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10 ton elephant in the room.


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#41 FlashyG

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 08:54 PM

That's the stupidest argument ever as I'm sure you're one of the people who say ovi is a floater to? But yet he has 40 goals so far.


Franzen floating and not playing defense is kind of the same idea?

Franzen won't last until he is 40 and I doubt z does as well. Now dats? Ya he can IMO.

Saying Weiss is a top free agent to me is laughable as I've been down on the signing since day one. And I don't care for Alfie signing either...nyquist is pretty much our leading goal scorer with quite a few less games. Imagine if he was in team to start the year like I said he should but couldn't because of Hollands STUPID signings.

 

"Floater" is one of the stupidest fan created terms ever. Generally the guys who get the label are great goal scorers that tend to look for open ice to shoot from, while their line-mates fight to get the puck to them. 

 

Look at the list of players who've all been given that stupid label.

 

Patrick Kane, Ilya Kovalchuk, Brett Hull, Alexander Ovechkin, Alexei Kovalev, Tomas Vanek, Dany Heatley, Alexander Semin, Phil Kessel, Anze Kopitar, Paul Kariya etc,,,

 

Basically anyone who scores goals and doesn't get nominated for a Selke is considered one.

 

What really irks me about Franzen getting that label is that he's only been given the label after signing his current deal (which is a deal for the team BTW) yet his defence has actually improved since the signing. He actually gets used as a penalty killer when one of our regular guys is injured or in the box themselves so clearly Babcock doesn't think his defence is near as bad as you seem to.

 

I agree that Nyquist should have been in the line-up since day 1 of the season, in fact I think Holland and Babcock both know that as well, but Nyquist wasn't in the minors because we signed Alfredsson and Weiss. If Holland deserves criticism for an off-season move that kept Nyquist out of the line-up (he does) its for bringing back Cleary and/or not buying out Tootoo for a roster spot. Signing Alfredsson was a great signing, and while Weiss wasn't my first or 2nd choice, we needed a center because Flip had no interest in coming back.

 

You have no objectivity at all when it comes to players you don't like.

 

Just for comparison sake here is Franzen, Nyquist and Alfredsson's ppg rates this season.

 

Nyquist .72 ppg

Alfredsson .76 ppg

Franzen .74 ppg

 

We agree that our young talent needs to filter into the line-up to make this team a legit contender again, but they need to filter in WITH guys like Alfredsson, Franzen, Datsyuk, Zetterberg etc. The guys up front that should be cut loose are guys like Bert, Cleary, Sammy, Miller, Eaves, Emmerton, and Tootoo. Replacing them with our prospects has potential to make us much better, but replacing our best players with prospects will at best be a wash and will more likely make us worse.



#42 DickieDunn

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 08:55 PM

Btw I hate the mobile version of this site I can't quote people?? Maybe it's just me.


Anyway dyes I hate the Alfie signing. Yes I agree with your points you made and it makes sense. If we were close to winning a cup? He'll yes it'd be a great signing! But we are not. It's a FACT this team is still a year or two away. Or more. I know you people in lala LAN like to think differently but it's a fact. This team needs some changes one of which is founding out which young guys can play and contribute. They can't when we have the old and useless taking up play time.

 

Alfredsson is far from useless.  Anytime you can add a player who will help your team, even if it's only going to be for a year or two, you do it.  His signing, and the Weiss contract, aren't the problem.  Weiss's season long groin issues make Weiss a problem, but that's not something you know will happen, and any player might get hurt.

 

The real problem was that Holland made a bad assumption that he'd be able to trade someone when he signed Cleary.  That led to no roster space or cap room for Nyquist.  I said at the time that I didn't mind CLeary coming back, but the deal shouldn't have been finalized until someone was traded.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#43 Echolalia

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 09:34 PM

It's trendy to hate on Franzen. All the cool kids are doing it.

#44 Red Crazy

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:28 AM

I don't hate Franzen but with this last head injury the Wings have to take a look at buying him out when/if he gets healthy. I get that this is an ok contract but if he is sitting in the press box what good is it? Injuries have killed the Red Wings this year and will make it very difficult to make the playoffs. Franzen has a serious head injury and the dude should hang them up because there is life after hockey 



#45 DickieDunn

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:36 AM

I don't hate Franzen but with this last head injury the Wings have to take a look at buying him out when/if he gets healthy. I get that this is an ok contract but if he is sitting in the press box what good is it? Injuries have killed the Red Wings this year and will make it very difficult to make the playoffs. Franzen has a serious head injury and the dude should hang them up because there is life after hockey 

 

Let's leave the medical advice for Franzen to the doctors who actually examine him.  If he is out for the rest of the season, there's no guarantee that he'll be cleared before the compliance buy out window any way, so that won't be an option.   If he does retire, the Wings are hit with a cap penalty of just over $1 mil thanks to the Bettman hissy fit recapture rule, which isn't a killer, but the Wings might opt to let him do the Chris Pronger thing instead of buying him out.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#46 LeftWinger

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:41 AM

I agree on Franzen. I am one of, if not THE biggest Franzen haters here, but if his on ice problems are because of his head issues, and he takes the rest of the season off and over the summer becomes 100% again?  I am all for seeing what a 100% healthy Franzen can do again. If he cannot come back 100% and we miss the buyout period, then he needs to retire.


BTW, there is NO WAY you buy out Zetterberg.  If he gets surgery or just stays off the ice until next season to get healthy again, you give him every chance to do so.  If he cannot do it, then let him retire.  No way you buy him out and risk him becoming healthy again only to sign in Pittsburgh or Boston or Tampa...


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#47 stillwater

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:38 PM

I agree on Franzen. I am one of, if not THE biggest Franzen haters here, but if his on ice problems are because of his head issues, and he takes the rest of the season off and over the summer becomes 100% again?  I am all for seeing what a 100% healthy Franzen can do again. If he cannot come back 100% and we miss the buyout period, then he needs to retire.


I think Franzen is a fine player when healthy.

Would you hazard to guess how many times you've posted the exact same thing? Do you just have it copied and pasted at all times?

#48 LeftWinger

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 06:44 PM

honestly, I have never really posted that I want to see what Franzen does when he is healthy.  I have always said, trade him, cut him, buy him out, retire, etc... I never really cared before if he was healthy or not, I always wanted him gone.  BUT, knowing now what I do know about his injury may be due to his first one back in 2008, I am willing to let him sit out and get 100% and then if he comes back and plays like he did in 2008, or if he still stinks, then I will form my opinion of him...

 

but, please, since you obviously posted just to try and tear me down, take the time and go back prior to the announcement that he may be having issues from his 2008 injury and show me where I said that if Franzen was healthy that I would love him here...if indeed his injury in 2008 is what has caused his decline over the years, then I was wrong and would welcome back a 100% healthy Franzen who can push for 30-40 goals and show up in the playoffs...

 

but until recently I have said nothing but how much I hated him and how much the choice was wrong.  I am not saying that I will not dislike him anymore, but I will at least wait to see if he gets 100%.  If he keeps attempting pre-mature comebacks then he is not only hurting this team, but himself.  He needs to become 100% healthy and get a 100% ok from the doctor before I want him back on this team.  If he cannot get 100%. then he needs to retire or get bought out if we can get that determination before the buyout period ends...


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#49 DickieDunn

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:14 PM

You said still stinks. That implies that he stunk previously, which is false.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#50 Richdg

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:23 PM

grantland.com/features/hockeys-worst-contracts/


2 RW's on there. What is interesting is Franzen and Hossa are both on the list.



#51 e_prime

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:01 PM

grantland.com/features/hockeys-worst-contracts/


2 RW's on there. What is interesting is Franzen and Hossa are both on the list.

 

Written by Sean McIndoe aka Down Goes Brown... Mr. Satire, Sarcasm, and Tounge-in-Cheek Humorist of the NHL.

 

So take it for what it's worth.

 

I will give him credit for saying that Clarkson's is the worst.  He's no apologist when it comes to his own team.


QUOTE
(AtomicPunk @ February 4, 2010 - 12:16AM)

Imma let you finish, and your cap numbers are all good and all that, but imma let Kenny figure it out. Kenny's cap numbers were the best cap numbers this year.

#52 ben_usmc

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:09 PM

 

Alfredsson is far from useless.  Anytime you can add a player who will help your team, even if it's only going to be for a year or two, you do it.  His signing, and the Weiss contract, aren't the problem.  Weiss's season long groin issues make Weiss a problem, but that's not something you know will happen, and any player might get hurt.

 

The real problem was that Holland made a bad assumption that he'd be able to trade someone when he signed Cleary.  That led to no roster space or cap room for Nyquist.  I said at the time that I didn't mind CLeary coming back, but the deal shouldn't have been finalized until someone was traded.

There was absolutely no way Cleary was more deserving of a roster spot than anyone else. His resigning was pathetic, and anyone who points out his "playoff warrior" status should take a deeper look at how he accumulated those points. 


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#53 anthonyn66

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:14 AM

What we should do (and the only logical thing to do at this point) is buy out Zetterberg. It's the only way we'll stay competitive the next 10 years. He's a locker room cancer, doesn't produce, I'm sick of him...

 

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Maybe this is management's wake up call and after Z, we'll take care of Pavel 'one-dimensional' Datsyuk and Niklas 'soft' Kronwall



#54 Uncle Danny

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:39 AM

What we should do (and the only logical thing to do at this point) is buy out Zetterberg. It's the only way we'll stay competitive the next 10 years. He's a locker room cancer, doesn't produce, I'm sick of him...

 

http://www.wingingit...-the-malcontent

 

Maybe this is management's wake up call and after Z, we'll take care of Pavel 'one-dimensional' Datsyuk and Niklas 'soft' Kronwall

You just broke my sarcasm, and it hurts.


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#55 number9

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:10 AM

PleAssseeee buy out our top LW and top PWF, others teams deserve their prowess.

Move Tatar and Nyquist for Bogosian

= cup

#56 55fan

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:21 AM

PleAssseeee buy out our top LW and top PWF, others teams deserve their prowess.

Move Tatar and Nyquist for Bogosian

= cup

You forgot Lebda.  No Lebda=no cup.

 

Seriously, the last time we won a cup (long, long ago, in an arena far away), we did it because of Z and Mule amongst others.  They and Pavel and Kronwall are older and Lids is gone, but we have a new generation of hot young guns coming up.  They now are providing the leadership once provided by Lids and Rafalski. 

 

I'd say that once the kids mature a wee bit more, we're sitting better than we've been in a while.  Mule, Z, Pavel, and Kronner aren't as young as they were, but they can still get it done.  Mule and Z must regain their health first, but if they can do that as the kids are progressing, the future is bright. 



#57 DeGraa55

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:54 AM

The future is bright IF the kids all pan out(which honestly who is dumb enough to think that?). It's also bright if Franzen ever becomes something he has only been ONCE in his entire career and that's a 30+ goal scorer and with injury issue and age it's fair to say it most likely won't ever happen again.

Now z I agree if he stays healthy he is the leader you want on your team and I really don't think ANYONE would deny that.

The problem is this team needs a legit goal scorer which we don't have. I'm talking 35-40 goal scorer or more not 20-25 which this team is full of. Even if it means a guy who doesn't play defense we have plenty who do.

We also need a number one defenseman. I personally feel that can come from within but it goes back to the part If the young guys work out does one become a number one? Cause let's be honest we are not getting a number one through trade or free agency any time soon. So that brings the question can kronewall and big e be the top pair? I believe so. Not because one or the other is an elite player but because they're both very good just not like top 10 top 15 D. I also feel If Babcock pulled his head out of his ass smith and dekeyser could be second pair. Smith looked good when he was with kronwall so maybe try that and big e with dekeyser either way I think those four can be a top four.

So I guess to sum it up. This team is close if the young guys pan out we drop the old and useless in off season and add a legit goal scorer(maybe I'm surprised and it's one I the young guys...but I doubt it). Which can be done while keeping Franzen for those of you who love him but I'd still rather see him gone. If it was the difference between say jurco and Franzen? I'd take jurco. Or glendening or Sheahan or Callahan or pretty much any if the griffins lol.

#58 DickieDunn

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 08:52 AM

Name 20 defensemen who are clearly better than Kronwall and I'll agree they don't have a #1 D.  The problem is Ericsson is only adequate at #2 and while Dekeyser might get there, he's not there now.

 

Going back to the 10-11 season, Franzen has 80G, 165 pts in 225 games.  Per 82 games, that's 29G 60 pts.  Datsyuk has 72/136/208 in 210 games, per 80 he's at 28G 81 pts.  Zetterberg has 73/172/245 in 253 games, 24G 79 pts per 82.  So you're saying that just a few more goals so Franzen and Datsyuk were averaging 30 instead of 29 and 28 respectively would make a difference?  I call BS.  Fans are just too obsessed with round numbers.  Too many people act like there's a big difference between 29 and 30, but no difference between 30 and 31.  Vanek is only a little better per 82 games than Franzen at 31 G and 72 pts. playing a lot bigger role than he probably would here.  

 

The difference between Franzen and Jurco is that Franzen is a proven goal scorer while Jurco just has potential.  He might score 30 a year, or he might not hit 20 a year on a regular basis.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#59 DeGraa55

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:05 PM

Here is a fact at the olympic break our leading goal scorer is 66th on the list at 16 goals.

Detroit in 19th for goals for....

Not good enough we need goal scorers.

I can also do that game to, in franzens first two years he scored 22 goals combined see cherry picking stats!! It's a fact that he is a 25-30 goal scorer but he isn't a 30+. He also brings nothing else but laziness to the team. Which would be find if he was actually good at scoring goals. He should be scoring 40-50 goals with no problem but can't cause he is lazy. People talk about how great z and dat are and that they elevate their line mates so why aren't they elevating Franzen? Or maybe they are and they carried the load for his laziness? For the people that actually watch game Franzen very rarely ever earns a goal. Someone usually makes an outstanding play giving him a free goal.


What's with specifically saying vanek all the time? Christ it's annoying when some says a "vanek type player". That doesn't mean it has to be him. It's just the idea of having a legit sniper that can score A LOT of goals not a mid level amount.

The difference is vanek in the last nine years has 260 goals Franzen has 173. Average them out Franzen is a 19 goal a year and vanek is a 29 goal a year. One has shown they can score more than 30 consistently. Vanek is also younger and a righty shot. All things that we need.

Now the mobile version sucks of Espn to so idk if that's each players whole career or if it only shows 9 years? But it kind of shows the difference between the to...I also couldn't see the games played difference not sure who has advantage there given the fact franzens been out a lot I hope vanek does but I wasn't able to see. I'll have to wait until I'm in computer to look.

#60 Son of a Wing

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:44 PM

I swear DeGraa55 and Richdg are the same person...lol


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