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If anything we should be looking to package a couple forwards for a defenseman, not a defenseman for a forward (especially one that will be 36 going into next season). Our forward depth is unbelievable, and our defensive depth is lacking.

Our defensive depth is great. The quality at the top is what's lacking. That'll be a problem at forward soon enough as well. We should be looking at trading quantity for quality in both areas, though that is far easier said than done.

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I haven't been able to watch a whole lot of games lately, but from what I've seen I'm surprised people are vouching for Weiss. Now maybe I only caught his bad games, so my assessment may be way off here, but in the games I catch he has been one of the lightest guys on the puck I have ever seen in an NHL game. He's a feather in the corners, generates nothing, breakdowns in possession usually happen on his side of the ice, and he hasn't been particularly noticeable defensively either. Looking at his stats over the past few months, the guy doesn't have much to speak of. One assist on Feb 26th (on the powerplay), his last point before that was Feb 11th (a goal, on the powerplay). He had a solid stretch over 4 games in late January where he had three points against his former team, at even strength, and an even strength assist against Minny, and a powerplay assist against Nashville on Jan 17th. His next point before then was another assist on the powerplay Dec 29th, and a goal on the powerplay Dec 23rd. That's 9 points in the past 3 months, of which 5 came on the powerplay. That really confirms (at least offensively) what you can see just by watching the guy play: he hasn't been an effective player in tight-checking, fast-paced, little-time-and-space hockey, aka a typical even strength NHL game. This issue is likely compounded by the fact that Babcock has been grooming the Wings to be a fast, up-tempo, heavy fore-check team who's bread and butter are forced turnovers. Weiss may have more raw skill than Anderson, or Miller, or Glendening, or whoever, but looking forward to the playoffs, when the speed gets even faster, and the play gets even tighter, I'm more comfortable giving ice to the guys who have shown at the very least they're capable of enduring the pressure in the regular season. If Weiss is able to step his game up and get to that level, then more power to us. We could certainly use a guy with his skill-set. But until that point comes, I think the team is better off with Pulkinnen and Andersson on the ice.

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Yeah, Buppy that was a poor choice of wording. Our depth at defense is fine, we're lacking quality on the back end, definitely not quantity. Although I do disagree with us having the same problem at forward soon... I think we are loaded with both quality and quantity up front for years to come. Defense is by far our biggest weakness, and what needs work in my opinion.

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I was looking at top defenses (in terms of scoring) yesterday, and one of the things I noticed is that their top guys don't noticeably outpace our top guys. Here's the point production of the top three defensive scorers for a random assortment of quality teams.

Nash: 51, 45, 35: Total 131

Wash: 47, 39, 24: Total 110

Mtl: 52, 34, 14: Total 108

TB: 37, 36, 30: Total 103

Ana: 36, 33, 31: Total 100

Det: 40, 31, 25: Total 96

NYR: 45, 26, 25: Total 96

Stl: 41, 40, 14: Total 95

NYI: 32, 29, 29: Total 90

Pit: 54, 17, 17: Total 88

Chi: 41, 31, 15: Total 87

So, a couple of things.

1. Obviously we didn't have Zidlicky's points until recently. And without him we've got about 15 points fewer.

2. This doesn't say anything about how any of these guys or teams are getting their points (i.e. powerplay vs. even strength).

3. Obviously we're not looking at the defensive strength of these same players, but our top three of Kronwall, Zidlicky, Dekeyser aren't slouches on defense either.

Do you guys think it's how we're using them or what? Because production wise we seem to be at least a reasonably skilled team from the back end.

Edited by kipwinger

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I was looking at top defenses (in terms of scoring) yesterday, and one of the things I noticed is that their top guys don't noticeably outpace our top guys. Here's the point production of the top three defensive scorers for a random assortment of quality teams.

Nash: 51, 45, 35: Total 131

Wash: 47, 39, 24: Total 110

Mtl: 52, 34, 14: Total 108

TB: 37, 36, 30: Total 103

Ana: 36, 33, 31: Total 100

Det: 40, 31, 25: Total 96

NYR: 45, 26, 25: Total 96

Stl: 41, 40, 14: Total 95

NYI: 32, 29, 29: Total 90

Pit: 54, 17, 17: Total 88

Chi: 41, 31, 15: Total 87

So, a couple of things.

1. Obviously we didn't have Zidlicky's points until recently. And without him we've got about 15 points fewer.

2. This doesn't say anything about how any of these guys or teams are getting their points (i.e. powerplay vs. even strength).

3. Obviously we're not looking at the defensive strength of these same players, but our top three of Kronwall, Zidlicky, Dekeyser aren't slouches on defense either.

Do you guys think it's how we're using them or what? Because production wise we seem to be at least a reasonably skilled team from the back end.

Since we've gotten Zidlicky, we have been productive from the backend.

I don't think anyone is arguing that...

When people mention poor top end depth I think they're talking past this season.

Zidlicky won't be here long. It's a short term fix for this season. Maybe one more.

It's still going to be a problem we're going to have to fix.

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Since we've gotten Zidlicky, we have been productive from the backend.

I don't think anyone is arguing that...

When people mention poor top end depth I think they're talking past this season.

Zidlicky won't be here long. It's a short term fix for this season. Maybe one more.

It's still going to be a problem we're going to have to fix.

I wasn't making any argument. I was just providing context for the current discussion.

Edit: To provide even more context, I looked up the production from the next three highest d-scorers for each of those teams, and Detroit slightly above average there as well.

So, my next question: Could it be "how" the defense is scoring that's the problem? By which I mean, are they "producing" offense by making things happen, or are they getting on the score sheet because the forwards are scoring pretty well?

Again, no answers here. Just questions.

Edited by kipwinger

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I wasn't making any argument. I was just providing context for the current discussion.

Edit: To provide even more context, I looked up the production from the next three highest d-scorers for each of those teams, and Detroit slightly above average there as well.

So, my next question: Could it be "how" the defense is scoring that's the problem? By which I mean, are they "producing" offense by making things happen, or are they getting on the score sheet because the forwards are scoring pretty well?

Again, no answers here. Just questions.

I don't think there's any problem at all with our offensive production if you include Zidlicky. We could use a true stud shutdown guy or another Kronwall-esque two-way guy at the top. Ericsson isn't good enough.

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