the other way. If the Wings were losing games 6-5, I think Kindl is benched at this point and Lashoff is given a chance (although honestly I think Lashoff isn't any better than Kindl defensively). But we've been losing games 2-1 and offense is needed. At least that's how I'm seeing things.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I've spent more time pondering why Smith gets no PP time than I have any right doing, and the only thing I can come up with is what you've just mentioned: that Smith's offense doesn't come from getting shots to the net through a line of bodies. He's more opportunistic and pinches when there's a breakdown defensively (which teams don't do when they're shorthanded). For all of Kindl's shortcomings, he does know how to get pucks to the net. Considering our offensive drought, I also think that's the only reason Kindl is playing over Lashoff- to help spark the teak offensively, even if it means more chances going the other way. If the Wings were losing games 6-5, I think Kindl is benched at this point and Lashoff is given a chance (although honestly I think Lashoff isn't any better than Kindl defensively). But we've been losing games 2-1 and offense is needed. At least that's how I'm seeing things.

I'm not sure if you caught the game last night, but after how he performed then, I'd be surprised to see Kindl in the lineup anytime soon. Babcock had him glued to the bench other than the PP, until Kronwall got hurt. Maybe now Smith will see more PP time.

I do think Lashoff is better defensively. He's more physical around his own net and plays simple. He's not afraid to get hit to make a play. Kindl is by far a more skilled player, but the end result isn't better.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

I'm not sure if you caught the game last night, but after how he performed then, I'd be surprised to see Kindl in the lineup anytime soon. Babcock had him glued to the bench other than the PP, until Kronwall got hurt. Maybe now Smith will see more PP time.

I do think Lashoff is better defensively. He's more physical around his own net and plays simple. He's not afraid to get hit to make a play. Kindl is by far a more skilled player, but the end result isn't better.

I agree 100% about lash.

That's why I like him.

Head the perfect seventh d man.

The only problem is this is his upside unless he gets drastically faster, wayyyy more physical, or develops a better shot.

Which would be cool, its just unlikely.

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

I'm definitely confused by the reluctance to use Smith on the power play and putting Kindl in as a "better" option.

Kindl is generally good at getting a shot through but as we saw last night, him being the lone man on the blue line in their PP formation is a scary thing. Could Smith really be worse?

I also don't understand why Babs keeps rotating Kindl into the lineup. How many times is he going to have to bench him during a game before he stops giving him yet another shot?

Not worse but certainly not better either. As much as I like Smith in my opinion he would be very prone to breakaways because of the pinching Echolia mentioned above. I'd suggest DeKeyser. He developed a mean shot and is stronger on defense than Smith.

Kindl indeed had a very bad game last night, costing us at least two goals and almost was responsible for a third (a combination of Mrazek and dumb luck saved him). Pretty hard to defend and trade him right now, despite his undoubted offensive qualities. Wouldn't blame the Wings if they wave him but if they do they can probably also wave goodbye to Greene and/or Yandle because of capspace. Not a comfortable situation for Holland.

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

I'm not sure if you caught the game last night, but after how he performed then, I'd be surprised to see Kindl in the lineup anytime soon. Babcock had him glued to the bench other than the PP, until Kronwall got hurt. Maybe now Smith will see more PP time.

I do think Lashoff is better defensively. He's more physical around his own net and plays simple. He's not afraid to get hit to make a play. Kindl is by far a more skilled player, but the end result isn't better.

Even with that Kindl only scraped 12:23 ice time

[Jesusberg 1,256]

Not worse but certainly not better either. As much as I like Smith in my opinion he would be very prone to breakaways because of the pinching Echolia mentioned above. I'd suggest DeKeyser. He developed a mean shot and is stronger on defense than Smith.

Kindl indeed had a very bad game last night, costing us at least two goals and almost was responsible for a third (a combination of Mrazek and dumb luck saved him). Pretty hard to defend and trade him right now, despite his undoubted offensive qualities. Wouldn't blame the Wings if they wave him but if they do they can probably also wave goodbye to Greene and/or Yandle because of capspace. Not a comfortable situation for Holland.

I agree about Smith, but I don't think it would be the pinching that would get him in trouble on the PP - it would be the way he handled the puck. My worry with Smith is basically what happens with Kindl on a regular basis - mishandling the puck and poor shot selection.

I wasn't really a fan of DeKeyser on the PP when he started there, but I think he keeps it simple and that works with the formation they're using this year. If Smith could simplify things, I think he could work on the 2nd unit. He's got better offensive instincts than DeKeyser, and I don't think they're limited being the late man joining the rush and finding passing lanes. Last night was an example of his puck moving skills, IMO. Kept his head up; quick puck distribution over to Tatar. As well as DK controls the puck, sometimes I think he's a little slow on the distribution. I'd like to see Smith take over on the 2nd unit, but at this point it looks like it's DeKeyser's spot to lose.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

Referring to the "Trim the Fat" post. I would agree with your statement.

I would be willing to move the following guys in a package:

Franzen (even with salary retained)

Helm or Abdelkader

Ericsson

2016 1st - as a sweetener (also considering our 1st this year is likely the top 6 C prospect we need to go with Larkin)

If we could move some or most of those players out while brining in a top 4 RH dman I think we will be in a good position to bring in some youth.

Zetterberg - Datysuk - Mantha

Tatar - Sheahan - Nyquist

Jurco - Weiss - Pulkkinen

Miller - Glendening - Abby/Helm

With AA, Larkin, 2015 1st rounder, Nosek waiting in the wings (great to have these assets with a stacked roster)

Kronwall - Top 4 RHD

Dekeyser - Smith

Ouellet - Quincey

Lashoff

Phase in Sproul, Jensen, Marchenko for Lashoff and Quincey after his contract is up

Ditch/Waive Kindl who cares just gtfo

[Echolalia 2,961]

I'm not sure if you caught the game last night, but after how he performed then, I'd be surprised to see Kindl in the lineup anytime soon. Babcock had him glued to the bench other than the PP, until Kronwall got hurt. Maybe now Smith will see more PP time.

I do think Lashoff is better defensively. He's more physical around his own net and plays simple. He's not afraid to get hit to make a play. Kindl is by far a more skilled player, but the end result isn't better.

Admittedly, I only saw the first period of the game before I had family stuff to deal with. I can agree that Lashoff is better with some of the physical aspects of the game, but I really disagree with some of the decisions he makes, and his gap control through the neutral zone/defensive blue line(although not too shabby so far this year) has been atrocious at times. Frankly there's a reason that Oulette has been playing over both Kindl and Lashoff.

Not worse but certainly not better either. As much as I like Smith in my opinion he would be very prone to breakaways because of the pinching Echolia mentioned above. I'd suggest DeKeyser. He developed a mean shot and is stronger on defense than Smith.

I do want to clarify that I don't think that he would be pinching on the powerplay the way he might during a 5 on 5 defensive breakdown by the other team. I don't think Smith would be more of a defensive liability than Kindl, or any forward playing the blue line on the powerplay for that matter. I just don't know if Smith's skillset at this point in his career is sufficient to be effective on a powerplay. His offensive production generally comes from hopping into the play on an odd-man rush, or slipping into the slot or weak-side during a defensive breakdown. He isn't so good at generating offense when the other team is playing their positions well. On the powerplay, there are no odd-man rushes, and breakdowns are rare. The shorthanded team will always play tight to the slot and very conservatively. Smith doesn't excel at generating scoring chances in these types of scenarios. I don't know if I was clear or not on that in my original post, or maybe you were just adding your own views to something I had mentioned, but I did want to clarify this point just in case.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

Admittedly, I only saw the first period of the game before I had family stuff to deal with. I can agree that Lashoff is better with some of the physical aspects of the game, but I really disagree with some of the decisions he makes, and his gap control through the neutral zone/defensive blue line(although not too shabby so far this year) has been atrocious at times. Frankly there's a reason that Oulette has been playing over both Kindl and Lashoff.

I do want to clarify that I don't think that he would be pinching on the powerplay the way he might during a 5 on 5 defensive breakdown by the other team. I don't think Smith would be more of a defensive liability than Kindl, or any forward playing the blue line on the powerplay for that matter. I just don't know if Smith's skillset at this point in his career is sufficient to be effective on a powerplay. His offensive production generally comes from hopping into the play on an odd-man rush, or slipping into the slot or weak-side during a defensive breakdown. He isn't so good at generating offense when the other team is playing their positions well. On the powerplay, there are no odd-man rushes, and breakdowns are rare. The shorthanded team will always play tight to the slot and very conservatively. Smith doesn't excel at generating scoring chances in these types of scenarios. I don't know if I was clear or not on that in my original post, or maybe you were just adding your own views to something I had mentioned, but I did want to clarify this point just in case.

My only issue here is... do we really know this? Don't get me wrong, I do think he'd have issues on the PP, but do we really have an idea of what he looks like on the PP? Last season, I believe he played the left point with Kronwall, before they started using the 1-3-1 formation - he never really got the chance to man the point. Leaves you wondering what he looks like in practice on the PP, and perhaps that being the reason Babcock has kept him off of it.

I see Smith's passing as a plus - I think he passes the puck accurately, and fairly quickly. IT does the PP good to get the puck around quick. One of the things they mentioned early on is that they weren't opening anything up, because the distribution was too slow.

On the flipside, I see Smith's pass reception and puck handling skills as a minus, which, tied to the part of your post that I underlined could cause all kinds of fun problems if he's manning the blueline. I swear, every time I see him receive a pass, I worry a little. He's gotten better, but I always have visions of the puck bouncing off his stick, and then him scrambling to recover it. He also seems to have a tendency to whiff on his passes sometimes. When he does those things in the defensive zone, he's got some time to recover. If the PK forwards are playing him tight at the point... yikes. Maybe we were saying the same thing here.

That being said, I'd still like to see him on there over Kindl for sure. I can assume he's going to have these issues on the point, but they've given him something like 10 minutes of PP time total, all season. I mean, I think it's an option worth exploring, at least.