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#21 kipwinger

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 01:33 PM

 

It's really hard to say that they would be better with Datsyuk or Zetterberg, my point being that since we don't have access to a world where Z and D were healthy, it's impossible to say that the team would be in a better position or not.

 

That's like saying it's impossible to say whether life without one of your arms would be good or bad because it hasn't happened.  Sure, but you can speculate with a pretty high degree of logical validity.  Datsyuk and Zetterberg are two of the best players in the world.  It's always better to have them than not have them...just like both your arms.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#22 DickieDunn

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 01:36 PM

 

It's really hard to say that they would be better with Datsyuk or Zetterberg, my point being that since we don't have access to a world where Z and D were healthy, it's impossible to say that the team would be in a better position or not.

 

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#23 Bully76

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 01:55 PM

Great idea for a thread, Dickie. I've been as pessimistic about our playoff hopes as many on this forum, but the negativity was really starting to bum me out. This is refreshing - and astute.


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#24 marcaractac

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 03:14 PM

I'll say this, for me it's not a matter of thinking that the team is sinking or that there aren't (some) reasonable excuses for (some) of the loses.  I agree, the injuries tore this team up all year.  BUT we're in every game we lose, tied in a lot of games we lose, and leading in almost a third of the games we lose.  When you're leading by two goals going into the third you need to win more often then we do.  It would be one thing if, because of injuries, we rarely got leads in game.  It's another thing entirely to have leads so often and blow them.  And you can't blame that all on injuries.

 

But you can blame that on having a lot of inexperience in the lineup. Opponents down by a goal or 2 and turn things up a notch or two? It will lead to rookies making mistakes. Not having guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg around in these situations hurt. But going forward, this team will be a lot better off for it. Even our team defense will be a lot better when you have world class players like Pasha and Hank helping out.



#25 kipwinger

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 03:25 PM

 

But you can blame that on having a lot of inexperience in the lineup. Opponents down by a goal or 2 and turn things up a notch or two? It will lead to rookies making mistakes. Not having guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg around in these situations hurt. But going forward, this team will be a lot better off for it. Even our team defense will be a lot better when you have world class players like Pasha and Hank helping out.

 

I definitely agree with this 100%.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#26 DickieDunn

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 05:04 PM

Great idea for a thread, Dickie. I've been as pessimistic about our playoff hopes as many on this forum, but the negativity was really starting to bum me out. This is refreshing - and astute.

I just think it helps to see everything that happened to this team put down together so people can see why the team is barely hanging onto the last playoff spot. I've seen a lot of comments at various places about how far the team has fallen and the management and coaches are idiots, the team us a disaster, etc. like this was the team they wanted to have all year.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#27 sputman

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 05:10 PM

 

I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty proud of what this team has accomplished, even if it's not what past teams have been able to do.

 

Me too. You can't be mad at them, or Ken Holland, or Mike Babcock. It doesn't matter who was on this team this year, they would have sprained, twisted, or imploded some limb or limbs without reason whatsoever. The fact that our injury list is an all star team most years should make people shake their head in amazement that they're still in playoff discussions. 


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#28 GMRwings1983

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 06:31 PM

After 73 games:

 

Datsyuk has played 39 games.

Zetterberg has played 45 games.

Both have been out at the same time for a big chunk of time.

Every player projected to be even a semi-regular center has missed at least 12 games, Andersson is the only one who has played more than 45.

Miller, Quincey, and Kronwall are the only players to have played 70 or more games.

Tatar and Lashoff, along with the three above, are the only players to have missed fewer than 10 games.

Nyquist and Tatar are the two leading goal scorers.

They have dressed 30 skaters and have had 11 rookies dress.

 

If you had been told those facts at the beginning of the year, haw many games out of the playoffs would you think they'd be right now?  I would have figured close to the bottom of the division.  Instead, if the season ended today they would be in the playoffs.

 

I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty proud of what this team has accomplished, even if it's not what past teams have been able to do.

 

If you told me before the offseason that Dan Cleary, Todd Bertuzzi and Mikael Samuelsson would play a combined total of 126 games for this team this season, I would have flat out told you "We're not making the playoffs"


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#29 loutswings

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 06:50 PM

I can say I feel a lot better about our future. Is it 100% where we need to be? Not yet but a couple added pieces to this team we can be contenders in the near future. Not many people talk too much about how good the Wings were in the early 90's. Young core that was starting to jell and one trade for Shanny put this organization over the top for years. I would say 4 guys that are completely hands off for trades are Nyquist, Tatar, Dekeyser, and Jurco. 



#30 GMRwings1983

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 06:56 PM

What this team needs is accountability.

 

You've got an owner who doesn't care and a GM and coach that will not get fired.  We frequently talk about replacements for Holland and Babcock, but we all know neither one will be gone unless they want to be gone.  That's not a good thing when people in power have no accountability to anyone above.

 

Also, we have too many players with NTC's.  Those guys also have no accountability, since they can only be moved with their permission.  How can a team have so many NTC's?  It's stupid.  

 

Then you have players like Cleary, Bert and Sammy who should have not been brought back this season or even last season, yet are still on the team.  What have these guys done lately to have been given a spot on the team at all?

 

The franchise just needs top to bottom accountability.  Instead, you have an organization of people with too much job security.  


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#31 rick zombo

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 07:05 PM

What this team needs is accountability.
 
You've got an owner who doesn't care and a GM and coach that will not get fired.  We frequently talk about replacements for Holland and Babcock, but we all know neither one will be gone unless they want to be gone.  That's not a good thing when people in power have no accountability to anyone above.
 
Also, we have too many players with NTC's.  Those guys also have no accountability, since they can only be moved with their permission.  How can a team have so many NTC's?  It's stupid.  
 
Then you have players like Cleary, Bert and Sammy who should have not been brought back this season or even last season, yet are still on the team.  What have these guys done lately to have been given a spot on the team at all?
 
The franchise just needs top to bottom accountability.  Instead, you have an organization of people with too much job security.  


Pretty much yep.

Illitch is half-alive right now and basically only seems to care about seeing the Tigers win a world series. Which is fair enough.

On the + side, you'd have to think they're trying to time it so the Wings are truly back on the up-swing when the new arena is ready.
"In Detroit, every day is a good day to win"

#32 Playmaker

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 07:19 PM

Mike Ilitch hasn't run the day to day operations of the Wings or the Tigers for many years.  It's so ridiculous to say "He doesn't care about the Wings".  Yeah, he didn't offer a couple hundred million to try and get Parise and Suter, did he?  No, he doesn't care about the Wings. Chris Ilitch spends money on the Tigers because he CAN.  There's no cap to worry about.  He did the same with the Wings when he could.  The Bertuzzi/Sammy/Cleary situations have been beaten to death, and two of them haven't seen the ice in forever, yet it still doesn't keep people from complaining about it.

 

That the Wings have this much young talent without any high draft picks in forever is remarkable and Holland should be commended for that.   If they do make the playoffs after all they've been through this season and are able to rebuild on the fly yet again and be competitive, Holland should never be criticized again.



#33 joshy207

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 07:41 PM

That's good writin', Dickie, you really captured the spirit of the thing.

 

The biggest problem with this team the last 2 years is inconsistency.  A lot of that has been brought on because of the injuries and the resulting revolving-door lineup.  But even when the team was mostly healthy, it was inconsistent.  There's been a drop-off in talent since the 07-09 era, most noticeably on the blue line and in the secondary scoring department.  The team's best players in those years are still its best players today, which says a lot about 13 and 40, but not much for the rest of the team.  Nobody has stepped up to take over for our aging superstars.  We may be seeing the beginning of that process though, with Nyquist and Tatar... and on defense, obviously nobody can "replace" Lidstrom, but nobody is even CLOSE to taking over.

 

GMRwings, you also have some strong points, many of which I agree with.  While it's nice to have loyalty, continuity, etc., that breeds complacency, and I think management and some of the veterans have become very complacent.  I'll leave Babcock out of that because he has evolved during his time here, and he seems to have seen the light this year and has stopped relying on his pet players like Cleary while giving more trust and responsibility to younger players who, without the injuries, might not even be in the NHL.  In past years, playoff failures resulted in a "we'll get them next year" attitude from management, and underachieving players were not held accountable.  Everything stayed the same, no real changes were made.  Nobody was shipped out of town to freshen things up and send the remaining players a little wake-up.  NTC or not, Holland never trades anyone significant.  Not since SLAVA KOZLOV IN 2001.

 

However, the future looks pretty bright... as long as Holland finally sees that same light and stops bringing in or retaining stopgap veterans and gives his prospects an honest chance to make the team out of training camp or during the season.  Based on his comments about Mantha, he could be on that path.  (I don't have a link handy, but he said Mantha will play in 5-6 preseason games and have a shot to make the Wings next fall.)  The true test will come after the season, when he has to let go of the dead-weight vets, decide on his waiver-eligible RFAs, and explore the UFA and trade markets.

 

Maybe, just maybe, the days of roster overbuilding and prospect overripening are gone, and proud veterans aren't waived because the team can't find a trade partner, and energetic young players are expected to learn how to play the NHL game at the AHL level.  If the performances of Nyquist, Tatar, Andersson, Lashoff, and DeKeyser didn't prove that last year, throw in Jurco, Sheahan, Glendening, and the cups of coffee this year, and the evidence is pretty strong... give the kids a chance.



#34 Jericho613

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 11:43 PM

Wings will be fine and totally make the playoffs. With that said though, when we do make the playoffs, during the off season will the Wings bring back the dead weight free agents. That's  what scares me. The its not broke so we don't need to fix it mentality. Let the dead weight go, fix the Defense, let the kids play and its a scary team next year.



#35 Buppy

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 12:05 AM

...

 

Maybe, just maybe, the days of roster overbuilding and prospect overripening are gone, and proud veterans aren't waived because the team can't find a trade partner, and energetic young players are expected to learn how to play the NHL game at the AHL level.  If the performances of Nyquist, Tatar, Andersson, Lashoff, and DeKeyser didn't prove that last year, throw in Jurco, Sheahan, Glendening, and the cups of coffee this year, and the evidence is pretty strong... give the kids a chance.

At the risk of going too far off-topic, I think we need to keep this "kid" thing in perspective. It's not like these kids are fresh-from-the-draft teenagers. They're 22, 23, 24; most with multiple years in the minors to mature. If the evidence of anything is pretty strong, it's that "over-ripening" works.

 

And it's not like we've ever been particularly averse to giving young players an opportunity, even when they've had a year or more left of waiver exemption. There's a fair-sized list going back to the 90s when we were just getting good, through Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Fischer in the early 2000s, then Filppula and Hudler, followed by Helm, and you could even count Brunner last year. The only thing noteworthy about the current youth injection is the number of good prospects we've accumulated in recent years. And while that quantity is definitely a good thing, it also means there just isn't room to give all the kids a chance. 



#36 saven

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 12:06 AM

I can't think of anyone here who would have read the words goose leads team in goal,s Tatar 2nd , and thought yup we still have a legit chance at the playoffs. The injuries we have had have shown us how good theses young players are but let's not kids ourselfs ( pun intended ) we win at least 3/4 more games since the break with z and dats playing. I hate to stir this pot but we also prob don't make the trade for leggy.
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#37 Shinzaki

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 01:14 AM

Jurco, Sheahan, Nyquist and Tatar have all been thrown into the mix on the top two lines and all of them have been productive.   Throw in Glendening who's really hitting his stride as an Avery type ****** on the checking unit and Kenny and Babs are 5 for 5 in getting production out of the Griffins.   That's a stunning development...especially since the consensus last year was that the team lacked prospects first line potential.

 

Now...if we can get similar results out of Oullet, Sproul, Jensen, Backman and Marchenko on defense...the future looks really bright.  And that's not even taking Mantha, Pulkinnen, Athanasiou or any of the other young guys in the system into consideration.

 

The injuries forced us into a rebuilding year that may still turn out to be a success.    You go ahead and fire Holland and/or Babcock.  They'll be unemployed for about five minutes.


Edited by Shinzaki, 29 March 2014 - 01:18 AM.


#38 loutswings

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 06:24 AM

Mike Ilitch hasn't run the day to day operations of the Wings or the Tigers for many years.  It's so ridiculous to say "He doesn't care about the Wings".  Yeah, he didn't offer a couple hundred million to try and get Parise and Suter, did he?  No, he doesn't care about the Wings. Chris Ilitch spends money on the Tigers because he CAN.  There's no cap to worry about.  He did the same with the Wings when he could.  The Bertuzzi/Sammy/Cleary situations have been beaten to death, and two of them haven't seen the ice in forever, yet it still doesn't keep people from complaining about it.

 

That the Wings have this much young talent without any high draft picks in forever is remarkable and Holland should be commended for that.   If they do make the playoffs after all they've been through this season and are able to rebuild on the fly yet again and be competitive, Holland should never be criticized again.

I think this is spot on. Ilitch is trying to do a lot for the city and this arena project. From my understanding him and Dan Gilbert are just buying up plots of land in the Downtown area. Ilitch used the Red Wings to really get the ball moving on everything. 







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