Lines Thread

[krsmith17 7,191]

Kip, the same way you pick one word out of someone's post to argue it, you pick one sentence out of a post to respond to. You always do it. No response to the rest of my last post, but I understand why you wouldn't want to respond to the second last sentence... I get it.

[kipwinger 8,492]

Now THAT'S an observation...

Bingo.

And it's clearly presented as such. And when I said, "Tatar has a better goals per game without Datsyuk than with him", it was a fact.

Are we clear now, or are you just going to go through each of my posts and highlight when I offer an opinion versus when I state a fact?

Kip, the same way you pick one word out of someone's post to argue it, you pick one sentence out of a post to respond to. You always do it. No response to the rest of my last post, but I understand why you wouldn't want to respond to the second last sentence... I get it.

I responded to the part of your last post which was applicable to me.

The rest of your post was pointless because I didn't say "Split Abby and Hank up", as you're insinuating. I asked Buppy a question based on an observation I made. I was hoping his answer, and our subsequent discourse, would be pleasant and informative.

All of which is quite a lot different than you saying that "Abby should be on the fourth line and Jurco the third". Which was just dumb.

Edited March 18, 2015 by kipwinger

[barabbas16 499]

I think Jurco fits just fine on the 4th line. He's faster and more physical than Andersson, and I don't think the drop-off defensively is that drastic. With Helm in the lineup, we don't need Andy to kill penalties.

Tatar-Datsyuk-Cole

Nyquist-Zetterberg-Abby

Helm-Sheahan-Pulkkinen

Miller-Glendening-Jurco

As you are getting at… with a healthy lineup the PK could use Miller/Glendening and Helm/Sheahan or Helm/Adbelkader. That’s true and possible.

However, Jurco and Andersson both have averaged around 11:35 per game this season. Neither has provided much offense to speak of at all. Neither plays on the Power Play. Only one plays on the Penalty Kill.

So, would you rather have your 4^th line winger playing 11.5 minutes at even strength and have your top nine forwards (that produce more offensively) play less at even strength and more on the PK?

Or, would you rather have your 4^th line winger eat those PK minutes up and allow your top nine forwards (that produce more offensively) to have more access to the minutes during which your team is more likely to score?

I’d rather have the latter. Sure, you’d possibly be getting a point every 8 games from said 4^th line winger instead of a point every 4 games. But, even that isn’t a fair comparison since Jurco has spent time this season playing with solid offensive forwards in offensive situations and Andersson has not had any such opportunities at all.

[krsmith17 7,191]

You suggested splitting up Abdelkader and Zetterberg, and I asked YOU if splitting up Abby and Hank is any less crazy than putting Abby on my hypothetical 4th line... How is that not applicable to you? Only because you didn't want to respond...

You also need to take into account how Abdelkader was playing prior to my suggestion and how he has been playing since. And also, that I specifically said it was nothing against Abby, but with us being extremely deep up front, someone would have to be relegated, and Abby was just my choice. It could have been Helm and someone would have argued, it could have been Jurco, and I personally don't like him there, or it could have been Andersson, and I'm not if any Wings fan likes him there...

Anyway, don't bother responding. Carry on...

[kipwinger 8,492]

You suggested splitting up Abdelkader and Zetterberg, and I asked YOU if splitting up Abby and Hank is any less crazy than putting Abby on my hypothetical 4th line... How is that not applicable to you? Only because you didn't want to respond...

You also need to take into account how Abdelkader was playing prior to my suggestion and how he has been playing since. And also, that I specifically said it was nothing against Abby, but with us being extremely deep up front, someone would have to be relegated, and Abby was just my choice. It could have been Helm and someone would have argued, it could have been Jurco, and I personally don't like him there, or it could have been Andersson, and I'm not if any Wings fan likes him there...

Anyway, don't bother responding. Carry on...

Prior to your proposed lineup change, Abdelkader was having the best season of his career and Jurco hadn't scored in 30+ games. It was only slightly less dumb then than now. But still massively dumb. As I articulated at the time.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I'm completely okay with you thinking it was "dumb", that doesn't bother me at all. But like I said numerous times, I could have put anyone else down there and somebody would have had something to say about it. That's the beauty of this Lines Thread. Nobody is going to make a lineup that everyone unanimously agrees to. Every lineup will get s*** on by someone, so whatever... But you do admit that it would be just as, if not more "dumb" to split up Abdelkader and Zetterberg at this point, correct?

[kipwinger 8,492]

I'm completely okay with you thinking it was "dumb", that doesn't bother me at all. But like I said numerous times, I could have put anyone else down there and somebody would have had something to say about it. That's the beauty of this Lines Thread. Nobody is going to make a lineup that everyone unanimously agrees to. Every lineup will get s*** on by someone, so whatever... But you do admit that it would be just as, if not more "dumb" to split up Abdelkader and Zetterberg at this point, correct?

No. Putting Abby with Datsyuk is not "just as, if not more dumb" than putting him on the fourth line. Unreal.

Because I wasn't suggesting moving Abby to a place that would completely negate his production (like the fourth line). I was questioning whether it might be good to temporarily put Abby with Datsyuk, a guy he's been nearly as good with throughout the season, in order to maintain Cole's current production.

The point was that you don't lose much by moving Abby to a line with Datsyuk, because he already knows how to play with Datsyuk and he's been effective on Datsyuk's wing in the past. Conversely Cole is also producing really well, but unlike Abby, he hasn't played with Pav in the past. And it seems like some players have trouble adjusting to Pav's style (Nyquist, for instance, still doesn't play well with Pav). I was asking Buppy which had the greater risk/reward: Moving Abby and potentially making him a little less effective, or moving Cole and potentially making him a lot less effective.

Buppy understood this, and responded immediately and without issue. You're the only one still having trouble with it.

Edited March 18, 2015 by kipwinger

[LeftWinger 4,934]

Nyquist - Z - Cole

Abby - Sheahan - Tatar

Helm - Weiss - Pulkkamania

Miller - Andy - Glenny

If you rotated Abby and Nyquist, that would be fine too, but Abby and Cole are similar players and would probably wash each other out. No biggie though, Nyquist - Sheahan - Tatar would be an awesome line too!

[Buppy 1,720]

As you are getting at… with a healthy lineup the PK could use Miller/Glendening and Helm/Sheahan or Helm/Adbelkader. That’s true and possible.

However, Jurco and Andersson both have averaged around 11:35 per game this season. Neither has provided much offense to speak of at all. Neither plays on the Power Play. Only one plays on the Penalty Kill.

So, would you rather have your 4^th line winger playing 11.5 minutes at even strength and have your top nine forwards (that produce more offensively) play less at even strength and more on the PK?

Or, would you rather have your 4^th line winger eat those PK minutes up and allow your top nine forwards (that produce more offensively) to have more access to the minutes during which your team is more likely to score?

I’d rather have the latter. Sure, you’d possibly be getting a point every 8 games from said 4^th line winger instead of a point every 4 games. But, even that isn’t a fair comparison since Jurco has spent time this season playing with solid offensive forwards in offensive situations and Andersson has not had any such opportunities at all.

It's only a few shifts per game. 1:40/game of PK time if you spread it out over the full 68 games. And that doesn't necessarily have to come out of Helm's ES time. Jurco's only getting about 10.5 at ES now, and he's already lost the PP time he had been getting. Hasn't even hit 8 minutes in his last 3 games.

With both Helm and Cole in the lineup, one of them has to get less time anyway (at least once Datsyuk is back). If it's Helm, he should have plenty of energy to pick up Andy's PK time. If Andy stays in, he probably takes Sheahan/Abby off the PK, but I don't think it would necessarily translate to extra ES time for them.

Having Jurco's speed, physical play, and offensive potential I think outweighs the defense from Andy. Plus I think Jurco still has the potential to be a real part of our future, whereas I don't see Andy ever being more than 12/13th forward. And I want to see Sheahan continue to develop his defense/PK skills. So there's some future dividends to be had as well.

[kickazz 5,459]

Pavel hasn't been "feeding" Tatar anything. Pav has assisted on 6 of Tatar's goals. The same number that Sheahan has assisted on. And just ahead of Nyquist and Dekeyser, who have each assisted on 5 of his goals.

Heheheh. I'm sorry I just couldn't wait till someone got upset about that comment. U win! I shall now attend the 2 pages of entertainment you have started. Your statistical argument is flawed however if you aren't looking at chances created by Datsyuk whether or not it ended in a goal or quality of competition on being on first line vs. when he was with Sheahan. We need all the details! Show em!

Now in reference to the first statement you made "Pavel hasn't been 'feeding' Tatar anything" You then stated Pav assisted on 6 of Tatar's goals. Didn't you just contradict the very first statement? I mean if he hasn't "fed" him ANYTHING like you said. Shouldnt the assists number be 0? I'm just working with your language here cause it seems kinda black and white.

Edited March 18, 2015 by kickazz

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Heheheh. I'm sorry I just couldn't wait till someone got upset about that comment. U win! I shall now attend the 2 pages of entertainment you have started. Your statistical argument is flawed however if you aren't looking at chances created by Datsyuk whether or not it ended in a goal or quality of competition on being on first line vs. when he was with Sheahan. We need all the details! Show em!

Now in reference to the first statement you made "Pavel hasn't been 'feeding' Tatar anything" You then stated Pav assisted on 6 of Tatar's goals. Didn't you just contradict the very first statement? I mean if he hasn't "fed" him ANYTHING like you said. Shouldnt the assists number be 0? I'm just working with your language here cause it seems kinda black and white.

So you were trolling?

You're interpretation of the word Anything is way too literal. Kip was saying that Datsyuk isn't responsible for Tatar's offence - He was doing quite well before being put on that line. Or maybe this is just further trolling. Damn! I bit.

[barabbas16 499]

It's only a few shifts per game. 1:40/game of PK time if you spread it out over the full 68 games. And that doesn't necessarily have to come out of Helm's ES time. Jurco's only getting about 10.5 at ES now, and he's already lost the PP time he had been getting. Hasn't even hit 8 minutes in his last 3 games.

With both Helm and Cole in the lineup, one of them has to get less time anyway (at least once Datsyuk is back). If it's Helm, he should have plenty of energy to pick up Andy's PK time. If Andy stays in, he probably takes Sheahan/Abby off the PK, but I don't think it would necessarily translate to extra ES time for them.

Having Jurco's speed, physical play, and offensive potential I think outweighs the defense from Andy. Plus I think Jurco still has the potential to be a real part of our future, whereas I don't see Andy ever being more than 12/13th forward. And I want to see Sheahan continue to develop his defense/PK skills. So there's some future dividends to be had as well.

Yeah, I agree with that. Unfortunately, he hasn't been even close to what anyone expected or hoped for. So far this season has been a complete bust for Jurco, I think. Perhaps I am judging him too hard based on that. Andersson has met my expectations so he doesn't seem as bad. Jurco has not even come close to my expectations (which I don't think were ridiculously high), so he seems worse... but that doesn't necessarily make him worse than Andersson... just more disappointing.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

Yeah, I agree with that. Unfortunately, he hasn't been even close to what anyone expected or hoped for. So far this season has been a complete bust for Jurco, I think. Perhaps I am judging him too hard based on that. Andersson has met my expectations so he doesn't seem as bad. Jurco has not even come close to my expectations (which I don't think were ridiculously high), so he seems worse... but that doesn't necessarily make him worse than Andersson... just more disappointing.

I'm hoping its just a sophomore slump with the jerk.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

I'm hoping its just a sophomore slump with the jerk.

He is the one guy for us who didn't do the overripe school of development. So his struggles support that way of doing things.

I like him a lot too. I just hope he doesn't fall through the cracks here. Next year, I see our top 9 wingers will be Tatar, Goose, Helm, Abby, Franzen, Pulkkinen. We, of course, still have Weiss and Miller. That puts him in the same situation as this year - 4th line or scratched for Weiss. Also, AA and Mantha will be realistic options next year as call-ups and further competition for playing time.

Then again Pulkkinen might start in GR for depth sake (and LGWers will go crazy). And, ideally, we could trade Weiss away so there might be some opportunity for the Jerk.

Edited March 18, 2015 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[kipwinger 8,492]

Jurco will be fine. Look how long it took Abby to become a consistent power forward. Jurco is starting much the same way, except he has an even higher ceiling. He just need s to continue to do the small stuff correctly and sooner or later he will get a chance and run with it.

[Buppy 1,720]

Pulkkinen is out of waiver exemptions after this year, so the chances of him starting in GR is whatever the chance is of all 30 NHL GMs going insane by next October.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

Jurco will be fine. Look how long it took Abby to become a consistent power forward. Jurco is starting much the same way, except he has an even higher ceiling. He just need s to continue to do the small stuff correctly and sooner or later he will get a chance and run with it.

Well said.

And lookin mighty good while doing it,+1.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Kip, I admitted putting Abby on the 4th line wouldn't have been the smartest move. In hindsight it would have been awful because chances are we wouldn't have got the same production from whoever would have replaced him. But why the hell would you break up the best duo we've had on our team in the past couple weeks? Makes no sense. No two players on the Red Wings have been connecting together as much as those two in that span...

Anyway, enough about that.

We are extremely deep up front. If there's such thing as too many options, we've got it. We can ice a great lineup with everyone healthy no matter who's slotted where and still have some great talent not in the lineup.

Our defense is the bigger issue right now...

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Pulkkinen is out of waiver exemptions after this year, so the chances of him starting in GR is whatever the chance is of all 30 NHL GMs going insane by next October.

Yep, my mistake. Then Jurco is on the 4th line for sure again next year unless he impresses big time in taining camp. Anyway, that's thinking too far ahead.

This year, I want him on the 4th line over Andersson when we're healthy.

[kickazz 5,459]

You're interpretation of the word Anything is way too literal.

Was just doing what people tend to do on these forums. Take words out of context and meaning and try to argue for the sake of arguing. Anyways, it was interesting to see different perspectives. You won't see me barking on about the comments made at the moment; right now the opinions are interesting to take in and analyze, not necessarily to fight against.

Edited March 19, 2015 by kickazz

[number9 3,297]

Was just doing what people tend to do on these forums. Take words out of context and meaning and try to argue for the sake of arguing. Anyways, it was interesting to see different perspectives. You won't see me barking on about the comments made at the moment; right now the opinions are interesting to take in and analyze, not necessarily to fight against.

Oh, so we're all just A-holes trying to argue about nothing huh?

"Barking on about the comments"??? Barking? What is this? Some slight against dog people? Please show me one shred of evidence about how cats are superior to dogs? Oh wait, you can't. There isn't any.

Your move cat boy.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Zetterberg-Sheahan-Glendening-Andersson is what you call no center depth. Mike's hatred for Weiss is infuriating. He hasn't been great lately, but he can actually pass and skate unlike Andersson. Glendening will be a fish out of water with Nyquist and Pulks. Man, just play guys where they're supposed to play!!

Cole-Zetterberg-Abdelkader

Tatar-Sheahan-Helm

Nyquist-Weiss-Pulkkinen

Miller-Glendening-Jurco

These lines can get the job done without Pav, #18 has no business being in the lineup whatsoever.

[joesuffP 1,746]

Weiss can't skate

[kickazz 5,459]

Oh, so we're all just A-holes trying to argue about nothing huh?

"Barking on about the comments"??? Barking? What is this? Some slight against dog people? Please show me one shred of evidence about how cats are superior to dogs? Oh wait, you can't. There isn't any.

Your move cat boy.

Dam did my post really catch that much of your attention? I feel honored. But hey I actually prefer female dogs thankyou very much. You might know a thing or two about that.

[number9 3,297]

Weiss can't skate

Not true. I've seen him skate before.

Would you like me to provide links?