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Legwand to Detroit for Eaves, Jarnkrok + cond 3rd/2nd



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#821 DickieDunn

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 01:08 PM

Agree with Ken.With our iron men group of centers,he'd never get a shot :innocent:

 

He could have played in GR and been the first center called up.  He apparently didn't like that idea, he wanted to start the year in the NHL.  Where would he fit into the lineup?  4th line?

 

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Seriously. He basically said that Glendening>Jarnkrok

 

Glendening is a checker, Jarnkrok isn't.  It's about being able to play a role.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#822 Carman

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 01:10 PM

Seriously. He basically said that Glendening>Jarnkrok

 

Which he probably is right now. Glendening is playing a 4th line grinder role better than Jarnkrok could. Jarnkrok has very good two way play, and would be a much better point producer, but the jump from the AHL to the NHL for a top 6 forward is a lot larger and harder than for a 4th line penalty killer. I don't want to say Jarnkrok couldn't bang in the corners and kill penalties I actually think his defensive game is very underrated, but that is not where he's going to make his mark in the NHL. While he's playing well in the AHL, I doubt the Red Wings or Nashville will call him up right now, plug him in on the second line, give him 2 minutes of powerplay time and 16 minutes a night especially if they want to make the playoffs. He's not ready yet, another off season of strength conditioning and he might be ready.



#823 ShanahanMan

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 01:16 PM

 

Which he probably is right now. Glendening is playing a 4th line grinder role better than Jarnkrok could. Jarnkrok has very good two way play, and would be a much better point producer, but the jump from the AHL to the NHL for a top 6 forward is a lot larger and harder than for a 4th line penalty killer. I don't want to say Jarnkrok couldn't bang in the corners and kill penalties I actually think his defensive game is very underrated, but that is not where he's going to make his mark in the NHL. While he's playing well in the AHL, I doubt the Red Wings or Nashville will call him up right now, plug him in on the second line, give him 2 minutes of powerplay time and 16 minutes a night especially if they want to make the playoffs. He's not ready yet, another off season of strength conditioning and he might be ready.

 

Sorry, I was under the impression that checkers/grinders are way easier to come by than bonafide skilled centers.

 

Silly me. 




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#824 Dave

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 01:18 PM

 

Sorry, I was under the impression that checkers/grinders are way easier to come by than bonafide skilled centers.

 

Silly me. 

 

NHL players are harder to come by than AHL players.



#825 wings87

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 01:19 PM

The can buy him out, but not as a compliance buy out.  They'd have a cap hit for it.


Thanks. I think the fact that there would be a cap hit, takes the buyout of the table.

I actually hope he returns soon, so we can at least see what a healthy Weiss looks like.

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#826 Son of a Wing

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 01:20 PM

 

Sorry, I was under the impression that checkers/grinders are way easier to come by than bonafide skilled centers.

 

Silly me. 

 

Exactly why he had value in the trade.  Thanks for pointing that out.


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#827 DickieDunn

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 01:28 PM

Remember all the times Holland was ripped for saying he looked at a few things but ultimately the price was too high to make a deal?  Remember all the people that demanded he make a deal this year or he needed to be fired?  Jarnkrok was what it took.  You can't have it both ways, and border line NHL prospects like Almquist and Ferraro aren't going to get a deal done.  Does anyone really believe that Andersson, Sheahan, Glendening, and Emmerton down the middle would have been anything but a disaster?  Does anyone think that trading Jurco would have been better?


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#828 Datsyukian-Deke

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 01:34 PM

I'm as angry about the trade as the next guy but something I didn't consider is Legwand really hasn't played with any superstar type players so he could rejuvenate his career playing with franzen, Z, or Datsyuk when they are healthy.

#829 pucktividi

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 01:39 PM

 

Which he probably is right now. Glendening is playing a 4th line grinder role better than Jarnkrok could. Jarnkrok has very good two way play, and would be a much better point producer, but the jump from the AHL to the NHL for a top 6 forward is a lot larger and harder than for a 4th line penalty killer. I don't want to say Jarnkrok couldn't bang in the corners and kill penalties I actually think his defensive game is very underrated, but that is not where he's going to make his mark in the NHL. While he's playing well in the AHL, I doubt the Red Wings or Nashville will call him up right now, plug him in on the second line, give him 2 minutes of powerplay time and 16 minutes a night especially if they want to make the playoffs. He's not ready yet, another off season of strength conditioning and he might be ready.

Agree with everything you've said,but we're talking about Ken the overripe master who threw kid under the bus after 40 AHL games while playing top 6 minutes for the Griffins.

 

Understand his position.He had to overpay to help the Wings,but it's not fair to criticize kid's and Blashill's work just to justify himself in this trade.



#830 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 02:04 PM

You guys really don't seem to get it.  There's only so many spots for so many roles.
 
Jarnkrok is not a checker so he's not fighting for the same spot as Glendening.
 
The 12 most skilled forwards do not make the team....


Who gives a Crap about glendening he'll be out of the league within 5 yrs

Zetterberg dats and legwand are 33+ they don't have much time .... Very early but weiss has been a disaster and legwand could of probably been had July 1 would just did like Minnesota and thrown the 2 2nd rounders instead

You wanna trade janrkrok? Use him as a key piece in a deal to get the top 4 dman we wanted to get whether it be now or the off season not a 33 yr old ufa ..... Now if kenny gets in his panicky mood in the off season to get a dman say goodby to a Tatar/jurco/pulkkinen type prospect as well

Remember all the times Holland was ripped for saying he looked at a few things but ultimately the price was too high to make a deal?  Remember all the people that demanded he make a deal this year or he needed to be fired?  Jarnkrok was what it took.  You can't have it both ways, and border line NHL prospects like Almquist and Ferraro aren't going to get a deal done.  Does anyone really believe that Andersson, Sheahan, Glendening, and Emmerton down the middle would have been anything but a disaster?  Does anyone think that trading Jurco would have been better?


At that point he should of done nothing ... Best moves sometimes are the ones you don't make .... Do we have a chance to a make it in the playoffs? Yes but let's be realistic and not delude ourselves our chances aren't very good and were more likely not to get in .... With legwand or without him

#831 Internet.Unknown

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 02:05 PM

i'm embarrassed to be a red wings fan today.

 

thanks a lot, ken.

 

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#832 wingsfan91

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 02:07 PM

I think the only way to rationalize a trade is to look at it from 2 different approaches:

 

1. The current value of the player as an asset to his team. (defined by: NHL production, Tangible stats, Chemistry with other players.. ETC)

2. The potential value of the player as a long term asset to his team. (defined by: AHL/CHL/KHL production, Potential, Age, Skillset)

 

In the case of Calle Jarnkrok, you identify a player who had virtually no value to the Detroit Red Wings as a current asset. As Ken Holland stated, he was never going to make this team while Datysuk, Zetterberg, Weiss, Helm, Andersson and Glendenning were playing ahead of him. And based on his physical tools, we was never going to make this team as 3rd/4th line Center either - meaning he would have had to play in a top 6 Center role (although I am unsure of his ability to play either wing) which wasn't going to happen anytime soon.

 

As a long term asset, he would have continued to be affected by playing in an organization with a deep pool of players in front of him (at the same position) - that fact on its own brings substance to the idea of him playing in Europe. The problem for the Red Wings was continuing to limit his value as a long term asset by keeping him in the minors at the age of 22,23,24.. etc. Collaterally, you are limiting his "trade bait" potential by doing so. So while you are banking on him being a very good top 6 player one day, it also makes sense to maximize his long term value through trade.

 

Although I admit the returns for Vanek, Gaborik, Luongo and Moulson seemed to actually be less than what we traded for Legwand - the trade becomes a very good deal if David Legwand decides to re-sign in Detroit. Eaves is a healthy scratch right now and was gone in July, this years (mid-late) second round pick comes in a weak draft, and Jarnkrok has yet to play a shift in the NHL. David Legwand has had what I consider to be "deflated stats" playing in Nashville's system and can provide right now what Jarnkrok scouts think he might be able to provide one day.

 

Time will tell, but don't write off a guy who's been to the playoffs 22 years in a row, he may know more than we do.



#833 Dave

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 02:08 PM

Who gives a Crap about glendening he'll be out of the league within 5 yrs

Zetterberg dats and legwand are 33+ they don't have much time .... Very early but weiss has been a disaster and legwand could of probably been had July 1 would just did like Minnesota and thrown the 2 2nd rounders instead

You wanna trade janrkrok? Use him as a key piece in a deal to get the top 4 dman we wanted to get whether it be now or the off season not a 33 yr old ufa ..... Now if kenny gets in his panicky mood in the off season to get a dman say goodby to a Tatar/jurco/pulkkinen type prospect as well

At that point he should of done nothing ... Best moves sometimes are the ones you don't make .... Do we have a chance to a make it in the playoffs? Yes but let's be realistic and not delude ourselves our chances aren't very good and were more likely not to get in .... With legwand or without him

 

 

None of this makes any sense at all. You're telling me that the defense corps is worse than having Andersson as the 1C? You would rather roll with Andersson as our number 1 center than have Dekeyser, and Quincy as the #3/4 dmen?

 

You're whole theory is banking on Jarnkrok becoming a stud. You want to bank the season on Jarnkrok becoming a star?



#834 frankgrimes

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 02:11 PM

Agree with everything you've said,but we're talking about Ken the overripe master who threw kid under the bus after 40 AHL games while playing top 6 minutes for the Griffins.

 

Understand his position.He had to overpay to help the Wings,but it's not fair to criticize kid's and Blashill's work just to justify himself in this trade.

 

Like I said for me its not about Legwand I like him but I'm getting sick of Holland and his mojo:

- we are only making hockey deals --> this was highway robbery by Poile so the opposite from a hockeydeal

- throwing kids under the bus to make himself look better or like a genius for no good reason

- says you can't fix one of the teams biggest problems toughness, grit well Burke, Mactavish fixed it within weeks

- he now likes our youth and what is he doing ? Trades away our best center prospect yeah Jarnkrok needs to bulk up and put on some serious muscle but the kid is 20 plenty of time to do that

 

Still wanna get rid of the kid? Fine package him for some much needed defensive help you know someone like Ehrhoff, Myers or use Vancouvers firesale to your advantage a get a guy like Hamhuis or Bieksa (maybe both) here.

 

This is not the mastermind we are used to. Between 2009 and 2014 something has changed. Thanks for all the great work Holland but now I'm wishing you would have retired with Lidström and made room for another guy.


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#835 Son of a Wing

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 02:12 PM

I think the only way to rationalize a trade is to look at it from 2 different approaches:

 

1. The current value of the player as an asset to his team. (defined by: NHL production, Tangible stats, Chemistry with other players.. ETC)

2. The potential value of the player as a long term asset to his team. (defined by: AHL/CHL/KHL production, Potential, Age, Skillset)

 

In the case of Calle Jarnkrok, you identify a player who had virtually no value to the Detroit Red Wings as a current asset. As Ken Holland stated, he was never going to make this team while Datysuk, Zetterberg, Weiss, Helm, Andersson and Glendenning were playing ahead of him. And based on his physical tools, we was never going to make this team as 3rd/4th line Center either - meaning he would have had to play in a top 6 Center role (although I am unsure of his ability to play either wing) which wasn't going to happen anytime soon.

 

As a long term asset, he would have continued to be affected by playing in an organization with a deep pool of players in front of him (at the same position) - that fact on its own brings substance to the idea of him playing in Europe. The problem for the Red Wings was continuing to limit his value as a long term asset by keeping him in the minors at the age of 22,23,24.. etc. Collaterally, you are limiting his "trade bait" potential by doing so. So while you are banking on him being a very good top 6 player one day, it also makes sense to maximize his long term value through trade.

 

Although I admit the returns for Vanek, Gaborik, Luongo and Moulson seemed to actually be less than what we traded for Legwand - the trade becomes a very good deal if David Legwand decides to re-sign in Detroit. Eaves is a healthy scratch right now and was gone in July, this years (mid-late) second round pick comes in a weak draft, and Jarnkrok has yet to play a shift in the NHL. David Legwand has had what I consider to be "deflated stats" playing in Nashville's system and can provide right now what Jarnkrok scouts think he might be able to provide one day.

 

Time will tell, but don't write off a guy who's been to the playoffs 22 years in a row, he may know more than we do.

 

Great Post. Nice to actually see a well thought out argument hitting on many key points while also addressing each side.


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When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#836 joesuffP

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 02:13 PM

Imagine the pressure Weiss would feel to return to being top line center by yourself to take the team to the playoffs

#837 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 02:18 PM

None of this makes any sense at all. You're telling me that the defense corps is worse than having Andersson as the 1C? You would rather roll with Andersson as our number 1 center than have Dekeyser, and Quincy as the #3/4 dmen?
 
You're whole theory is banking on Jarnkrok becoming a stud. You want to bank the season on Jarnkrok becoming a star?

You have to look ahead towards the future .... Getting the top 4 dman would be a lot more valuable .... Everyone's just thinking about the present and keeping the streak alive ... While it's nice I much rather prefer looking ahead

Our chances of getting in the playoffs let alone winning the cup aren't great this season ... Just being realistic

Imagine the pressure Weiss would feel to return to being top line center by yourself to take the team to the playoffs

As opposed to playing on a team stacked full of talent and having no pressure on him and yet producing mediocre numbers that even Hayley wickenheiser would surpass?

Edited by nyqvististhefuture, 06 March 2014 - 02:20 PM.


#838 Carman

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 02:21 PM

Who gives a Crap about glendening he'll be out of the league within 5 yrs

Zetterberg dats and legwand are 33+ they don't have much time .... Very early but weiss has been a disaster and legwand could of probably been had July 1 would just did like Minnesota and thrown the 2 2nd rounders instead

You wanna trade janrkrok? Use him as a key piece in a deal to get the top 4 dman we wanted to get whether it be now or the off season not a 33 yr old ufa ..... Now if kenny gets in his panicky mood in the off season to get a dman say goodby to a Tatar/jurco/pulkkinen type prospect as well

At that point he should of done nothing ... Best moves sometimes are the ones you don't make .... Do we have a chance to a make it in the playoffs? Yes but let's be realistic and not delude ourselves our chances aren't very good and were more likely not to get in .... With legwand or without him

Hmm, our chances right now  are 52%, win tonight and it would be about 60%. Having Legwand playing the rest of the season drastically improves our chances of making the playoffs. And if we make the playoffs and get healthy we could be a very serious contender. There was no reason to waste this season of having Alfredsson, Datsyuk and Zetterberg, that would be a mistake. Worst case scenario is we miss the playoffs this year, get healthy next year and become a very legitimate threat in the eastern conference with our strong center depth. If our team is healthy we have a very good team.

 

I think there is more to be gained to improve our chances at making the playoffs this year, and most likely the next few years to come during Datsyuk and Zetterberg's prime, than risk losing a prospect that wouldn't have made an impact on the team for at least a couple more seasons. Legwand improves our team now, and will be a better NHL player during Datsyuk/Zetterberg's prime than Jarnkrok.

 

Just in case you are wondering where i got the chances for playoffs http://www.sportsclu...ts.com/NHL.html



#839 Dave

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 02:23 PM

You have to look ahead towards the future .... Getting the top 4 dman would be a lot more valuable .... Everyone's just thinking about the present and keeping the streak alive ... While it's nice I much rather prefer looking ahead

Our chances of getting in the playoffs let alone winning the cup aren't great this season ... Just being realistic
As opposed to playing on a team stacked full of talent and having no pressure on him and yet producing mediocre numbers that even Hayley wickenheiser would surpass?

 

yuck_imdone.gif



#840 Son of a Wing

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 02:26 PM

 

yuck_imdone.gif

 

Haha there can't be a better way to express my feelings then that. Made my day. lol


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”





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