Is the Real Brendan Smith Finally Starting the Show Up?

[kipwinger 8,518]

Disregarding the fact that Babcock hands out icetime based on the lottery numbers of that day, Smith doesn't have to get more icetime than Kronwall, Dekeyser and Ericsson/Quincey to be playing well. I was one of Smith's biggest critics last year, but he's improved a lot. He has a long way to go before he's someone to be trusted in key situations, but lately he does a lot of good things and not as many boneheaded mistakes.

I'll agree that he's better than he was last year. So is Brian Lashoff. But Lashoff doesn't get his own special thread and unlimited praise/excuse making. Despite the fact that, unlike Smith, he actually contributes to this team in critical situations (read: Penalty Kill, the one thing this team seems to excel at).

I guess if we're to the point in which "Smith f***s up less than a year ago" is somehow worthy of acknowledgement, then so be it. But I'm still not sure why so many people are just dying to get that off their chests.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

I thought he had a pretty good game. He really is way too passive when he's on the rush - just shoot the puck.

I'd still like to see him get paired with DeKeyser, but that might be risky for DK's development. DK might be better off with Kronwall for now. This is where I would have loved to still have Stuart here. I think he would have made a great partner for Smith.

[matt198913 932]

Here's a video of the game highlights, about 10 seconds into the clip Mickey and Ken talk about how the Babs had changed the defensive pairing. It was about 8 minutes into the game, and the only penalty in the period had occured 5 minutes before.

Could he have been tinkering? Sure. But if the Kronwall-Smith pairing was such a resounding success as others (not you) have made it appear, I don't see why he'd need to. The truth is, while Smith wasn't bad last night, he didn't really have much of an effect one way or another. So I don't understand all the back slapping. Our penalty kill won the game for us last night, and Quincey and Lashoff had HUGE nights on the Pk, but I don't see anyone going to such great lengths to congratulate them on their contributions. But if Brendan Smith manages to go one game without a mindblowing f*** up it's a cause for celebration.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/03/red_wings_show_resiliency_batt.html

It was due to the wings just killing off the Powerplay. Smith played great last night especially against Crosby. If the game had been played 5 on 5 I'd venture to say he would have finished with 20 plus minutes, but because of his past mistakes he doesn't play the PP or rarely the PK he played 19. He was great against Crosby and really got to show off that great skating ability. Looks freaking effortless when he's in full stride. I think his biggest problem is trust in his D partner. You see what he looks like with Kronwall. Pretty dern good but with Kindl, Quincey, and Lashoff... Not so much. Bottom line Smith and Kronwall should be the top D pair for this run. They really did a nice job of shutting down the games best froward and the chemistry is undeniable. Keep it going Smitty

[dirtydangles 1,328]

I'll agree that he's better than he was last year. So is Brian Lashoff. But Lashoff doesn't get his own special thread and unlimited praise/excuse making. Despite the fact that, unlike Smith, he actually contributes to this team in critical situations (read: Penalty Kill, the one thing this team seems to excel at).

I guess if we're to the point in which "Smith f***s up less than a year ago" is somehow worthy of acknowledgement, then so be it. But I'm still not sure why so many people are just dying to get that off their chests.

Did Smith piss in your cheerios? He had a very good game. He went up against crosby a number of times and came out of it with the puck. Aside from his dumb moment against Edmonton he has been very good over the last 4 games. He is showing poise - and Kronner isn't just covering up for him - I haven't seen Kronner have to straight up bail smith out when they played together - its more that he has a partner that is confident and supports him.

Quincey, although he has played much better defensively lately (credit due), still gives the puck away way too much - this tends to be a stretch pass that gets intercepted at our blue line that comes back for a shot.

[kipwinger 8,518]

Did Smith piss in your cheerios? He had a very good game. He went up against crosby a number of times and came out of it with the puck. Aside from his dumb moment against Edmonton he has been very good over the last 4 games. He is showing poise - and Kronner isn't just covering up for him - I haven't seen Kronner have to straight up bail smith out when they played together - its more that he has a partner that is confident and supports him.

Quincey, although he has played much better defensively lately (credit due), still gives the puck away way too much - this tends to be a stretch pass that gets intercepted at our blue line that comes back for a shot.

This is what I'm talking about. You're using turnovers to criticize Quincey and willfully ignoring the fact that Smith has MORE of them. It is a FACT that despite almost 3 fewer minutes on ice per game (average), Smith still has MORE turnovers. And here you are saying Quincey's bad because he turns the puck over too much.

Am I eating crazy pills? Quincey plays more even strength and special teams, has more hits, more blocked shots, fewer giveaways, more takeaways, more shots, more goals, and fewer missed shots.

Smith has five fewer penalties, and four more assists than Quincey. That's it. In no other way is he a better player, and yet everyone around here will defend him to the death and blame Quincey to the moon.

Smith didn't piss in my cheerios. I do, however, get frustrated when purported "intelligent" fans A) don't see that Smith isn't all that good (yet), and B) blame his mediocre play on someone else (as if his failure to shoot, hit, block shots, pass, or take the puck away is somehow Kindl, Lashoff, or Quincey's fault).

Edited March 21, 2014 by kipwinger

[Guest DeGraa55]

This is what I'm talking about. You're using turnovers to criticize Quincey and willfully ignoring the fact that Smith has MORE of them. It is a FACT that despite almost 3 fewer minutes on ice per game (average), Smith still has MORE turnovers. And here you are saying Quincey's bad because he turns the puck over too much.

Am I eating crazy pills? Quincey plays more even strength and special teams, has more hits, more blocked shots, fewer giveaways, more takeaways, more shots, more goals, and fewer missed shots.

Smith has five fewer penalties, and four more assists than Quincey. That's it. In no other way is he a better player, and yet everyone around here will defend him to the death and blame Quincey to the moon.

Smith didn't piss in my cheerios. I do, however, get frustrated when purported "intelligent" fans A) don't see that Smith isn't all that good (yet), and B) blame his mediocre play on someone else (as if his failure to shoot, hit, block shots, pass, or take the puck away is somehow Kindl, Lashoff, or Quincey's fault).

I'm not going to argue with you cause it's a waste if time. But I do find it funny you brag Quincey has more goals in more ice time AND in the power play. And it's 4 goals to 3. That's kind of a piss poor argument. Smith is also SECOND in assist for our defenseman.

Just watching the games so far it's pretty clear that kronwall and smith together has been our defensive pairing this year...unfortunately in limited games.

Edited March 21, 2014 by DeGraa55

[ben_usmc 253]

I'll agree that he's better than he was last year. So is Brian Lashoff. But Lashoff doesn't get his own special thread and unlimited praise/excuse making. Despite the fact that, unlike Smith, he actually contributes to this team in critical situations (read: Penalty Kill, the one thing this team seems to excel at).

I guess if we're to the point in which "Smith f***s up less than a year ago" is somehow worthy of acknowledgement, then so be it. But I'm still not sure why so many people are just dying to get that off their chests.

Lashoff hadn't really been anything worth mentioning one way or another, until recently.

[kipwinger 8,518]

I'm not going to argue with you cause it's a waste if time. But I do find it funny you brag Quincey has more goals in more ice time AND in the power play. And it's 4 goals to 3. That's kind of a piss poor argument. Smith is also SECOND in assist for our defenseman.

Just watching the games so far it's pretty clear that kronwall and smith together has been our defensive pairing this year...unfortunately in limited games.

Nice try. Quincey doesn't play on the powerplay, and he still scores as often as the offensive dynamo Smith does. Smith's an "offensive" d-man who doesn't score. At least Quincey's a defensive d-man who plays defense.

Edit: Oh man, I just looked up our teams' offensive zone starts. Looks like Smith gets more O-zone starts than anyone on the team other than Lashoff. Wanna take a guess who gets the most D-zone starts? You guessed it...Quincey.

So not only does he do his job better than Smith...his job is actually quantifiably harder to do that Smith's too.

Edited March 22, 2014 by kipwinger

[dirtydangles 1,328]

Nice try. Quincey doesn't play on the powerplay, and he still scores as often as the offensive dynamo Smith does. Smith's an "offensive" d-man who doesn't score. At least Quincey's a defensive d-man who plays defense.

Ummm until the last 10 game stretch Quincey hasn't been very good at all defensively... Quincey is an older and more developed player than Smith so of course he may make less mistakes but the difference is Quincey makes boneheaded mistakes DESPITE being in the league for a long time and hasn't learned from them. Smith is still raw and hasn't had all the learning experiences yet. So if you want to go and rip on smith for his shortcomings then you better start ripping on tatar for all his turnovers by trying to do too much with the puck and rip on DD for his low point totals which are comparable with Smith's despite getting PP time. So just rip on ALL the rookies for playing like rookies and say players that have been in the league longer are better - that way you will be consistent.

[rick zombo 3,739]

Nice try. Quincey doesn't play on the powerplay, and he still scores as often as the offensive dynamo Smith does. Smith's an "offensive" d-man who doesn't score. At least Quincey's a defensive d-man who plays defense.

True. But Quincey’s got waaaaaay more NHL games under his belt. Smith’s at the age roughly that Quincey was when they waved him the first time. Mind you that D group was tougher to crack than this one.

I’m neither pro or anti Smith, for the record. I like him sometimes and sometimes I want to punch him in the ***.

Not so coincidently, I feel the exact same way about Quincey.

[kipwinger 8,518]

Ummm until the last 10 game stretch Quincey hasn't been very good at all defensively... Quincey is an older and more developed player than Smith so of course he may make less mistakes but the difference is Quincey makes boneheaded mistakes DESPITE being in the league for a long time and hasn't learned from them. Smith is still raw and hasn't had all the learning experiences yet. So if you want to go and rip on smith for his shortcomings then you better start ripping on tatar for all his turnovers by trying to do too much with the puck and rip on DD for his low point totals which are comparable with Smith's despite getting PP time. So just rip on ALL the rookies for playing like rookies and say players that have been in the league longer are better - that way you will be consistent.

Yeah the difference is that most rookies do at least one thing pretty well. Tatar scores, Lashoff kills penalties, and Dekeyser is good defensively (and better offensively than Smith too). Smith's an offensive d-man who doesn't score...or play defense. People don't expect Tatar to be great defensively, people DO expect Smith to be able to pass and play offense and he's not good at that.

As noted above, he starts in the offensive zone more than any of our other defenseman and still only barely scores more than Quincey who starts in the d-zone more than any of our defensemen.

Keep making excuses for Brendan, you're only proving my point. The stats don't lie. He's not very good. And the more you try to make it seem so, the more you show that you're going to defend him no matter what the truth is.

Here's a thought, why don't you tell me all the ways that Smith is better than Quincey, or Dekeyser, or Lashoff...and I'll post links to tell you how wrong you are. Or I could just do it for you...

Smith's gritty: Lashoff and Quincey have more hits and blocked shots.

Smith's Offensive: Quincey has more goals, and Dekeyser has more points.

Smith's safer: Nope. leads the defense in turnovers.

Smith's versatile: Nope, doesn't play any special teams.

Smith only does one thing better than the rest of our defense...turn the puck over. Everybody else has at least one thing over him. But keep telling me how good he is and how bad they suck.

True. But Quincey’s got waaaaaay more NHL games under his belt. Smith’s at the age roughly that Quincey was when they waved him the first time. Mind you that D group was tougher to crack than this one.

I’m neither pro or anti Smith, for the record. I like him sometimes and sometimes I want to punch him in the ***.

Not so coincidently, I feel the exact same way about Quincey.

Dekeyser and Lashoff are both rookies, why don't they suck as bad as Smith defensively if it's merely a product of being young? Lashoff's better defensively, and Dekeyser is better offensively AND defensively (while playing fewer games). Being young's not an excuse. Smith is young AND bad (right now).

Edited March 22, 2014 by kipwinger

[dirtydangles 1,328]

Yeah the difference is that most rookies do at least one thing pretty well. Tatar scores, Lashoff kills penalties, and Dekeyser is good defensively. Smith's an offensive d-man who doesn't score...or play defense. People don't expect Tatar to be great defensively, people DO expect Smith to be able to pass and play offense and he's not good at that.

As noted above, he starts in the offensive zone more than any of our other defenseman and still only barely scores more than Quincey who starts in the d-zone more than any of our defensemen.

Keep making excuses for Brendan, you're only proving my point. The stats don't lie. He's not very good. And the more you try to make it seem so, the more you show that you're going to defend him no matter what the truth is.

Here's a thought, why don't you tell me all the ways that Smith is better than Quincey, or Dekeyser, or Lashoff...and I'll post links to tell you how wrong you are. Or I could just do it for you...

Smith's gritty: Lashoff and Quincey have more hits and blocked shots.

Smith's Offensive: Quincey has more goals, and Dekeyser has more points.

Smith's safer: Nope. leads the defense in turnovers.

Smith's versatile: Nope, doesn't play any special teams.

Smith only does one thing better than the rest of our defense...turn the puck over. Everybody else has at least one thing over him. But keep telling me how good he is and how bad they suck.

Dekeyser and Lashoff are both rookies, why don't they suck as bad as Smith defensively if it's merely a product of being young? Lashoff's better defensively, and Dekeyser is better offensively AND defensively (while playing fewer games). Being young's not an excuse. Smith is young AND bad (right now).

You can stick to your stats - I'll watch the on-ice product. Smith has outstanding passing and you say he doesn't - the guy goes tape to tape on the majority of them - Quincey's passing is below average at best. Smith is a great skater and last night Mickey was saying how he can keep up with Crosby and specifically showed the play where Smith smothered Crosby entering the zone and came out in control with the puck. Smith shows spark and instinct in jumping into the play offensively that only Kronner shows on this team (this is a thing you see on the ice rather than in the stats sheet). Another thing Smith does better than others is being physical and initiating contact - he is one the best of our D at reversing a hit and staying steady along the boards under contact (I remember Smith reversing a hit on Boby Ryan in the playoffs among others). I'm not saying Smith is amazing (he could be some day) - but your attitude towards s***ting on him completely is unfounded - especially now when he is playing much better. Smith does do many things well and you have to give him credit for them even if it isn't in the goals column or his +/-.

Oh and if you are throwing around stats and my previous paragraph meant nothing to you - Smith 15pts -3, Quincey 12 pts -3 so NO quincey is not better offensively by your statistical standards - goal scoring isn't the only factor. The -3 statistic (even though I don't really care for stats but you do) is the same as Quincey's showing they are equal in terms of being on the ice for bad and good events. Smith outscores Quincey with less ice time this season. The lame thing about stats is you can pick and choose which ones help your personal vendetta and ignore the rest - that is why I generally dislike them. Players give you a "feel" when you watch them every night and Smith has been sending good vibes lately (I know its not objective but if you watch enough games you can see players trend up and down). I trust that much more than the stats sheet and I think most people have the same feeling that Smith has done well lately. I come to threads like this right after the game - when the feeling is still fresh - and post about how I feel a player did - many others do too. Sure - if I want to know how a random player has been doing on another team that I don't watch, then yes, I have a quick look at the stats - but it doesn't really compare to watching that player. Hell - you'd think Helm is useless by looking at his stats and that we should have Hudler instead.

And to address your point about being good at one thing - I'd rather have the majority of my players be average at everything than outstanding in one category while being terrible in another. Lashoff seems better on D because he never commits to making anything happen in the offensive zone so he is always positioned to succeed defensively - its no that hard to figure that out. DD is a more polished player than smith right now - there is no way around that. Smith is not bad - he is developing and learning to use his tools.

[kipwinger 8,518]

Jesus you don't pay attention at all. Smith CAN'T have outstanding passing skills if he leads the defense in turnovers...which he does. Also, he has three more points than Quincey but leads the defense in offensive zone starts, Quincey has the lowest number of those (meaning Quincey has to go 200 feet to score and Smith has to go 75). It makes a difference. Finally, Lashoff is better defensively because not only does he lead Smith in categories related to defense (hits, blocks), but he also plays on the PK, which is entirely about defense.

How convenient that you "don't care about stats" when EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM defy the argument you're trying to make. Smith's not very good, and if you believe the hype (despite all the evidence to the contrary) then I don't know what to tell you.

It's not "picking and choosing" when EVERY stat says Quincey is better. Seriously, the only stats that favor Smith are assists (Smith has three more) and penalies (Smith have five less). Literally EVERY other stat favors Quincey. I'm not picking and choosing s***.

Edited March 22, 2014 by kipwinger

[Guest DeGraa55]

Kip is most likely the guy that thinks Franzen>hossa to.

No point in arguing with him. His OPINION won't be changed.

[rick zombo 3,739]

WTF are we arguing about here?

Quincey vs Smith?

We're doing this?

[marcaractac 3,962]

Jesus you don't pay attention at all. Smith CAN'T have outstanding passing skills if he leads the defense in turnovers...which he does. Also, he has three more points than Quincey but leads the defense in offensive zone starts, Quincey has the lowest number of those (meaning Quincey has to go 200 feet to score and Smith has to go 75). It makes a difference. Finally, Lashoff is better defensively because not only does he lead Smith in categories related to defense (hits, blocks), but he also plays on the PK, which is entirely about defense.

How convenient that you "don't care about stats" when EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM defy the argument you're trying to make. Smith's not very good, and if you believe the hype (despite all the evidence to the contrary) then I don't know what to tell you.

It's not "picking and choosing" when EVERY stat says Quincey is better. Seriously, the only stats that favor Smith are assists (Smith has three more) and penalies (Smith have five less). Literally EVERY other stat favors Quincey. I'm not picking and choosing s***.

Quincey is also getting paid a lot more money, so he damn well be better. Doesn't change the fact he is no where near as good as what he is getting paid. Especially for a guy who has been in the league for a while.

Of course Smith is gonna be cut some slack. He has played what, 100 games in the NHL? He has also shown improvement. Smith is gonna continue to get better, and will become a very important part of this team. Quincey is as good as he is ever gonna be, and very likely won't be back on this team next season.

Smith's turnovers will come down as he gets more experience, and makes adjustments to his game. With Quincey, what you see is what you get. He will never change.

If you wanna stick up for Quincey, go ahead. I have stuck up for him myself at points during this season. I also don't dislike him like a lot of people here do. But people stick up for Smith because he has a future with this team, and Quincey doesn't. I can understand that. Smith got his share of s*** early this season. But as long as he can continue to show improvement (because he has shown a lot!), of course people will stick up for him. Defensemen with his upside and his skating ability does not grow on trees. Give it a couple years and I'd put money on the fact he'll be more of a dman than Quincey could ever dream of being.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Smith is far better offensively. He also tries to push the play more which is where the turnovers come from, not inaccurate passes.

[newfy 695]

Karlsson, Subban and Doughty are the top 3 D in the league for give aways. Are you sure you want to use that stat as proof that a guy isnt a good passer? More often than not these are the guys who push the play and are actually moving the puck. Smith definitely pushes the pace and anyone who thinks he doesnt is a stat watcher.

As for some other stuff. We're going to use stats to say Dekeyser is better offensively? Dekeyser gets PP time and still barely outscores Smith. Dekeyser has an OK shot but that spot/the spot Kindl had all year should be Smiths. The way he passes and the instincts he has to cut back door and get sneaky in the offensive zone is only shown by Kronwall on this team. Hes getting tough love from babcock but its working and his game is coming along really nicely. I would wager next year if he keeps this up he will be on the PP and we'll see a solid spike in production

[Guest DeGraa55]

Smith on the PP AND now he is tied with the great Quincey for goals.

[kipwinger 8,518]

Smith on the PP AND now he is tied with the great Quincey for goals.

I'm not sure you're making the point you think you're making. If Quincey doesn't get PP time, and he's terrible (as you're not so subtly insinuating), and Smith needed powerplay time to catch Quincey, then what does that say about Smith?

Why don't we just say it was a good goal and leave it at that. I'd hate to have to suffer through another of your ham-handed attempts at being clever.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

Cmon kip - even you have to admit Smith was great tonight... building on previous games like I think he has been doing lately. Showed up on the scoresheet tonight for you too.

[Nevermind 363]

Yeah, he's actually looked much better since that perfect pass to Ryan Smyth.

But to keep the nitpickers happy...why the hell did he kick the puck loose in the dying seconds? It could have given Minny a scoring chance at the very end there.

[newfy 695]

Shouldve had 3 points tonight

[dirtydangles 1,328]

Yeah, he's actually looked much better since that perfect pass to Ryan Smyth.

But to keep the nitpickers happy...why the hell did he kick the puck loose in the dying seconds? It could have given Minny a scoring chance at the very end there.

He killed like 10 seconds before that with the refs yelling to move the puck so I wasn't too upset. Shoulda had 2 goals tonight with the assist if the refs didn't go fully mental tonight.

[Dominator2005 558]

Smith is better fit with Kronwall than "E".