Lines Thread

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Pavel hasn't been "feeding" Tatar anything. Pav has assisted on 6 of Tatar's goals. The same number that Sheahan has assisted on. And just ahead of Nyquist and Dekeyser, who have each assisted on 5 of his goals.

That's not Datsyuk's fault Tatar doesn't bury his chances.

[kipwinger 8,524]

Why do you feel the need to argue everything anyone says? It's almost as if you analyze everything that's written here and try to pick out that one word that you can argue... So what if Datsyuk only assisted on 6 of Tatar's goals? Maybe "fed" wasn't the proper word to use, but can you argue that having Datsyuk on his line doesn't open up some space for Tatar, allowing him to score more? Or are you arguing that Nyquist shouldn't be on a line with Zetterberg for that same reason, despite being 3rd on the team in goals? Or are you seriously just arguing that one misuse of the word "fed"?...

I'm sure you agree that Tatar should remain on Datsyuk's wing, so why bother researching such stats just to refute what he was saying? The premise of his argument still stands. Datsyuk and Tatar should be locked on a line together, and I believe Zetterberg and Nyquist should be locked on a line together for the same reason; they work really well together. On the other wing you can throw any one of Cole, Abdelkader, Helm, or Jurco and I'd be fine with that.

Because the alternative would be to read what's posted here and NOT verify whether or not it's true. Which would make me retarded.

[number9 3,297]

Why do you feel the need to argue everything anyone says? It's almost as if you analyze everything that's written here and try to pick out that one word that you can argue... So what if Datsyuk only assisted on 6 of Tatar's goals? Maybe "fed" wasn't the proper word to use, but can you argue that having Datsyuk on his line doesn't open up some space for Tatar, allowing him to score more? Or are you arguing that Nyquist shouldn't be on a line with Zetterberg for that same reason, despite being 3rd on the team in goals? Or are you seriously just arguing that one misuse of the word "fed"?...

I'm sure you agree that Tatar should remain on Datsyuk's wing, so why bother researching such stats just to refute what he was saying? The premise of his argument still stands. Datsyuk and Tatar should be locked on a line together, and I believe Zetterberg and Nyquist should be locked on a line together for the same reason; they work really well together. On the other wing you can throw any one of Cole, Abdelkader, Helm, or Jurco and I'd be fine with that.

I think the point was simply: no, Datsyuk doesn't feed Tatar his goals. Tatar is very capable of generating his own offense with or without Dats. Not sure why u take issue with that, it's true.

That being said they should stay on a line together, it works good.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Because the alternative would be to read what's posted here and NOT verify whether or not it's true. Which would make me retarded.

Whether involved in the conversation or not, you consider yourself "retarded" if you don't verify everyone's posts?

[kipwinger 8,524]

Whether involved in the conversation or not, you consider yourself "retarded" if you don't verify everyone's posts?

I'd be a real fool to read something that doesn't seem right (e.g. Datsyuk feeds Tatar his goals), and not check to see if it's true or not. I'll be stupid, gullible, or a rube if I just took everybody's word for it.

And before you ask, the reason it didn't "seem right" is because I already know that Tatar has better possession numbers than Datsyuk, and I already know that he played significantly on Sheahan's wing before moving to the top line. So it's not unreasonable to think that he creates his own offense. Which would contradict the insinuation that Datsyuk is primarily responsible for Tatar's production by "feeding" him goals.

[WingsallTheway 383]

I think Gus is best on the third line. This season, he seems to produce best there and doesn't do as much in the top 6. He does seem to have chemistry with Z though

Cole or Abby should be with datsyuk IMO. I've liked Tatar with Dats as well. If Cole and Abby are both with Z, its fun to see Pulks up on the top line but I'm sure it will be Helm.

Edited March 18, 2015 by WingsallTheway

[amato 3,210]

Tatar and Nyquist are good in their own right.. and only getting better. But of course playing with Pav and Z will make them play better. It'll help them get better faster too.

[krsmith17 7,191]

The locks in my lineup would be something like this...

Tatar - Datsyuk -

Nyquist - Zetterberg -

- Sheahan -

Miller - Glendening -

Leaving 7 players (Cole, Abdelkader, Helm, Weiss, Jurco, Pulkkinen and Franzen (when healthy)) to slot in the other 5 spots.

A couple weeks ago I was flamed for putting Abby in that 4th line spot and in hindsight it would have obviously been the wrong call. But in my opinion, of those 7 guys Abdelkader and Helm are the best options for that spot. However, both have proven that they fit well into the top 6 as well... I don't like Jurco down there because I don't believe it is benefitting his development and I would much rather see him sent down to Grand Rapids for the playoffs than see him wasted away on the 4th line. Weiss is worthless on the 4th line and I think he should probably be slotted in on the 3rd line. I think Cole can be used on any of the top 3 lines. If Franzen does come back for the playoffs this season (I am doubtful) I think he would be best suited on that 3rd line as well. Either way you look at it, we are extremely deep up front and at least one player is going to be sitting that probably shouldn't be, in favor of Joakim f***ing Andersson, or playing on the 4th line when they shouldn't be...

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

I'd be a real fool to read something that doesn't seem right (e.g. Datsyuk feeds Tatar his goals), and not check to see if it's true or not. I'll be stupid, gullible, or a rube if I just took everybody's word for it.

And before you ask, the reason it didn't "seem right" is because I already know that Tatar has better possession numbers than Datsyuk, and I already know that he played significantly on Sheahan's wing before moving to the top line. So it's not unreasonable to think that he creates his own offense. Which would contradict the insinuation that Datsyuk is primarily responsible for Tatar's production by "feeding" him goals.

K bugs

Edit: guess I can't embed videos from my phone anymore

Edited March 18, 2015 by Euro_Twins

[kipwinger 8,524]

To say nothing about the possible chemistry, matchups, defense, etc., I will say this about Tatar being a "lock" to play with Datsyuk.

Prior to being paired with Datsyuk and Helm, Tatar had 10 goals in 26 games (.38 goals per game). Since being paired with Pav and Helm he's scored 15 goals in 42 games (.35 goals per game).

Datsyuk was noticeably better without Tatar than with him, in terms of production. Dats had 11 goals in 15 games without Tatar and Helm, and 12 goals in 42 games with them.

Finally, Helm had 4 goals in 26 games before joining that line. And 9 goals in 35 games since.

So, of the three, only Helm's goal scoring production has improved since that line was put together.

Caveats: This says nothing about the affect that this line may have on others. Maybe it allows other guys to be slotted more appropriately. Maybe, it gets the hard matchups and therefore allows other lines to produce more. I don't know.

Also, I've only looked at offensive production, and within that area I've only looked at goal scoring. So take it for what it's worth.

But on the basis of this alone, if your primary goal is to get MORE goals out of Tatar and Datsyuk...you should split them up.

[barabbas16 499]

The locks in my lineup would be something like this...

Tatar - Datsyuk -

Nyquist - Zetterberg -

- Sheahan -

Miller - Glendening -

Leaving 7 players (Cole, Abdelkader, Helm, Weiss, Jurco, Pulkkinen and Franzen (when healthy)) to slot in the other 5 spots.

A couple weeks ago I was flamed for putting Abby in that 4th line spot and in hindsight it would have obviously been the wrong call. But in my opinion, of those 7 guys Abdelkader and Helm are the best options for that spot. However, both have proven that they fit well into the top 6 as well... I don't like Jurco down there because I don't believe it is benefitting his development and I would much rather see him sent down to Grand Rapids for the playoffs than see him wasted away on the 4th line. Weiss is worthless on the 4th line and I think he should probably be slotted in on the 3rd line. I think Cole can be used on any of the top 3 lines. If Franzen does come back for the playoffs this season (I am doubtful) I think he would be best suited on that 3rd line as well. Either way you look at it, we are extremely deep up front and at least one player is going to be sitting that probably shouldn't be, in favor of Joakim f***ing Andersson, or playing on the 4th line when they shouldn't be...

In my opinion, Weiss and Jurco haven't done anything to deserve a top 9 forward spot over Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Tatar, Nyquist, Abdelkader, Helm, Sheahan, Cole, and Pulkkinen (or Franzen if he ever comes back).

And, they (Weiss and Jurco) do not fit as well or perform the necessary roles as well as Andersson does for the 4th line. I wish they did, because they obviously should provide more offense than the virtually none that Andersson brings.... but they don't.

They haven't earned a top 9 spot and they don't fit on the 4th line.

I wanted Weiss to turn back into the player he was in Florida too, but he hasn't. I wanted Jurco to grow as a player this year and build upon what he did last year too, but he hasn't.

Edited March 18, 2015 by barabbas16

[krsmith17 7,191]

That's your problem Kip, all you ever look at is stats... This is an honest question, and I don't mean any offense to it whatsoever. Do you actually watch all of the games, or do you just look at the box scores and stat sheets after each game? You honestly believe that because Tatar scored 0.03 goals per game less since he's been put on Datsyuk's wing that he is better without him? Seriously?? Players and lines go through hot streaks and cold streaks, there is nothing more to it then that in my opinion. Fact is, the line of Tatar - Datsyuk - Helm looked great when they were together. That doesn't mean they have to score every single night to have success either.

I agree barabbas, which is why I would honestly like to see Jurco sent down to Grand Rapids for the rest of the season once Helm comes back.

[kipwinger 8,524]

That's your problem Kip, all you ever look at is stats... This is an honest question, and I don't mean any offense to it whatsoever. Do you actually watch all of the games, or do you just look at the box scores and stat sheets after each game? You honestly believe that because Tatar scored 0.03 goals per game less since he's been put on Datsyuk's wing that he is better without him? Seriously?? Players and lines go through hot streaks and cold streaks, there is nothing more to it then that in my opinion. Fact is, the line of Tatar - Datsyuk - Helm looked great when they were together. That doesn't mean they have to score every single night to have success either.

I agree barabbas, which is why I would honestly like to see Jurco sent down to Grand Rapids for the rest of the season once Helm comes back.

I'm not really sure how you're not meaning offense, and telling me I've got a "problem" at the same time. But ok.

To answer what I think your question probably is. Yes, I watch every game. Either during game play, or with the help of my DVR. However, because I don't rely on the "eyeball test", I don't automatically assume that what I see, and the empirical reality, are the same thing. Why? Because seeing and believing are both frequently wrong.

And why do I think that? Because I perform statistical analysis, and policy review for the Department of Defense all day. And would you like to know what one of the most common things we find is?

That what we hear when we ask people their opinions, and what we find when we use empirical methodology and statistical analysis to determine the reality, are often starkly different.

Edit: Also, I didn't ever say Tatar and Datsyuk were "better" without one another. I said that so far this season, they've each scored goals more prodigiously when not on a line with one another, which is empirically true.

Edited March 18, 2015 by kipwinger

[Buppy 1,720]

I think Jurco fits just fine on the 4th line. He's faster and more physical than Andersson, and I don't think the drop-off defensively is that drastic. With Helm in the lineup, we don't need Andy to kill penalties.

Tatar-Datsyuk-Cole

Nyquist-Zetterberg-Abby

Helm-Sheahan-Pulkkinen

Miller-Glendening-Jurco

[puckbags 863]

I think Jurco fits just fine on the 4th line. He's faster and more physical than Andersson, and I don't think the drop-off defensively is that drastic. With Helm in the lineup, we don't need Andy to kill penalties.

Tatar-Datskyu-Cole

Nyquist-Zetterberg-Abby

Helm-Sheahan-Pulkkinen

Miller-Glendening-Jurco

Going to have to re think this now. Pav out at least 2 games.

[kipwinger 8,524]

I think Jurco fits just fine on the 4th line. He's faster and more physical than Andersson, and I don't think the drop-off defensively is that drastic. With Helm in the lineup, we don't need Andy to kill penalties.

Tatar-Datsyuk-Cole

Nyquist-Zetterberg-Abby

Helm-Sheahan-Pulkkinen

Miller-Glendening-Jurco

Do you think it would be preferable to put Abby with Datsyuk, and Cole with Zetterberg, considering Abby is more familiar with Datsyuk's style of play? Datsyuk is the more unconventional player, and while Cole is still learning the system it might be easier for him to play with Z.

Just a thought.

[mvanpop 98]

Helm just about to return and Datsyuk out. Come on

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Do you think it would be preferable to put Abby with Datsyuk, and Cole with Zetterberg, considering Abby is more familiar with Datsyuk's style of play? Datsyuk is the more unconventional player, and while Cole is still learning the system it might be easier for him to play with Z.

Just a thought.

Sounds like an eyeball test analysis...

[kipwinger 8,524]

Sounds like an eyeball test analysis...

Not really. I didn't perform any analysis whatsoever. I pondered a question based on an observation that I've made. And as I stated above, observations (including my own) are often wrong. Hence the need for analysis.

I sure hope your take away from everything I said above was not, "Don't ever make an observation". Because that wouldn't be correct. My point was, "don't ever confuse observations with reality unless you've verified them".

Edited March 18, 2015 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

Beat me to it Son of a Wing, also to add to the eye ball test, is it really that smart to separate Abdelkader and Zetterberg right now? I mean think back on Abby's crazy streak over the past few games. Why did he have that streak? Because of Zetterberg and his amazing vision and stretch passes. Not saying Pav couldn't or wouldn't pull off the same magic because he has obviously proven that he can and most likely would. But really, is suggesting splitting up Abby and Hank any less crazy than I was a couple weeks ago for suggesting putting Abby on the 4th line??? And by the way, I am admitting that it would have been a bad move...

[kipwinger 8,524]

Beat me to it Son of a Wing, also to add to the eye ball test, is it really that smart to separate Abdelkader and Zetterberg right now? I mean think back on Abby's crazy streak over the past few games. Why did he have that streak? Because of Zetterberg and his amazing vision and stretch passes. Not saying Pav couldn't or wouldn't pull off the same magic because he has obviously proven that he can and most likely would. But really, is suggesting splitting up Abby and Hank any less crazy than I was a couple weeks ago for suggesting putting Abby on the 4th line??? And by the way, I am admitting that it would have been a bad move...

See above. The two of you know the difference between observation and analysis right?

[Buppy 1,720]

Do you think it would be preferable to put Abby with Datsyuk, and Cole with Zetterberg, considering Abby is more familiar with Datsyuk's style of play? Datsyuk is the more unconventional player, and while Cole is still learning the system it might be easier for him to play with Z.

Just a thought.

Could be, though I think Cole is experienced enough to handle it. But I see Cole, Abby, and Helm as being pretty interchangeable. My thought was to have Helm on the 3rd line to save energy for a larger PK role, but if Cole were to struggle with Datsyuk, they could be swapped. Hank and Abby have been good together so I wouldn't want to split them atm.

With Datsyuk out:

Nyquist-Zetterberg-Abby

Tatar-Sheahan-Cole

Helm-Weiss-Pulkkinen

Miller-Glendening-Jurco

Wow. That seems so much worse, and I still kinda like Weiss...

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

See above. The two of you know the difference between observation and analysis right?

I'm still too busy googling "prodigiously"

[kipwinger 8,524]

Could be, though I think Cole is experienced enough to handle it. But I see Cole, Abby, and Helm as being pretty interchangeable. My thought was to have Helm on the 3rd line to save energy for a larger PK role, but if Cole were to struggle with Datsyuk, they could be swapped. Hank and Abby have been good together so I wouldn't want to split them atm.

With Datsyuk out:

Nyquist-Zetterberg-Abby

Tatar-Sheahan-Cole

Helm-Weiss-Pulkkinen

Miller-Glendening-Jurco

Wow. That seems so much worse, and I still kinda like Weiss...

I thought Weiss looked decent when Zetterberg was out, Sheahan was on the second line, and Weiss was back at center. I don't think the wing plays to his strengths. He seems to see the ice well, and is good and recognizing plays as they develop. He seems pretty bad at winning board battles.

I agree with Cole, Abby, and Helm being pretty interchangeable. My question had more to do with easing Cole's transition than some conclusion about their abilities.

Edited March 18, 2015 by kipwinger

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

I thought Weiss looked decent when Zetterberg was out, Sheahan was on the second line, and Weiss was back at center. I don't think the wing plays to his strengths. He seems to see the ice well, and is good and recognizing plays as they develop. He seems pretty bad at winning board battles.

I agree with Cole, Abby, and Helm being pretty interchangeable. My question had more to do with easing Cole's transition than some conclusion about their abilities.

Now THAT'S an observation...