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10 ton elephant in the room.


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#61 DickieDunn

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:10 PM

Here is a fact at the olympic break our leading goal scorer is 66th on the list at 16 goals.

Detroit in 19th for goals for....

Not good enough we need goal scorers.

I can also do that game to, in franzens first two years he scored 22 goals combined see cherry picking stats!! It's a fact that he is a 25-30 goal scorer but he isn't a 30+. He also brings nothing else but laziness to the team. Which would be find if he was actually good at scoring goals. He should be scoring 40-50 goals with no problem but can't cause he is lazy. People talk about how great z and dat are and that they elevate their line mates so why aren't they elevating Franzen? Or maybe they are and they carried the load for his laziness? For the people that actually watch game Franzen very rarely ever earns a goal. Someone usually makes an outstanding play giving him a free goal.


What's with specifically saying vanek all the time? Christ it's annoying when some says a "vanek type player". That doesn't mean it has to be him. It's just the idea of having a legit sniper that can score A LOT of goals not a mid level amount.

The difference is vanek in the last nine years has 260 goals Franzen has 173. Average them out Franzen is a 19 goal a year and vanek is a 29 goal a year. One has shown they can score more than 30 consistently. Vanek is also younger and a righty shot. All things that we need.

Now the mobile version sucks of Espn to so idk if that's each players whole career or if it only shows 9 years? But it kind of shows the difference between the to...I also couldn't see the games played difference not sure who has advantage there given the fact franzens been out a lot I hope vanek does but I wasn't able to see. I'll have to wait until I'm in computer to look.

 

The Wings' leading goal scorer has 16 because all of their goal scorers have missed significant time with the exception of Tatar, not because of a lack of talent.  

 

What a player did 6 years ago is irrelevant.  The last 3 years is a far better gauge of what a player will do the following year.  

 

The last full NHL season, Franzen had 29G, 56 pts, and was in a 3 way tie for the +/- lead on the team.  Vanek had 26G, 61 pts, and was near the bottom of his team's +/- stat.  

 

Vanek is used because he's the top pending free agent, and if you're going to say "Vanek type" you might as well use the original guy.  If you want to go with Moulson or someone else, go ahead.  The comparison between him and Franzen will still be the same.  

 

It an absolute FACT that Johan Franzen is a capable goal scorer.  It is an absolute FACT that there is little difference between 28 or 29 goals and 30 goals.

 

If you're really serious about how Franzen's goals are "gifts" then you need to pay more attention.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#62 VM1138

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:17 PM

I'll take a $4 million dollar goal scorer any day, streaky or with a history of concussions.
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#63 DeGraa55

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:32 PM

But you're forgetting the fact that vanek hasn't had the caliber teammates Franzen has had. In the specific year you looked at Franzen had z and dats and others vanek had? ...pomiville or however it's spelt and? Ya not near the same level. Vanek has done more with less FACT. Younger. Healthier?
You take your 20 goal a year average goal scorer who can't stay on the ice and doesn't play defense and I'll take guys that show up to play.


Hell most of you are still delusional and think we will win a cup this year.

#64 number9

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:45 PM

Hell most of you are still delusional and think we will win a cup this year.


Anyone counting us out is just as delusional

#65 Son of a Wing

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:48 PM

But you're forgetting the fact that vanek hasn't had the caliber teammates Franzen has had. In the specific year you looked at Franzen had z and dats and others vanek had? ...pomiville or however it's spelt and? Ya not near the same level. Vanek has done more with less FACT. Younger. Healthier?
You take your 20 goal a year average goal scorer who can't stay on the ice and doesn't play defense and I'll take guys that show up to play.


Hell most of you are still delusional and think we will win a cup this year.

 

It's called hope. And I will always have it. 

 

It's the people who always think the grass (players) is greener elsewhere who are the problem... Never grateful or even aware of what we have...


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
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When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#66 number9

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:57 PM

 
It's called hope. And I will always have it. 
 
It's the people who always think the grass (players) is greener elsewhere who are the problem... Never grateful or even aware of what we have...


Take off ur rose colored glasses. This team is nothing without Lidstrom. We must trade everyone for cool new draft picks

#67 DickieDunn

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:23 PM

But you're forgetting the fact that vanek hasn't had the caliber teammates Franzen has had. In the specific year you looked at Franzen had z and dats and others vanek had? ...pomiville or however it's spelt and? Ya not near the same level. Vanek has done more with less FACT. Younger. Healthier?
You take your 20 goal a year average goal scorer who can't stay on the ice and doesn't play defense and I'll take guys that show up to play.


Hell most of you are still delusional and think we will win a cup this year.

 

Franzen's defense is better than Vanek's by a big step, and Vanek's offense isn't that far ahead for Franzen's.  Franzen has spent just as much time with Filppula and other 2nd line caliber players as he has with Datsyuk and Zetterberg, and has been on the 2nd PP unit at times.Vanek plays more minutes and not only is he always on the first PP unit, he's their go to guy instead of just one of them. 


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#68 kipwinger

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:28 PM

I once saw Thomas Vanek score a goal from the moon.  Conversely, I once saw Johan Franzen throw a banana at a baby and yell "here's your banana...monkey". 

 

I think we all know who the better player is.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#69 DeGraa55

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 07:52 PM

There's a difference between hope and crazy.

I hope we win the cup to. But facts and common sense say it's 99.9% we don't.

We are only a couple of players away from having a legit shot but holland won't make the moves necessary. We may disagree on the players but I think we all can agree on that.

#70 DickieDunn

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 08:16 PM

There's a difference between hope and crazy.

I hope we win the cup to. But facts and common sense say it's 99.9% we don't.

We are only a couple of players away from having a legit shot but holland won't make the moves necessary. We may disagree on the players but I think we all can agree on that.

 

 

Short of "trade the guys we don't want for good players" there aren't many decent moves available.  Any trade would most likely require an over payment from what another team is willing to give up in order to make up for the other team taking back Quincey or Samuelsson to balance the salary.  

 

That said, if they can manage to swing a trade for a d-man as good or better than Ericsson, I think that's enough to put the team over the top, assuming they're relatively healthy for the playoffs.  Once the cap doesn't apply they can call up whatever kids they want.

 

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader

Nyquist-Weiss-Franzen

Tatar-Helm-Alfredsson

Miller-Sheahan-Andersson/Glendening

 

Kronwall-Ericsson

New guy-Dekeyser

Smith-whoever

 

The 6th D spot can be Quincey, Kindl, Lashoff, or another trade.  If Franzen is having head issues, slot Jurco into the lineup.


Edited by DickieDunn, 18 February 2014 - 08:17 PM.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#71 soonboomer

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:38 PM

Maybe it's been mentioned in this thread already, but Franzen's main perception problem is that he's a *****. A guy that big has to be one of the guys who makes a stand when you're getting pushed around, and Franzen's never been that guy. If Mule had a bit more Shanny in him, he'd be loved.  Fact is though, when he's healthy, he's worth his salary.


kitten



#72 Echolalia

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 11:58 PM

There's a difference between hope and crazy.

I hope we win the cup to. But facts and common sense say it's 99.9% we don't.

We are only a couple of players away from having a legit shot but holland won't make the moves necessary. We may disagree on the players but I think we all can agree on that.


Facts and common sense say the Wings have a 99.9% chance of not winning the Cup?

#73 DeGraa55

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 12:28 AM

Depends how anal you wanna be but yea. I mean to start the year every team has a 1 in 30 shot but how many actually have a shot.

I mean Detroit has a very minimal shot of even making the playoffs. But yes IF we make and IF Franzen has a freak playoff streak he has had once and a few others got hot sure we could win. But it's A LOT of ifs. Specially with serious injuries and old age. It doesn't look good at all.

#74 FlashyG

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:40 AM

Depends how anal you wanna be but yea. I mean to start the year every team has a 1 in 30 shot but how many actually have a shot.

I mean Detroit has a very minimal shot of even making the playoffs. But yes IF we make and IF Franzen has a freak playoff streak he has had once and a few others got hot sure we could win. But it's A LOT of ifs. Specially with serious injuries and old age. It doesn't look good at all.

 

I actually agree our chances of winning the cup are quite slim, but how would buying out one of our best players improve them?

 

Maybe if we signed a better scorer and needed to make room to get under the cap it could be done, but in what world does buying out Franzen then trying to replace him in Free Agency make sense?

 

Have you paid any attention to the prices of Free Agents the past few off-seasons? or to the fact that we can no longer get players to take discounts to come here?

 

We're going to be a bubble team for a couple seasons, lets just accept that and have hope that our prospects will develop into the next wave of players that will return us to the upper echelon of NHL teams.



#75 number9

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:48 AM

There's a difference between hope and crazy.

I hope we win the cup to. But facts and common sense say it's 99.9% we don't.

We are only a couple of players away from having a legit shot but holland won't make the moves necessary. We may disagree on the players but I think we all can agree on that.


Cup favored eastern team, ravaged by injuries, yet still in a wildcard spot. For you that equals 0.1% cup chance???? God bless LGW, it's like the circus with extra clowns.

#76 Son of a Wing

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 11:16 AM

Depends how anal you wanna be but yea. I mean to start the year every team has a 1 in 30 shot but how many actually have a shot.

I mean Detroit has a very minimal shot of even making the playoffs. But yes IF we make and IF Franzen has a freak playoff streak he has had once and a few others got hot sure we could win. But it's A LOT of ifs. Specially with serious injuries and old age. It doesn't look good at all.

 

Every single year it comes down to a lot of "ifs".  

 

IF we can stay healthy...

 

IF Howard can take another step forward...

 

IF Dats and Zetts can maintain their elite play...

 

IF our young defence can raise their game collectively...

 

IF Holland can make a ballsy move...

 

Welcome to sports!  Some people never cease to amaze me with their glass-half-empty mindsets.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#77 DeGraa55

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:21 PM

But that's the problem with relying too heavily on old aging players that are having serious injury issues. Franzens and z's will be a long term thing whereas dats is more short term I hope.

Holland made stupid moves. Signing guys like Sammy, cleary, colo for two years, bringing back miller when we had too many third and fourth line guys as it is, and the list goes in.

The moves he didn't make like trade for Ryan because he was sick all of 2012/2013 season and his excuse was he was lazy(still all round did better than franzenina).

I personally feel our D Woukd be fine if babs pulled his head out of his ass. Smith did fine when not paired with kindl or Quincey it kind of says something don't it? But he insists on it.

Howard is the least of our issues long term.

We need more players around z and dats short and long term. Alfie and Franzen are not the answers long term, luckily nyquist sure as hell looks like he is. If he was up since day one he would prolly be at what? 20-25 goals?

So to me that's our biggest concern short and long term putting 2 or 3 more good YOUNG reliable pieces around dat and z. Short term Alfie works but he has very little time left.

#78 number9

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:51 PM

But that's the problem with relying too heavily on old aging players that are having serious injury issues. Franzens and z's will be a long term thing whereas dats is more short term I hope.

Holland made stupid moves. Signing guys like Sammy, cleary, colo for two years, bringing back miller when we had too many third and fourth line guys as it is, and the list goes in.

The moves he didn't make like trade for Ryan because he was sick all of 2012/2013 season and his excuse was he was lazy(still all round did better than franzenina).

I personally feel our D Woukd be fine if babs pulled his head out of his ass. Smith did fine when not paired with kindl or Quincey it kind of says something don't it? But he insists on it.

Howard is the least of our issues long term.

We need more players around z and dats short and long term. Alfie and Franzen are not the answers long term, luckily nyquist sure as hell looks like he is. If he was up since day one he would prolly be at what? 20-25 goals?

So to me that's our biggest concern short and long term putting 2 or 3 more good YOUNG reliable pieces around dat and z. Short term Alfie works but he has very little time left.

Oh, you mean like Nyquist? Tatar? Jurco?

Why stop at 3? Sheahan, Pulkkinen, Mantha, Athanasiou, Jarnkrok....

Seems like you and KH have the same plan, go figure.

I wouldn't have made that trade for Bobby Ryan. For us that would be akin to giving up Nyquist, Tatar, and a mid-level 1st rounder (Like a Mantha or Nichushkin). Those 3 pieces will collectively end up being way more valuable in the future than 1 Bobby Ryan. Ottawa was forced to pull triggers with Alfredsson leaving.



#79 number9

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 03:10 PM

Ted Kulfan of the Detroit News just tweeted that Franzen says he's confident he'll be able to play by next week.

Guess that 10 ton elephant lost some weight... :hysterical:



#80 FlashyG

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 03:37 PM

But that's the problem with relying too heavily on old aging players that are having serious injury issues. Franzens and z's will be a long term thing whereas dats is more short term I hope.

Holland made stupid moves. Signing guys like Sammy, cleary, colo for two years, bringing back miller when we had too many third and fourth line guys as it is, and the list goes in.

The moves he didn't make like trade for Ryan because he was sick all of 2012/2013 season and his excuse was he was lazy(still all round did better than franzenina).

I personally feel our D Woukd be fine if babs pulled his head out of his ass. Smith did fine when not paired with kindl or Quincey it kind of says something don't it? But he insists on it.

Howard is the least of our issues long term.

We need more players around z and dats short and long term. Alfie and Franzen are not the answers long term, luckily nyquist sure as hell looks like he is. If he was up since day one he would prolly be at what? 20-25 goals?

So to me that's our biggest concern short and long term putting 2 or 3 more good YOUNG reliable pieces around dat and z. Short term Alfie works but he has very little time left.

 

I agree about the Sammy, Cleary, and Colaiacovo signings, (Not so much Millers though). 

 

But then you go off the rails. Ken Holland tried to get Ryan from the Ducks and was working on a deal to get him for Lashoff, a 2nd or 3rd round Pick and Tomas Tatar. Anaheim wanted more and ultimately got it from Ottawa. It had nothing to do with Ryan missing time, and certainly had nothing to do with "Laziness".

 

Chances are that more would have been Nyquist and then if Ryan went cold we'd have 2, 10 ton elephants in the room and we'd all die of suffocation.

 

Also Alfie is only signed short term, so I'm not sure what your problem is with him. He's played great since he got here, enough so that I'd be happy if we kept him for another season. 







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