kipwinger 8,458 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) So... Helm for Semin? Semin - Dats - Abby Nyq - Zetterberg - Franzen Jurco - Sheahan - Tatar Miller - Glendeninininininining - Andersson EDIT: I hate his contract. Yeah, they'd have to eat some of it. But they seem to be willing to do so based on the rumor mill. You could get him down around 4.5 to 5 mil. But I honestly think you could get him for less, and use Helm as a chip for a top four d-man. The situation in Carolina is bad, and they (like everybody else at the bottom of the standings) don't want to improve until AFTER the draft (McDavide, Eichel, blah blah), so a high pick and a good prospect with a minor league option should do it. Edited November 5, 2014 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DeGraa55 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 Good call on Yandle shooting left. Either way, I dont' think it matters as much as many do, so long as your lefties are first rate (Yandle is). Also, come on? Smith's played pretty well this season, but there's absolutely nothing to indicate that "he'll be better" than a two time all star, and one of the leading point producing defensemen in the national hockey league for the last 9 seasons. I think you're sleeping on Yandle and inflating Smith's potential just a little bit here. The righty lefty thing is actually a major deal. Notice how few times in the offensive zone our d man actually shoot one timers for example. I think any of smith kronwall or dekeyser would be better by just playing with a righty. Yeah, they'd have to eat some of it. But they seem to be willing to do so based on the rumor mill. You could get him down around 4.5 to 5 mil. But I honestly think you could get him for less, and use Helm as a chip for a top four d-man. The situation in Carolina is bad, and they (like everybody else at the bottom of the standings) don't want to improve until AFTER the draft (McDavide, Eichel, blah blah), so a high pick and a good prospect with a minor league option should do it. 4.5 to 5m with only three years left could very well be worth it risk. But to me it's a matter what they wanted maybe a bad contract or player like Kindl could be thrown in. Yeah, they'd have to eat some of it. But they seem to be willing to do so based on the rumor mill. You could get him down around 4.5 to 5 mil. But I honestly think you could get him for less, and use Helm as a chip for a top four d-man. The situation in Carolina is bad, and they (like everybody else at the bottom of the standings) don't want to improve until AFTER the draft (McDavide, Eichel, blah blah), so a high pick and a good prospect with a minor league option should do it. 4.5 to 5m with only three years left could very well be worth it risk. But to me it's a matter what they wanted maybe a bad contract or player like Kindl could be thrown in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,458 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) The righty lefty thing is actually a major deal. Notice how few times in the offensive zone our d man actually shoot one timers for example. I think any of smith kronwall or dekeyser would be better by just playing with a righty. 4.5 to 5m with only three years left could very well be worth it risk. But to me it's a matter what they wanted maybe a bad contract or player like Kindl could be thrown in. 4.5 to 5m with only three years left could very well be worth it risk. But to me it's a matter what they wanted maybe a bad contract or player like Kindl could be thrown in. Kronwall and Kindl seem to get them off just fine. I think the reason Smith, Ericsson, Quincey, and Dekeyser don't shoot much is because their one timers aren't that good. Same reason Dats doesn't one time the puck much. It's not a strength. I agree that all things being equal, get a righty. My point is that, with Yandle, all things aren't equal. He's miles ahead of almost every other puck moving d-man in the league, and certainly better than everyone on our team. If his only knock is the righty thing, I'll gladly take it knowing that I'm getting a dynamic skating, extremely durable, powerplay stud, in his prime. Edited November 5, 2014 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rick zombo 3,739 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 Kronwall and Kindl seem to get them off just fine. I think the reason Smith, Ericsson, Quincey, and Dekeyser don't shoot much is because their one timers aren't that good. Same reason Dats doesn't one time the puck much. It's not a strength. I agree that all things being equal, get a righty. My point is that, with Yandle, all things aren't equal. He's miles ahead of almost every other puck moving d-man in the league, and certainly better than everyone on our team. If his only knock is the righty thing, I'll gladly take it knowing that I'm getting a dynamic skating, extremely durable, powerplay stud, in his prime. Exactly. In two years: Kronwall - Ericsson Dekeyser - Yandle Ouellet - Sproul Jensen/Marchenko There are 3 righties in that group of 8. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
number9 3,297 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 Kip you need to be broken of this Semin obsession. 1 PavelValerievichDatsyuk reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,458 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) Kip you need to be broken of this Semin obsession. I've wanted a first rate shooter on Datsyuk's wing since Hossa left (that year he had almost 100 pts). That's the last time we had someone to bury the myriad chances that Datsyuk creates. When Gaborik was available I wanted Gaborik. I wanted Nash before that. Now that Semin's available I want Semin. There's no mistaking my obsession with this one guiding principle...we have one of the best playmakers of the last 20 years and nobody to finish for him. Dats and Z are both going to get 20+ goals this year, with the right line combos so will Nyquist and Franzen. Semin would too. And Tatar will end up close...but it's iffy. Think about that. It's not about Semin as a person. Sometimes I think fans get attached to players' personalities as if professional sports is a popularity contest. To me, Alexander Semin is nothing more than one of the best shooters in the NHL...and the only one available. That skill set would look awfully nice along side one of the best passers in the game. And what do you know, we happen to already have that guy. Edited November 5, 2014 by kipwinger 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 Kip, why would you quote "he'll be better" when I didn't say that at all?... I said I don't believe Yandle will be much of an upgrade in a few years from now. Meaning, I do believe Smith is definitely capable of playing a better all around game than Yandle, while putting up somewhere around 40 points a season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,458 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 Kip, why would you quote "he'll be better" when I didn't say that at all?... I said I don't believe Yandle will be much of an upgrade in a few years from now. Meaning, I do believe Smith is definitely capable of playing a better all around game than Yandle, while putting up somewhere around 40 points a season. What are you basing that on? That's the thing I don't get. Some guys, like Keith Yandle, come out of the gate putting up points and it's easy to imagine them getting better and better. But that's not Brendan Smith. He's struggled to contribute offense for the entirety of his pro career. And I don't think the "he's young" argument holds water. Dekeyser has played fewer pro games than Smith and he's at least as good offensively. I sometimes think that folks equate "flashiness" with potential. Smith is flashy. He's got dynamic skating. But without first rate decision making and a better shot I don't see him ever putting up 40 pts. consistently. For one, because most scoring d-men get their points in transition (where Smith struggles with turnovers) and off the point shot (and rebounds) where he also struggles. Think about how few d-men actually score 40 points and how they do it. They're not going end to end and dekeing and dazzling. They're manning the point and making good, crisp, smart passes. Smith hasn't shown the ability to to either in the NHL so far. I will say this for Smith though, so as not to be entirely one sided. I think that he (and Kindl too) would both be considerably better players if they weren't coached by Mike Babcock. His system, or perhaps his personality, stifles their offensive potential. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DeGraa55 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) What are you basing that on? That's the thing I don't get. Some guys, like Keith Yandle, come out of the gate putting up points and it's easy to imagine them getting better and better. But that's not Brendan Smith. He's struggled to contribute offense for the entirety of his pro career. And I don't think the "he's young" argument holds water. Dekeyser has played fewer pro games than Smith and he's at least as good offensively. I sometimes think that folks equate "flashiness" with potential. Smith is flashy. He's got dynamic skating. But without first rate decision making and a better shot I don't see him ever putting up 40 pts. consistently. For one, because most scoring d-men get their points in transition (where Smith struggles with turnovers) and off the point shot (and rebounds) where he also struggles. Think about how few d-men actually score 40 points and how they do it. They're not going end to end and dekeing and dazzling. They're manning the point and making good, crisp, smart passes. Smith hasn't shown the ability to to either in the NHL so far. I will say this for Smith though, so as not to be entirely one sided. I think that he (and Kindl too) would both be considerably better players if they weren't coached by Mike Babcock. His system, or perhaps his personality, stifles their offensive potential. So I guess all our defenseman struggle? Considering 5 on 5 with the least amount of time on ice smith had the most points last year. Get over your obvious bias hatred for him all ready. Edited November 5, 2014 by DeGraa55 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,458 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) So I guess all our defenseman struggle? Considering 5 on 5 with the least amount of time on ice smith had the most points last year. Get over your obvious bias hatred for him all ready. Most of our defensemen do struggle to produce consistent offense. Other than Kronwall. Wait, is that not obvious to you? Also, don't be childish. I don't "hate" Brendan Smith. I don't know the guy. But like I said above about Semin, to me professional athletes are nothing more that a collection of skill sets. Brendan is a great skater and he's a physically tough guy. Both of those will serve him well in the defensive part of the game. But he's a bad passer and doesn't have a great point shot, which isn't conducive to NHL scoring. Also, "5 on 5 with the least amount of ice time"? Did you just invent the "Even Strength Points Per Minute" stat? That's absurd. Edited November 5, 2014 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
number9 3,297 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 I've wanted a first rate shooter on Datsyuk's wing since Hossa left (that year he had almost 100 pts). That's the last time we had someone to bury the myriad chances that Datsyuk creates. When Gaborik was available I wanted Gaborik. I wanted Nash before that. Now that Semin's available I want Semin. There's no mistaking my obsession with this one guiding principle...we have one of the best playmakers of the last 20 years and nobody to finish for him. Dats and Z are both going to get 20+ goals this year, with the right line combos so will Nyquist and Franzen. Semin would too. And Tatar will end up close...but it's iffy. Think about that. It's not about Semin as a person. Sometimes I think fans get attached to players' personalities as if professional sports is a popularity contest. To me, Alexander Semin is nothing more than one of the best shooters in the NHL...and the only one available. That skill set would look awfully nice along side one of the best passers in the game. And what do you know, we happen to already have that guy. Semin sucks. The rest I'd be fine with 1 kipwinger reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,458 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) So I guess all our defenseman struggle? Considering 5 on 5 with the least amount of time on ice smith had the most points last year. Get over your obvious bias hatred for him all ready. AHAHAHA, since I was bored I actually did the math and determined which of our defensemen had the most even strength points per minute of even strength play. The answer? Danny Dekeyser. So even using your made up stat you're completely wrong. Should we try 5 on 5 per nanosecond of ice time next? Edited November 5, 2014 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 Smith has yet to be put in a position to succeed. He is not used to his strengths whatsoever, so yes I agree, his lack of production is due to the coaching. I don't base projections of players on anything I read, any past successes, or point totals. I base it purely on the product I see on the ice and I see a ton of potential in Smith. Whether or not he reaches that potential is another thing, I just hope Holland and co. see the same thing I'm seeing... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,458 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 Semin sucks. The rest I'd be fine with A year ago Marian Gaborik had 6 goals (14 pts.) in 22 games for Columbus. He had 1 assist in 5 games for Los Angeles. He has never played a second of defense in any of his 14 year career. He had 14 goals and 22 pts. when paired with Anze Kopitar in the playoffs and was in consideration for the Conn Smythe award. Semin sucks right now. Gaborik did too. Neither are bad players. They just need to be in the right place to bring out the best in their game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
number9 3,297 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 A year ago Marian Gaborik had 6 goals (14 pts.) in 22 games for Columbus. He had 1 assist in 5 games for Los Angeles. He has never played a second of defense in any of his 14 year career. He had 14 goals and 22 pts. when paired with Anze Kopitar in the playoffs and was in consideration for the Conn Smythe award. Semin sucks right now. Gaborik did too. Neither are bad players. They just need to be in the right place to bring out the best in their game. If Datsyuk don't like him, I don't like him 1 kipwinger reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,458 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 Smith has yet to be put in a position to succeed. He is not used to his strengths whatsoever, so yes I agree, his lack of production is due to the coaching. I don't base projections of players on anything I read, any past successes, or point totals. I base it purely on the product I see on the ice and I see a ton of potential in Smith. Whether or not he reaches that potential is another thing, I just hope Holland and co. see the same thing I'm seeing... First of all, I don't base my opinion of Smith on past success either. If I did, I'd have to conclude that he's going to be great in the NHL since he tore up every lower level he's played in. I base it on his skill set, which I don't think is conducive to the pro game. Same EXACT reason I think Jamis Winston or Johnny Manziel won't be good pro quarterbacks despite earlier successes. Their skill sets aren't right for success in the pro game. I will agree, however, that he's got the potential to be a good (defensive) defenseman. I've never denied that. I just think saying "he's got potential" and suggesting that in a few years he's going to be a better d-man than Keith Yandle are two different things. One I agree with, the other I don't. But I think I understand where you're coming from a little more now. If Datsyuk don't like him, I don't like him I have yet to see that substantiated...anywhere. I do know that last year when the Wings visited Carolina, Datsyuk and Semin went out for dinner together. Ken Daniels said so during the broadcast. So he can't hate the guy. I get you though. And again, it's a moot point because even if we did acquire him Babs would weld him to the bench. I just salivate thinking about that shot on Dats' wing. Find me another guy with that kind of skill and scoring history who's available and I'll gladly jump on that bandwagon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 Again, I never once said that Smith will be "better" than Yandle. I'm not sure where you're getting that... I just don't want to give up on a kid that I really like and have followed since he was drafted PLUS other assets for a guy that in a few years won't be much of an upgrade. Losing Smith plus other assets and adding Yandle does not put us over the top this year and certainly won't in future years, in my opinion... I think we agree on Smith's potential but I'm a little more certain he will reach that potential... I think we agree on where Helm should be in the lineup but not on the position he should play... We definitely agree on Semin. Exactly what this team needs. We do not need 12 two-way forwards, we need a couple guys that can concentrate fully on offense. Semin is that guy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 A year ago Marian Gaborik had 6 goals (14 pts.) in 22 games for Columbus. He had 1 assist in 5 games for Los Angeles. He has never played a second of defense in any of his 14 year career. He had 14 goals and 22 pts. when paired with Anze Kopitar in the playoffs and was in consideration for the Conn Smythe award. Semin sucks right now. Gaborik did too. Neither are bad players. They just need to be in the right place to bring out the best in their game. I'm not sure playing under Mike "every-dayer" Babcock is the right place to bring out the best in Semin's game, where he's more likely to get benched than where he currently is (in Carolina, on the bench until last night). I'll give you he's a pheneomenal goal scorer with one of the best shots in the league, which is precicesly what the Wings could use to round out their top six. But he takes days off. He doesn't play a complete game. And this has been something consistent with him throughout his career. Before he signed in Carolina that was the big knock on him. He did well to regain his reputation for the first part of his contract in Carolina, but late last year he fell apart again, and from that point throughout the entirety of this season so far Semin has been more of a liability than an offensive threat. Perhaps Babcock can clean up his game and get him working for 200 feet and bringing it every night, and if that happens he would be an awesome acquisition. But if he continues to be Alex Semin as we curently know him, I think he'll be riding pine with Cleary for many nights, or playing on the third/fourth line, because I don't think Babcock will tolerate it as much as other coaches may have in the past. Just a side note: the more I think on it, the more I realize how difficult it is to actually be an offensive powerhouse in Babcock's system. Everyone plays defense first. Everyone plays 200 feet. Nobody takes risks to try to earn an odd-man rush or force a turnover if it means being out of position with noone to back you up. They win as a team. They lose as a team. That's why I think it was so devastating to have lost out on Hossa, because he was one of the few players in the league who could do what Semin does, but also fit perfectly into a defense-oriented coaching philosophy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,458 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure playing under Mike "every-dayer" Babcock is the right place to bring out the best in Semin's game, where he's more likely to get benched than where he currently is (in Carolina, on the bench until last night). I'll give you he's a pheneomenal goal scorer with one of the best shots in the league, which is precicesly what the Wings could use to round out their top six. But he takes days off. He doesn't play a complete game. And this has been something consistent with him throughout his career. Before he signed in Carolina that was the big knock on him. He did well to regain his reputation for the first part of his contract in Carolina, but late last year he fell apart again, and from that point throughout the entirety of this season so far Semin has been more of a liability than an offensive threat. Perhaps Babcock can clean up his game and get him working for 200 feet and bringing it every night, and if that happens he would be an awesome acquisition. But if he continues to be Alex Semin as we curently know him, I think he'll be riding pine with Cleary for many nights, or playing on the third/fourth line, because I don't think Babcock will tolerate it as much as other coaches may have in the past. Just a side note: the more I think on it, the more I realize how difficult it is to actually be an offensive powerhouse in Babcock's system. Everyone plays defense first. Everyone plays 200 feet. Nobody takes risks to try to earn an odd-man rush or force a turnover if it means being out of position with noone to back you up. They win as a team. They lose as a team. That's why I think it was so devastating to have lost out on Hossa, because he was one of the few players in the league who could do what Semin does, but also fit perfectly into a defense-oriented coaching philosophy. I agree. And I've said so a couple of times already. Babs would hate his guts. But there's always a little bug in my brain when I think about this. Remember when we had Brunner, and he didn't play s*** for defense, and he was largely invisible in every other way except that in the first part of the season he was scoring goals? There was a quote from Babs (that I'm trying to track down now) where he says something to the effect of "It's hard to take a guy out of the lineup if he's scoring". Also, and I said so in the GDT as well...If I've heard once, I've heard a thousand times about how Mike Babcock is the best at getting the most out of players. "Every second, of every shift, of every game" seems to be the consensus when it comes to how well Babs' maximizes talent. All last year we heard about how he dragged a bunch of kids into the playoffs through his ability to get the most out of guys. Ok, prove it. Give him this guy. Huge talent, inconsistent. Let's see how true it is. Everybody can coach Pavel Datsyuk. It would take a great coach to get the absolute most out of Semin. Edited November 5, 2014 by kipwinger 4 krsmith17, e_prime, derblaueClaus and 1 other reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Euro_Twins 4,469 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 If Datsyuk don't like him, I don't like him Actually we have no idea how datsyuk feels about semin. We know he didn't want an undisclosed Russian winger on the team, but I would put money down that winger was radulov Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,458 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 Actually we have no idea how datsyuk feels about semin. We know he didn't want an undisclosed Russian winger on the team, but I would put money down that winger was radulov And how do we even know that? I just recall this being a rumor. I don't recall this being an actual statement by him. I have a hard time believing the actual hockey "press". Let alone the rumor mill. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,458 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) Again, I never once said that Smith will be "better" than Yandle. I'm not sure where you're getting that... I just don't want to give up on a kid that I really like and have followed since he was drafted PLUS other assets for a guy that in a few years won't be much of an upgrade. Losing Smith plus other assets and adding Yandle does not put us over the top this year and certainly won't in future years, in my opinion... I think we agree on Smith's potential but I'm a little more certain he will reach that potential... I think we agree on where Helm should be in the lineup but not on the position he should play... We definitely agree on Semin. Exactly what this team needs. We do not need 12 two-way forwards, we need a couple guys that can concentrate fully on offense. Semin is that guy. This is where you're losing me. Keith Yandle is an upgrade over almost every defenseman in the league. Let alone the Red Wings. You keep saying things like this and I'm lost. Yandle plays 82 games a season, every season. He's averaging 26 minutes of ice time per night, and is scoring almost a point per game. Also, he's in his prime and has earned the trust of a defense first coach in a defense first system. He's one of the best defensemen in the entire league. Why do you keep saying he won't be "much of an upgrade" over Brendan Smith? I know that you like Smith and all, but to say that a guy this good (Yandle) won't be much of an upgrade seems to suggest that Brendan Smith will himself be an all star defenseman. Something he has shown absolutely no indication that he's capable of thus far in his career. When Yandle was the same age as Smith is now he put of 53 points and made the All Star team. It's not an age thing. Edited November 5, 2014 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
T.Low 1,011 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 I'd hope Holland would put in a call to Sergei for a reference on Semin...he played with him, and is now a GM himself...be interesting to hear what his observations and recommendations would be. 1 kipwinger reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 What we would have to give up (Smith PLUS assets) would be a huge mistake in my opinion. Again, this is all just my opinion. You don't need to agree with me, or see it from my perspective, but I see a ton of potential in him. You see Yandle as one of the top defensemen in the league. I don't see that at all. Sure he puts up a lot of points but he isn't great defensively by any stretch. I don't put much stock into +/- but he was a team worst and one of the league worst -23 last season. If we're going after a purely offensive guy, I would much rather a right handed shooting defenseman. I'd rather take a gamble on Green than Yandle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,458 Report post Posted November 5, 2014 What we would have to give up (Smith PLUS assets) would be a huge mistake in my opinion. Again, this is all just my opinion. You don't need to agree with me, or see it from my perspective, but I see a ton of potential in him. You see Yandle as one of the top defensemen in the league. I don't see that at all. Sure he puts up a lot of points but he isn't great defensively by any stretch. I don't put much stock into +/- but he was a team worst and one of the league worst -23 last season. If we're going after a purely offensive guy, I would much rather a right handed shooting defenseman. I'd rather take a gamble on Green than Yandle. Green costs more and isn't under contract. Plus he's plays fewer minutes, is injured constantly, and isn't any better defensively. We're miles apart on this d man thing lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites