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NHL players will not participate in 2018 Olympics (Mod Post #99)


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#101 roboturner

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 07:17 PM

1 - not many actors making $20M for a TV season....but, whatever they are making....2 - yes, that doesn mean they can't go making a movie if it interferes with the filming of the TV show.

 

That's the whole point of contention here, the NHL does not like the idea of shutting down in the middle of their season.  It wouldn't be as big of a deal if the Olympics were in the off-season (some owners would still have a problem with it, but it certainly wouldn't be as big of an issue).

1A. The number doesn't matter, I was responding to the assertion that if you make greater than X amount of dollars, then the person who willingly gave it to you in exchange for you're service somehow has the power to stop you from doing what you professionally do.

 

2A. That wasn't my argument, I said if they weren't filming the TV show for say 2 months, you can't stop the Actor from taking a 6 week movie gig in the time off just because you don't like it.

 

3. That isn't the whole point of contention. A part of it, yes (maybe a big part of it), but not the whole point. And I understand the principle behind it, but I think any negative effects of "shutting down during the season" are just a figment of people's imaginations.

 

We're talking about moving from an average of 2.8 games per week for each team during non-interrupted seasons

to 3.03 games per week during Olympic years (Every 4 seasons) due to the two week break. Still the same 82 games being scheduled that they have every year.

 

We're talking about maybe 50 out of 600 NHL players for a whopping 8% of employees going to the Olympics (I just took these numbers out of a hat, if anybody has the real numbers I'll redo the calculations). Over 90% of NHL players are getting a two week vacation to rest/heal/recover/get healthy. And there are a few teams that are actually sending younger players to the minors to play some games over the break, so the organizations obviously aren't too worried about players getting injured playing for someone else.

 

As I've covered in other posts, the owners aren't actually losing any home games or mysteriously required to pay out an extra paycheck to every player. These are all non issues. Are there other issues that might be legitimate? Yeah, there are. But I think everything I've discussed in this thread should/could be resolved by using l little more brain power.


Edited by roboturner, 11 February 2014 - 07:31 PM.

This might be getting a little heated. Just know I don't hate any of you guys.

 

That doesn't mean that I respect ideas & opinions. Some ideas & opinions are ridiculous.

 

In fact, if you confront my ideas & opinions, that will lead to a discussion. (We're on a discussion board after all. Don't forget that!)

 

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#102 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 08:23 PM

From NHL:

 

Uncle Gary sez...

 

"I'm very much a believer in the World Cup. I think they're great," Commissioner Bettman said during his Q&A with TSN's Gord Miller. "Doing it at a time of year in places that we can control makes a whole lot more sense for us in terms of what we try to accomplish as the NHL. And we think it's good for international hockey as well."

 

This "epiphany" comes from his economic reality of all the money he could make, from areas such as merchandise sales and increased ticket prices, just to name a couple. Keep in mind that he is one of the greatest "control freaks", who also happens to be the head of a major sport, of all-time.


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#103 Buppy

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 10:11 PM

I get that the checks are written regardless, its a figure of speech. If I own a winter season snow removal company up in Prince Albert, Canada and give you your by-weekly pay check for the two weeks you are gone just for you to come back tired, unmotivated and potentially injured and you as a business owner think this is ok then something is wrong with you. I don't care if you make up the time you missed by working more around the two weeks.

 

What the hell does it being a free country have to do with anything? If I employ you for the whole "season" and pay you a ridiculous amount of money to entertain for my business then I can definitely control what you do. That is what has happened, the owners have got so fed up they got their way.

 

Get this, If I pay you 5 million dollars to work for 3/4 of a year you are my property.

 

I am all for the NHL participating in the Winter Olympics. It has been huge for advertising the NHL internationally and has been a blast to watch . I am telling you the main reasons why they have for now pulled out of the Olympics. Its fact

If I'm paying for a season, and getting a season, I really don't care about the exact disbursements. Like I said, there could possibly be an issue with trades (or injuries) and whether or not the percentage of payments made equals the percentage of service received, but that should be a rare case. If it were an issue, just make sure the paychecks are scheduled roughly in accordance to games played, and not have a pay period during the break.

 

I was kind of being a smartass with the "free country" thing, and didn't mean to spark a political debate. My point was just that it really isn't much of a risk. It's hockey, not a Russian Roulette tournament. The likelihood of injury is small. I don't think it's reasonable for the league to prohibit participation. By all means, make the players bear the liability if they do get injured, but don't say they can't play.

 

For the "property" thing, there are no words to describe how wrong that is. So I will invent one now... Negoggliotic.

 

I have a few thoughts. Players exchange certain abilities like choosing where they play and limiting their leisure activities in exchange for obscene amounts of money. All those limits are part of the CBA. They're all agreed to....

So far as I found, this is all the CBA has to say on the Olympics.
 
"24.5
The NHL and the NHLPA shall continue to work together to jointly create and exploit
other international projects and initiatives involving NHL Players other than International
Hockey Games, including games, series, events or contests (e.g., the World Cup of Hockey,
European Champions' League, Victoria Cup Competition, Olympic participation, etc.)."
 
Sure, if the players agree to not play, the whole thing is moot. But from all being said so far, it sure sounds like the league will be making the decision on its own.


#104 toby91_ca

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 10:14 PM

1A. The number doesn't matter, I was responding to the assertion that if you make greater than X amount of dollars, then the person who willingly gave it to you in exchange for you're service somehow has the power to stop you from doing what you professionally do.

 

2A. That wasn't my argument, I said if they weren't filming the TV show for say 2 months, you can't stop the Actor from taking a 6 week movie gig in the time off just because you don't like it.

 

3. That isn't the whole point of contention. A part of it, yes (maybe a big part of it), but not the whole point. And I understand the principle behind it, but I think any negative effects of "shutting down during the season" are just a figment of people's imaginations.

 

We're talking about moving from an average of 2.8 games per week for each team during non-interrupted seasons

to 3.03 games per week during Olympic years (Every 4 seasons) due to the two week break. Still the same 82 games being scheduled that they have every year.

 

We're talking about maybe 50 out of 600 NHL players for a whopping 8% of employees going to the Olympics (I just took these numbers out of a hat, if anybody has the real numbers I'll redo the calculations). Over 90% of NHL players are getting a two week vacation to rest/heal/recover/get healthy. And there are a few teams that are actually sending younger players to the minors to play some games over the break, so the organizations obviously aren't too worried about players getting injured playing for someone else.

 

As I've covered in other posts, the owners aren't actually losing any home games or mysteriously required to pay out an extra paycheck to every player. These are all non issues. Are there other issues that might be legitimate? Yeah, there are. But I think everything I've discussed in this thread should/could be resolved by using l little more brain power.

I think you are underestimating how much the owners dislike shutting down their league for 2-3 weeks in the middle of the season.  The number of players going to play is meaningless.  There are valid concerns regarding potential injuries and lack of "benefit" to the NHL, but I'm led to believe the biggest issue the owners have is shutting their league down, losing momentum, etc.  It isn't as big of a deal when the Olympics were in Vancouver because it was still in NA, games in prime time, etc.  When you start getting 9, 10, 11 hour time differences, it starts getting lost on the general population you are trying to sell the game to. 

 

World Cup / Canada Cup makes way more sense for the league in my opinion.



#105 LeftWinger

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 10:52 PM

Canada Cup....Super Series...didnt I say that pages ago? Makes much more sense.


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#106 evilmrt

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 10:53 PM


World Cup / Canada Cup makes way more sense for the league in my opinion.

 

Only with NBC on-board. I remember the last tournament....it wasn't even on TV in the US, afaik. I recall being pretty angry about it.

 

Also, having the games in multiple cities like before, makes no sense. It has to at least be a host city/region.

 

And the timing has to be right as well. These pre-season tournaments are pretty lame, and aren't taken very seriously.

 

The more I think about it, the less optimistic about the World Cup I am.



#107 FireCaptain

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 10:59 PM

Well, because they kinda have to.. what with the Family Medical Leave Act and all (*does not apply to Canadians).

 

1) Why should a company hold a job indefinitely for someone who hurt themselves outside of work?  if I'm not there doing my job, other people have to do extra work to make up for it or the company has to hire and train a temp to do it.  If it's only going to be a couple weeks that's one thing.  If I'm not going to be able to come back for 3 months, why should they hold the job that long when I got hurt playing hockey or whatever?

 


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#108 DickieDunn

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 11:09 PM

Well, because they kinda have to.. what with the Family Medical Leave Act and all (*does not apply to Canadians).

12 weeks of leave, then they can fire you.  If it's a work related injury, it's 6 months, and I know that from personal experience.


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#109 roboturner

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 11:39 PM

Oh I think I estimated the owners about right. I think everybody else is overestimating the owners concerns about shutting down the league.

 

Just think about this for a second, these are the same guys who wiped out an entire season and almost another (maybe about 52 weeks worth of games). Do you honestly think these guys are worried about 2-3 weeks every 4 years?? That's child's play to these guys. And I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the owners who have a problem with the Olympics are the same ones who supported the lockouts. Talk about irony.


This might be getting a little heated. Just know I don't hate any of you guys.

 

That doesn't mean that I respect ideas & opinions. Some ideas & opinions are ridiculous.

 

In fact, if you confront my ideas & opinions, that will lead to a discussion. (We're on a discussion board after all. Don't forget that!)

 

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#110 ami

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 11:42 PM

.... after seeing the conditions in Sochi I'm not surprised 

Oh, you've been to Sochi!! Tell us more, please! because what WE have to chance to see is what NBC decided we deserve to see.



#111 Nev

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 01:51 AM

Oh I think I estimated the owners about right. I think everybody else is overestimating the owners concerns about shutting down the league.

 

Just think about this for a second, these are the same guys who wiped out an entire season and almost another (maybe about 52 weeks worth of games). Do you honestly think these guys are worried about 2-3 weeks every 4 years?? That's child's play to these guys. And I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the owners who have a problem with the Olympics are the same ones who supported the lockouts. Talk about irony.

 

Exactly.  The owner weren't concerned about "losing momentum" and "not having any income from games" when they locked the players out for half a season last year, and the full season before that.

 

And they're not concerned about injuries to their prize assets, as they can just as easily get injured in a summer world cup.

 

Its all about money, nothing more, nothing less.


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#112 frankgrimes

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:08 AM

 

Exactly.  The owner weren't concerned about "losing momentum" and "not having any income from games" when they locked the players out for half a season last year, and the full season before that.

 

And they're not concerned about injuries to their prize assets, as they can just as easily get injured in a summer world cup.

 

Its all about money, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Exactly, they are just hypocrites.

 

Also I don't know why a hockeyfan should care about the return of the world cup? It doesn't matter it's nothing special, I'm sure a lot of players wouldn't even want to participate it's just a slightly bigger World Championship.

 

In the end this isn't about shutting down the league, concerns over injuries or anything like that it is one more time about the bottom of the line $.


Edited by frankgrimes, 12 February 2014 - 03:10 AM.

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#113 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:53 AM

An Uncle Gary Pondering: "If there was only a way to combine the World Cup and outdoor games. Mo' money, mo' money! DALY, get in here!"


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#114 Playmaker

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:57 AM

 

Exactly.  The owner weren't concerned about "losing momentum" and "not having any income from games" when they locked the players out for half a season last year, and the full season before that.

 

And they're not concerned about injuries to their prize assets, as they can just as easily get injured in a summer world cup.

 

Its all about money, nothing more, nothing less.

And why do you work?  For the pure joy of it?  I work for money.  Not ashamed of that at all.  That's why I work.  To make money and lots of it.  I have zero problem whatsoever with Business owners making sound business decisions.  If participating in the Olympics made financial sense to them, they would do it. The billionaire owners are billionaire owners because they make sound business decisions.  Not because they pander to public opinion.  

 

The bottom line is, the Olympics, especially when held abroad have very little appeal to non NHL fans.  Is anyone tuning in to Switzerland and Latvia?  A few non NHL fans may tune into the gold medal game if it's the US vs. Canada, but otherwise, there's no evidence that the Olympics have been any kind of ratings or growth boom for the NHL.    What about players like Helm who have finally gotten back into game shape and now have to do nothing for 3 weeks?  What about pushing back the playoffs 3 weeks and going directly against the NBA?  

 

If the league says they're not participating, the players aren't going.  All this talk of slavery and human rights is absolutely ridiculous.  


 

Exactly, they are just hypocrites.

 

Also I don't know why a hockeyfan should care about the return of the world cup? It doesn't matter it's nothing special, I'm sure a lot of players wouldn't even want to participate it's just a slightly bigger World Championship.

 

In the end this isn't about shutting down the league, concerns over injuries or anything like that it is one more time about the bottom of the line $.

You clearly don't remember the last World Cup.  



#115 VM1138

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 08:51 AM

Do the Olympics actually grow the sport? Is there actual market research to back this up? I've never met a single person who wasn't a fan who watched Olympic hockey and then watched the NHL.

When you watch curling you watch it for the novelty. People all over the world are nationalists deep down, and so we watch these obscure sports for national pride or for novelty effect.

Big sport events draw viewers. Remember the World Cup of Soccer in 2010? It was pretty big in the US, but three years later soccer isn't any more popular.

I'm just not sure the evidence supports the Olympics capacity to grow a sport. I know I never watch curling or snowboarding outside of the Olympics.
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#116 wingslionstigers

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:51 AM

Do the Olympics actually grow the sport? Is there actual market research to back this up? I've never met a single person who wasn't a fan who watched Olympic hockey and then watched the NHL.

When you watch curling you watch it for the novelty. People all over the world are nationalists deep down, and so we watch these obscure sports for national pride or for novelty effect.

Big sport events draw viewers. Remember the World Cup of Soccer in 2010? It was pretty big in the US, but three years later soccer isn't any more popular.

I'm just not sure the evidence supports the Olympics capacity to grow a sport. I know I never watch curling or snowboarding outside of the Olympics.

The first time I really paid any attention to soccer was during the Olympics. I from time to time watch it now. Maybe if I already wasn't packed with sports following hockey, baseball, and football I would have ended up watching it regularly. I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume someone would watch the Olympics purely because of the hype and supporting their country and end up realizing the game is exciting and start watching the NHL. I know a couple people who watched the USA/Canada gold game that did not watch any NHL at all. That game gave them respect for hockey and I wouldn't say that they are now die hard NHL fans but they certainly watch some Wings game here and there. That adds up and helps the league.

It would be impossible to create any research or statistics on it. It would cost way to much money and the NHL wouldn't waist money on it. So just because there isn't research to back it up like someone said earlier, is not a legitimate argument to dismantle Olympic hockey's potential in growing the sport.

One thing is for sure. Nobody ever stopped being an NHL fan because they went to the Olympics. The Olympics has surely drew at least some people to the game. Who knows how many, but anything helps.

If a player gets injured from your NHL team are you seriously going to stop watching? If Datsyuk gets hurt I'm still going to watch as many games, still buy Red Wing stuff, still go see them play at the Joe. It's nice to see Datsyuk but there are other very good athletes on the ice worth watching. If Datsyuk gets hurt than so be it. I'm not going to cry for them to stop going because of it. I'm sure some people will though because they wine about everything possible. That's where some of us differentiate though. Not all of us grew up to become sensitive whiny individuals that cry everytime something doesn't go perfect. I can understand women using emotions to guide their thinking, but more and more guys now days are becoming feminine. Thank god for hormones in our food increasing estrogen and decreasing testosterone levels.... Hopefully I'm aloud to say two sentences out of 30 that's not directly hockey without being warned and banned on this forum. I guess we are not aloud to use logic and analyses that reaches outside of hockey to make a hockey point. Sounds a lot like the world today. You can do this this and that, but not that this and that. Amazing.


Edited by wingslionstigers, 12 February 2014 - 11:00 AM.


#117 toby91_ca

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 11:04 AM

My guess is that it is posturing at this point.  No decisions have been made (that much I know 100% as fact).  What I don't know is truly where the NHL is leaning.  I think they'll hold off making a decision as long as possible to negotiate terms with the IOC, IIHF, etc.  For 2014, they were able to get them to cover insurance costs (big win), they'll look to see what else they can secure.  If the deal isn't good enough, they won't send players, if it is, maybe they will.



#118 evilmrt

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 11:54 AM


I don't think they're doing that in such a simplistic fashion. The issue, to me, is sacrificing the quality and integrity of the game and the league to fill coffers ASAP, a very short term strategy. I'd prefer that he take a longer view, especially so that we don't have lockouts every few years. It's more stable, and it's more profitable in the long run.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 12 February 2014 - 01:31 PM.
to remove quoted post that was deleted.


#119 amato

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 11:59 AM

has it been discussed that nothing is official yet?

 

there's still a chance they play in 2018.. the players need to speak up if it's a big deal to them and I think they will after these games are over.


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#120 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 01:01 PM

This goes way above and beyond trying to make more money for the League and, in the end, justifying the exorbitant salary paid to be the head. This boils down to a battle of wills: NHL v. IIHF. If there is any way that Uncle Gary can fulfill his dream, without having to go through Rene Fasel, he will try to.


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