A plea to Holland.

[Dabura 12,207]

I'm happy we lost last night and in pathetic fashion. The team needed a kick in the collective balls. You can't play for five minutes and expect to win. Lesson learned and edge regained, I hope.

As for this topic...putting a call-up on the fourth line is different than putting one on the third pairing. Most teams are really pushing right now, which is why Kindl and Lashoff and Smith are being exposed the way they are. You throw Sproul into the fire right now and he'll likely be eaten alive. Probably ditto for Almqvist, though I have more faith in him than some do. Ouellet might be the safest choice, but, realistically, he's not gonna be that much better than Kindl or Lashoff. Basically, I'd only go this route if we've secured a playoff spot. Unfortunately, that's still very much up in the air.

I'd try simply limiting their ice, giving them only offensive zone starts, maybe doing some double-shifting so they get to play with Kronwall or DeKeyser. Then I'd trade Kindl in the summer. Lashoff probably has zero trade value, and he's the only big mean defensive defenseman we have, so I'd probably keep him around, though not necessarily on the big club.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Dabura

[LeftWinger 4,949]

said it before and I'll say it again. We need two veteran defensemen to bridge this team before Ouellet and Sproul are ready in two years. Dump Kindl, go ahead a waive Lashoff and don't even let Quincey call you this summer.

Sign any two of Morris, Mitchell, Boyle, Orpik or Weaver. Bring up Marchenko to be #7.

[Dabura 12,207]

What's up with Boyle? Is he testing the waters this summer?

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Would take Markov before Orpik and Weaver.

[LeftWinger 4,949]

ya, Markov too. My point being we need that solid vet defenders for two to three years while our young guns get their feet wet.

Ryan Miller also says he is testing the waters in July. Holland should throw his wad at him, then get rid of Jimmy. I know Jimmy will do better with better D in front of him, but you only get this one shot at that Elite goalie we sure could use. And I would be willing to bet he would love to come home and play with his brother. He would also have to be intrigued by the potential our young kids are showing. Who wouldn't want to be part of this team going forward? When the Wild miss the playoffs, Suter is going to ***** slap his wife for talking him out of signing in Detroit.

Edited April 6, 2014 by LeftWinger

[wings87 1,290]

I'm happy we lost last night and in pathetic fashion. The team needed a kick in the collective balls. You can't play for five minutes and expect to win. Lesson learned and edge regained, I hope.

As for this topic...putting a call-up on the fourth line is different than putting one on the third pairing. Most teams are really pushing right now, which is why Kindl and Lashoff and Smith are being exposed the way they are. You throw Sproul into the fire right now and he'll likely be eaten alive. Probably ditto for Almqvist, though I have more faith in him than some do. Ouellet might be the safest choice, but, realistically, he's not gonna be that much better than Kindl or Lashoff. Basically, I'd only go this route if we've secured a playoff spot. Unfortunately, that's still very much up in the air.

I'd try simply limiting their ice, giving them only offensive zone starts, maybe doing some double-shifting so they get to play with Kronwall or DeKeyser. Then I'd trade Kindl in the summer. Lashoff probably has zero trade value, and he's the only big mean defensive defenseman we have, so I'd probably keep him around, though not necessarily on the big club.

I get what your saying, but here's where we disagree. Jurco and Sheahan haven't been guys that have been thrown onto the 4th line, these guys have been the teams 2nd line and have played tremendously; and I doubt very many people thought they were ready. This of course doesn't mean that the defensemen that could be brought up would have the same impact- but with all the injuries and Kindl and Lashoff struggling- why not bring in one and try? I think Nick and DD should play more down the stretch, but if Babs limits the 3rd pairings time too much; DD and Nick would have to play more and that might cause their play to suffer.

There are no easy answers, but Lashoff and Kindl can't be on the ice together. If Holland isn't interested in bring up players from the AHL at the very least Babs needs to pair Lashoff and Kindl with Quincey and DD. Yes. I know that Quincey/Kindl or Quincey/Lashoff might be just as scary, but we can't leave that 3rd pairing the way it is now.

Edited April 6, 2014 by wings87

[LeftWinger 4,949]

How much better would this team be with Morris, Boyle, Marchenko and Miller over Kindl, Quincey, Lashoff and Howard? We have a chance this summer to make those exact changes...

[Dabura 12,207]

I get what your saying, but here's where we disagree. Jurco and Sheahan haven't been guys that have been thrown onto the 4th line, these guys have been the teams 2nd line and have played tremendously; and I doubt very many people thought they were ready. This of course doesn't mean that the defensemen that could be brought up would have the same impact- but with all the injuries and Kindl and Lashoff struggling- why not bring in one and try? I think Nick and DD should play more down the stretch, but if Babs limits the 3rd pairings time too much; DD and Nick would have to play more and that might cause their play to suffer.

There are no easy answers, but Lashoff and Kindl can't be on the ice together. If Holland isn't interested in bring up players from the AHL at the very least Babs needs to pair Lashoff and Kindl with Quincey and DD. Yes. I know that Quincey/Kindl or Quincey/Lashoff might be just as scary, but we can't leave that 3rd pairing the way it is now.

If Kindl and Lashoff were singlehandedly blowing games every night, I'd be all for bringing up Ouellet. But, truth is, they've actually been pretty ok. I mean, think about it. Haven't we been winning? Haven't we beaten the likes of the Penguins and Bruins? Isn't it with Kindl and Lashoff playing pretty big minutes that we've surged back into the playoff picture? Sure, they cost us every night, but that's what third pairings do. They suck. They make you pull your hair out. They take ten years off your life. That Max Pacioretty terrorizes them one night in Montreal doesn't necessarily mean anything has gone terribly wrong. (The Habs have scored 12 goals in two games.)

The real issue is our top four. The biggest knock against Kronwall is that he's not what we need and expect him to be, which is an undisputed Norris candidate who can play 90 minutes a night and go +147 on the season. Ericsson's the next best thing, and he's out for the rest of forever. DeKeyser's a rookie. Quincey is Quincey. Smith is Smith. All of which means Kindl and Lashoff need to do some heavy lifting. Fortunately, they've mostly gotten the job done, showing Babs that he doesn't have to break in a kid with no NHL experience with two weeks to go in the regular season and our postseason streak hanging in the balance.

[wings_fanatic 677]

You sir are wrong. Kindl is that awful as we're all saying. Remember in the Boston game kindl was skating the puck out of our zone and he had all the time in the world but he skated right into a Boston player who then stole the puck and went in alone. That same game kindl made a bad pinch as usual and Boston came in on a 2 on 1. Instead of turning around to hustle back to help, kindl skated backwards the whole way back as if he didn't even realize it was a 2 on 1 behind him. He is flat out awful and I see no value in him for this team. He is awful defensively and smith is light years better then him offensively. Kindl needs to go this off season.

[VM1138 1,921]

I like Howard and don't think we NEED to swap goalies, but the idea of Miller joining us is tantalizing. I've always imagined him playing here later in his career. Joining his brother on a rising team might give Holland the storyline motivation he needs to be really aggressive in building a Cup team.

[wings_fanatic 677]

I like Howard and don't think we NEED to swap goalies, but the idea of Miller joining us is tantalizing. I've always imagined him playing here later in his career. Joining his brother on a rising team might give Holland the storyline motivation he needs to be really aggressive in building a Cup team.

If miller is indeed testing free agency then I have a hard time to believe he won't inquire about Detroit. He grew up here, and his brother plays here so the pieces are easy to put together.

Also I just read on the fourth period that jake Gardiner could be out of Toronto as they want to change up their blue line this off season.... I think he would be a GREAT addition to the red wings! Kronner- E, Gardiner- Dekeyser

[Dabura 12,207]

I just don't see the wisdom in bringing in a Ryan Sproul right now. Isn't that kind of the opposite of what we want? Isn't the whole problem with our D corps that it's so young and inexperienced and jumpy and offense-minded and prone to making stupid mistakes? With all but one of our remaining games being on the road, the opposition's strategy would be pretty simple: get [big guns] on the ice against the new kid at every opportunity.

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

I just don't see the wisdom in bringing in a Ryan Sproul right now. Isn't that kind of the opposite of what we want? Isn't the whole problem with our D corps that it's so young and inexperienced and jumpy and offense-minded and prone to making stupid mistakes? With all but one of our remaining games being on the road, the opposition's strategy would be pretty simple: get [big guns] on the ice against the new kid at every opportunity.

Sproul would have to be on a line with a really good defensive Dman at this point. I think that Ouellet would be great right now. His hockey IQ is off the charts. Let's put it this way, Holland has a lot of choices this summer as to who can, will, or should be on the team. He better not mess it up.

[MasterPavel 115]

If miller is indeed testing free agency then I have a hard time to believe he won't inquire about Detroit. He grew up here, and his brother plays here so the pieces are easy to put together.

Also I just read on the fourth period that jake Gardiner could be out of Toronto as they want to change up their blue line this off season.... I think he would be a GREAT addition to the red wings! Kronner- E, Gardiner- Dekeyser

Miller will end up on the west coast. His wife is an actress and wants the family together.

Yes to Jake Gardiner

[wings87 1,290]

If Kindl and Lashoff were singlehandedly blowing games every night, I'd be all for bringing up Ouellet. But, truth is, they've actually been pretty ok. I mean, think about it. Haven't we been winning? Haven't we beaten the likes of the Penguins and Bruins? Isn't it with Kindl and Lashoff playing pretty big minutes that we've surged back into the playoff picture? Sure, they cost us every night, but that's what third pairings do. They suck. They make you pull your hair out. They take ten years off your life. That Max Pacioretty terrorizes them one night in Montreal doesn't necessarily mean anything has gone terribly wrong. (The Habs have scored 12 goals in two games.)

The real issue is our top four. The biggest knock against Kronwall is that he's not what we need and expect him to be, which is an undisputed Norris candidate who can play 90 minutes a night and go +147 on the season. Ericsson's the next best thing, and he's out for the rest of forever. DeKeyser's a rookie. Quincey is Quincey. Smith is Smith. All of which means Kindl and Lashoff need to do some heavy lifting. Fortunately, they've mostly gotten the job done, showing Babs that he doesn't have to break in a kid with no NHL experience with two weeks to go in the regular season and our postseason streak hanging in the balance.

When you win-flaws are glanced over, and when you lose, flaws are magnified. When the Wings were winning it was great, but that didn't mean that all their problems magically disappeared. As far as the Habs game, that loss was a total team effort and not just the 3rd paintings fault. It's just that when Lashoff and Kindl are on the ice together it's a goal waiting to happen.

The top 4 is what it is, and it won't get any better until the offseason.

I just don't see the wisdom in bringing in a Ryan Sproul right now. Isn't that kind of the opposite of what we want? Isn't the whole problem with our D corps that it's so young and inexperienced and jumpy and offense-minded and prone to making stupid mistakes? With all but one of our remaining games being on the road, the opposition's strategy would be pretty simple: get [big guns] on the ice against the new kid at every opportunity.

I don't think the issue is that they are young and inexperienced, since half our team is young and inexperienced. The issue is that they have been irresponsible with the puck, and having them on the ice at the same time is a nightmare.

Isn't that the strategy now anyway? Get the best players on the ice against the 3rd pairing.

Edited April 6, 2014 by wings87

[Guest DeGraa55]

Miller will end up on the west coast. His wife is an actress and wants the family together.

Yes to Jake Gardiner

Where? Kings sharks and ducks all have goalies. So do the coyotes. Maybe Colorado? Unless he wants canada then the Canucks would love him I'm sure.

[MasterPavel 115]

Hiller's contract expires I believe. Anaheim or Vancouver would be the only options. I would love him to be here, but there are to many moving pieces for it to be realistic.

[paulwoodsfan 52]

I can't believe no one has challenged the idea that this year proves mgmt is stupid in leaving players down to "overripe." If anything, this year has proven that the Wings are correct in leaving the kids in the minors as long as they do. Everyone who is on the team now and spent time in Grand Rapids is ready to play in the NHL now, including a few that none of us expected to be playing this soon. That tells me that that they are doing the right thing, not the wrong thing.

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

Miller will end up on the west coast. His wife is an actress and wants the family together.

Yes to Jake Gardiner

So the family hasn't been together? Because last time I knew he's been playing in Buffalo for the past few years. Never knew his wife is an actress.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

So the family hasn't been together? Because last time I knew he's been playing in Buffalo for the past few years. Never knew his wife is an actress.

As much as I would love having him I think the Ducks are easily the frontrunner for his services:

- their top 6 is basically set lot's of young guns coming

- thanks to revenue sharing he will get paid very well

- low pressure market with all the privacy in the world

- close to his wife

so I can easily see, why he would choose the Ducks.

[joshy207 156]

I would re-call Nathan Paetsch and pair him with Smith on the 3rd when E is back. He is an elite skater and has vast experience.

Def for the next 4 games, the Griffs are in their p/o we need 3 pts to make sure the game in Buffalo is a must win now.

Paetsch is not under contract to Detroit, he cannot simply be "recalled". Detroit would have to sign him first... which may be possible, I think they are sitting at 49 contracts right now.

I can't believe no one has challenged the idea that this year proves mgmt is stupid in leaving players down to "overripe." If anything, this year has proven that the Wings are correct in leaving the kids in the minors as long as they do. Everyone who is on the team now and spent time in Grand Rapids is ready to play in the NHL now, including a few that none of us expected to be playing this soon. That tells me that that they are doing the right thing, not the wrong thing.

You are contradicting yourself all over this post.

Are you saying that this year proves overripening is stupid, and you can't believe nobody has said you're wrong? Or the opposite? Because your first two sentences are total opposites.

The Wings did not think they could count on Jurco or Sheahan this year. Instead, those two players are on what has been the Wings' best line many nights. They did not expect Nyquist and Tatar to be the major contributors they have become. Last year, they did not expect to have Andersson, Nyquist, Tatar, or Lashoff in the lineup, let alone contribute the way they did. Most of the other "cup of coffee" call-ups have played quite well, too.

If someone that "none of us expected to be playing this soon" is getting regular icetime and contributing in the NHL, that player was NOT overripened. That would include Jurco and Sheahan this year, and others like Helm and Kronwall who were called up full-time before they ran out of waiver exemptions.

If anything, the last two years have PROVEN that the Wings DO NOT NEED to leave prospects in the AHL as long as they do with little-to-no NHL playing time. Their AHL coaching staff is doing a phenomenal job of developing these players, and those players should be rewarded with opportunities to make the Wings' roster out of training camp and/or having chances to be called up and play regularly during the season without having to wait for the injury bug to strike.

[joshy207 156]

So the family hasn't been together? Because last time I knew he's been playing in Buffalo for the past few years. Never knew his wife is an actress.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1715275/?ref_=nv_sr_1

Noureen DeWulf. She has been in a bunch of movies and TV shows, but nothing of major significance... beautiful woman, though.

[Dabura 12,207]

You are contradicting yourself all over this post.

Are you saying that this year proves overripening is stupid, and you can't believe nobody has said you're wrong? Or the opposite? Because your first two sentences are total opposites.

The Wings did not think they could count on Jurco or Sheahan this year. Instead, those two players are on what has been the Wings' best line many nights. They did not expect Nyquist and Tatar to be the major contributors they have become. Last year, they did not expect to have Andersson, Nyquist, Tatar, or Lashoff in the lineup, let alone contribute the way they did. Most of the other "cup of coffee" call-ups have played quite well, too.

If someone that "none of us expected to be playing this soon" is getting regular icetime and contributing in the NHL, that player was NOT overripened. That would include Jurco and Sheahan this year, and others like Helm and Kronwall who were called up full-time before they ran out of waiver exemptions.

If anything, the last two years have PROVEN that the Wings DO NOT NEED to leave prospects in the AHL as long as they do with little-to-no NHL playing time. Their AHL coaching staff is doing a phenomenal job of developing these players, and those players should be rewarded with opportunities to make the Wings' roster out of training camp and/or having chances to be called up and play regularly during the season without having to wait for the injury bug to strike.

I think what he means is that these kids are as good as they are right now largely because they've spent time in the minors. And I think he's right. I hate that I'm "taking the company line" in this thread, but here, as with Kindl and Lashoff (who's only 23, btw), I'm not sure there's a whole lot to justifiably complain about. Sheahan wasn't ready last season and he didn't really impress in training camp back in the fall. Jurco wasn't ready last season, but I imagine it was more or less understood that he'd be getting a look this season because he'd be filling out to around 190 (something Nyquist and Tatar never had going for them). Glendening wasn't ready until recently. Callahan wasn't ready until recently. I'm not sure Ferraro is ready even now. Nyquist and Tatar could've been regulars last season, but they didn't really need to be regulars last season. Just because you can insert a kid into the lineup doesn't necessarily mean you need to or should insert him into the lineup.

It does kinda suck that injuries are a Griffin's only shot at, well, a shot - but we have tons of injuries every season, so it works out. And now we're looking at a lot of kids making next season's roster out of camp. We might even be seeing one or possibly two of Sproul/Almqvist/Ouellet/Marchenko joining what is already a very young back end.

[paulwoodsfan 52]

For some reason I can't get Quotes to work, but Dabura is correct about what I meant. There was post early in this thread asserting that this year proved the Wings are stupid to leave the kids in GR as long as they do. I am arguing the opposite -- that this year proves the strategy works. We were decimated by injuries and forced to use kids from the farm, and lo and behold most of them were ready. To me that proves success, not failure.

[joshy207 156]

I believe it works in some cases and not as well in others. Of course, pretty much everyone but the high-end draft picks will spend time in the minors, that's the way player development works. Exceptions like DeKeyser, Justin Schultz, and a few other college free agents have spent 3-4 extra developmental years in college. The key is calling them up at the right time... not rushing them and putting them in situations where they can't succeed, but not leaving them in the AHL for too long and stunting their development.

I agree on Sheahan and Jurco, neither were ready last year and probably weren't this September. Also agree on Callahan and Ferraro, who I think will be either marginal 4th-liners or AHL journeymen. But if Tatar and Nyquist were ready last year, why not have them up full-time? (It has worked out for the best, as they're the top 2 forwards playing right now, but that could have still happened had they been full-timers last year.)

My biggest case against "overripening" is Brendan Smith. Babcock declared him NHL-ready 2 years before he cracked the Wings' lineup full-time, but by leaving him in Grand Rapids, they not only allowed him to stay at a level where he was able to cover up for his mistakes because the game is slower, but they also missed out on a chance for him to watch and learn from one of the best defensemen to ever play the game, if not THE best. I wonder out loud if staying in Grand Rapids for so long actually stunted his development, and if that's why we watch him mix flashes of brilliance in with consistent mistakes. Maybe some of those mistakes became habits in Grand Rapids because they didn't hurt him or the team.

Next year, the Wings have absolutely no reason to send Sheahan down. Jurco, IMO, should stay in Detroit too. His offensive numbers don't quite indicate how well he has been playing, but that will come with a little more time and patience. Glendening can go either way, he's a nice defensive 4th-line center and pest, but doesn't provide anything offensively. Callahan only got one game to prove he's worth re-signing before he runs out of waiver exemptions, and that is not enough of a chance. If he's re-signed, they'll risk losing him on waivers if he doesn't make the roster. Same with Ferraro, who I think has less of a chance of returning. Pulkkinen looked alright in his time up here, but should start the year in GR and be the first callup for a top-9 replacement role. It's been said Mantha will have a chance to compete for a spot... let's hope there is one available for him to possibly fill.

Back to the original topic though, right now Kindl and Lashoff are pretty much the best option available for the third pairing. I think Kindl's been a disappointment, given his apparent jump forward last year and the shiny new 4-year contract it earned him. Lashoff doesn't provide much offensively, but is generally dependable defensively for a bottom-pairing guy and can play with a little edge. And yes, he's only 23, so he's still young.