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Ovechkin and ES


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#41 Playmaker

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 01:46 PM

I don't know what you're referring to as a "possession" team or how that refers to the forwards being defensive minded.  What I'm referring to is "back in the day" guys like Guy Carboneau, Rick Meagher, Shawn Burr for the Wings, they were considered defensive forwards.  That's why they have the Selke Trophy, because scorers didn't traditionally kill penalties or backcheck against the other teams top forwards.  I don't recall it changing every few years.  Since the days of Fedorov and Yzerman, most forwards are expected to play at least somewhat of a decent defensive game and sacrifice the scoring numbers to do so.  I think that's why you don't see guys putting up points like they used to.


Edited by Playmaker, 02 April 2014 - 04:57 PM.


#42 toby91_ca

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 01:53 PM

What it really comes down to is, what does the coaching staff want from him. Do you want to take a 50 goal scorer and turn him into a 30 goal guy and improve his D? Tough one to answer. Most teams are looking for more O. Scoring in the NHL is down and trending further south.

I know a lot of people have the view that x player sacrifices offense by playing better D, but I really think that is a myth.

 

Playing great D should give you more options on offsensive.  Getting the puck back quicker gives you greater possession time.  If you are not chipping in on D, your teams will spend more time in your own end, which is very tough to score from.



#43 wingedominance13

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 02:15 PM

I know a lot of people have the view that x player sacrifices offense by playing better D, but I really think that is a myth.

 

Playing great D should give you more options on offsensive.  Getting the puck back quicker gives you greater possession time.  If you are not chipping in on D, your teams will spend more time in your own end, which is very tough to score from.

 100% agree. If Ovi backchecked and threw his weight around in the D zone it would create more O zone time for his team. It might sacrifice a few breakaways but in general by playing harder D he will have more offensive zone time.



#44 Playmaker

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 02:27 PM

Not necessarily.  If the center is deep in his own zone tying up a guy in front of the net, it takes a lot more out of a guy than one who is floating at the red line looking for a breakaway.



#45 Son of a Wing

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 02:41 PM

 

“Ovi quit on the play coming back,” Coach Adam Oates said. Whitney “forced [the play] down the ice and just goes to show you you’ve got to hustle the entire time, the whole entire time.”

 

It's not even about being a complete 2-way player.  It's about just giving a damn...


Check out the video in the link on my previous post from the 24sec mark on.  It's just a joke when your team is fighting for a playoff spot.


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#46 kipwinger

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 03:17 PM

I'll say this about the whole "sacrificing offense for defense" thing.  Nobody is asking Ovie to be a defensive stalwart.  But Stamkos has shown that you can score a TON of goals and still at least try on defense.  Is he a defensive stud?  No.  But he makes an effort.  Ovie doesn't....

 

BUT, Ovie is hardly the only scorer in the league who doesn't really try on defense so it's a bit disingenuous to single him out without saying the same thing about a ton of other guys (past and present). 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

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#47 Dabura

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 03:22 PM

That goal...oh man. lol.


Then again...

 

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#48 marcaractac

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 03:38 PM

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=448095



#49 toby91_ca

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 04:05 PM

I'll say this about the whole "sacrificing offense for defense" thing.  Nobody is asking Ovie to be a defensive stalwart.  But Stamkos has shown that you can score a TON of goals and still at least try on defense.  Is he a defensive stud?  No.  But he makes an effort.  Ovie doesn't....

 

BUT, Ovie is hardly the only scorer in the league who doesn't really try on defense so it's a bit disingenuous to single him out without saying the same thing about a ton of other guys (past and present). 

The difference is that Stamkos is a centre and Ovechkin is not.  I don't give Ovechkin a really hard time on lack of defense as not as much responsibility is placed on wingers.  This is also why I always see centres as being more valuable and more important than wingers. 



#50 Playmaker

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 04:56 PM

I think Ovie is singled out because, you basically really have to suck defensively to lead the league in goals and lead in minus.  Yeah, stats can be misleading, but in this case?  It seems indicative of his play.



#51 marcaractac

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 05:51 PM

I think Ovie is singled out because, you basically really have to suck defensively to lead the league in goals and lead in minus.  Yeah, stats can be misleading, but in this case?  It seems indicative of his play.

 

Exactly. I'd never expect him to become a dominant 2 way forward. But at some point you have to at least make an effort on the back check. That isn't a way of sacrificing offense or changing how he plays, it would be a case of simply giving 100% and giving a damn.



#52 Richdg

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:36 PM

Playmaker, his line mate Backstrom is considered a good defensive C and is -19, whlebeing on the ice for all of Ovie's goals. In this case yes the +/- is deciving because it is their BL that sucks.

 

yes being a great defensive forward does hurt your offensive numbers. Always has. Pick any superstar you want to. They come in as great offensive players, rack up serious numbers. Then as they mature they start playing D more and their O numbers drop. Yes there are always exceptions to every rule.



#53 toby91_ca

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:46 PM

 

yes being a great defensive forward does hurt your offensive numbers. Always has. Pick any superstar you want to. They come in as great offensive players, rack up serious numbers. Then as they mature they start playing D more and their O numbers drop. Yes there are always exceptions to every rule.

Not so sure about that.  Not sure what superstars you are thinking about.  I think more often than not, O numbers drop due to normal aging process, change in overall league scoring, etc. 



#54 sibiriak

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 09:01 PM

Not so sure about that.  Not sure what superstars you are thinking about.  I think more often than not, O numbers drop due to normal aging process, change in overall league scoring, etc. 

Come on, if you play forward, you can either play safe, not go for 40-60 pucks, be in front of your check always, or you can take more chances. In the former case, your +/- will be better, but your offense will suffer. In the latter case, your scoring will be higher, but your +/- will suffer even more. The reason that risky defensive play hurts the +/- more than helps it, is that only in a small minority of scoring chances the puck actually goes in. So if you screw up defensively by cherry picking or trying for a low percentage interception, you may get a scoring chance say 10% of the time, and you will score on 5% of those, your scoring goes up 0.5%. But 90% of the time your screw up results in a scoring chance against, and if the opposition scores on 5% of them, your +/- goes down by 4.5%. That is not intended as a mathematical proof but rather as an illustration of my point.

Having said that, OV's play on that goal was revolting. I hate playing pick-up hockey because a lot of people play like that.



#55 GoOzzieGo

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 06:42 PM

http://espn.go.com/v...egoryid=2459791

 

This guy has turned into a joke.



#56 Richdg

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 07:52 PM

Just thinking of other guys that were known to be lazy at times, in their end.... Hull, Federov, Modano, Mario, Jagr, Selanne, Bure, Yzerman for the first 10 years of his career, Hossa, etc etc..... Most of those guys didn't learn to play D or on every shift until later in their careers.

 

Now I do wonder how many on here complaining about ovie efforts defend Franzen? How many defended Federov? How many would change their tune if ovie was here?

 

BTW, I hope Oates pisses him off and he demands a trade. A line of Z-Datsyuk-Ovie would be the best in the NHL, and it wouldn't even be close!



#57 kipwinger

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:52 PM

Just thinking of other guys that were known to be lazy at times, in their end.... Hull, Federov, Modano, Mario, Jagr, Selanne, Bure, Yzerman for the first 10 years of his career, Hossa, etc etc..... Most of those guys didn't learn to play D or on every shift until later in their careers.

 

Now I do wonder how many on here complaining about ovie efforts defend Franzen? How many defended Federov? How many would change their tune if ovie was here?

 

BTW, I hope Oates pisses him off and he demands a trade. A line of Z-Datsyuk-Ovie would be the best in the NHL, and it wouldn't even be close!

 

When you talk about Fedorov are you talking about the two time Selke Trophy winning Sergei Fedorov?  The one who learned to play hockey in the Soviet Red Army system which essentially created the "two way forward"?  That Sergei Fedorov?


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#58 toby91_ca

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:00 AM

 

When you talk about Fedorov are you talking about the two time Selke Trophy winning Sergei Fedorov?  The one who learned to play hockey in the Soviet Red Army system which essentially created the "two way forward"?  That Sergei Fedorov?

That caught my eye as well.  He was almost the best two-way player in the league from his first game.



#59 Richdg

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:25 AM

 

When you talk about Fedorov are you talking about the two time Selke Trophy winning Sergei Fedorov?  The one who learned to play hockey in the Soviet Red Army system which essentially created the "two way forward"?  That Sergei Fedorov?

Yes that Federov. The one that disappeared for weeks at a time, showed no heart in 25% of the games he played. The guy that might have been the second most talented hockey player in terms of natural talent all time, that pouted around and didn't care much of the time. Yes that Fedorov. The guy that we brought Liranov in to motivate, that Fedorov. It is amazing how soon people forget who and what he was and the hockey worlds take on him.



#60 Opie

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:47 AM

Yes that Federov. The one that disappeared for weeks at a time, showed no heart in 25% of the games he played. The guy that might have been the second most talented hockey player in terms of natural talent all time, that pouted around and didn't care much of the time. Yes that Fedorov. The guy that we brought Liranov in to motivate, that Fedorov. It is amazing how soon people forget who and what he was and the hockey worlds take on him.

 

As some one who dogs Feds for his lack of interest, there is no way you can group him in with the likes of Ovie and Hull.


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