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A plea to Holland.


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#41 DeGraa55

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 06:47 PM

Miller will end up on the west coast. His wife is an actress and wants the family together.

Yes to Jake Gardiner


Where? Kings sharks and ducks all have goalies. So do the coyotes. Maybe Colorado? Unless he wants canada then the Canucks would love him I'm sure.

#42 MasterPavel

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 06:55 PM

Hiller's contract expires I believe. Anaheim or Vancouver would be the only options. I would love him to be here, but there are to many moving pieces for it to be realistic.

#43 paulwoodsfan

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 09:19 PM

I can't believe no one has challenged the idea that this year proves mgmt is stupid in leaving players down to "overripe." If anything, this year has proven that the Wings are correct in leaving the kids in the minors as long as they do. Everyone who is on the team now and spent time in Grand Rapids is ready to play in the NHL now, including a few that none of us expected to be playing this soon. That tells me that that they are doing the right thing, not the wrong thing.



#44 Hockeymom1960

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 09:24 PM

Miller will end up on the west coast. His wife is an actress and wants the family together.

Yes to Jake Gardiner

 

So the family hasn't been together?  Because last time I knew he's been playing in Buffalo for the past few years.  Never knew his wife is an actress.



#45 frankgrimes

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:02 AM

 

So the family hasn't been together?  Because last time I knew he's been playing in Buffalo for the past few years.  Never knew his wife is an actress.

 

As much as I would love having him I think the Ducks are easily the frontrunner for his services:

 

- their top 6 is basically set lot's of young guns coming

- thanks to revenue sharing he will get paid very well

- low pressure market with all the privacy in the world

- close to his wife

 

so I can easily see, why he would choose the Ducks.


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#46 joshy207

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 02:14 AM

I would re-call Nathan Paetsch and pair him with Smith on the 3rd when E is back. He is an elite skater and has vast experience. 

Def for the next 4 games, the Griffs are in their p/o we need 3 pts to make sure the game in Buffalo is a must win now.

 

Paetsch is not under contract to Detroit, he cannot simply be "recalled".  Detroit would have to sign him first... which may be possible, I think they are sitting at 49 contracts right now.

 

I can't believe no one has challenged the idea that this year proves mgmt is stupid in leaving players down to "overripe." If anything, this year has proven that the Wings are correct in leaving the kids in the minors as long as they do. Everyone who is on the team now and spent time in Grand Rapids is ready to play in the NHL now, including a few that none of us expected to be playing this soon. That tells me that that they are doing the right thing, not the wrong thing.

 

You are contradicting yourself all over this post.

Are you saying that this year proves overripening is stupid, and you can't believe nobody has said you're wrong?  Or the opposite?  Because your first two sentences are total opposites.

The Wings did not think they could count on Jurco or Sheahan this year.  Instead, those two players are on what has been the Wings' best line many nights.  They did not expect Nyquist and Tatar to be the major contributors they have become.  Last year, they did not expect to have Andersson, Nyquist, Tatar, or Lashoff in the lineup, let alone contribute the way they did.  Most of the other "cup of coffee" call-ups have played quite well, too.

If someone that "none of us expected to be playing this soon" is getting regular icetime and contributing in the NHL, that player was NOT overripened.  That would include Jurco and Sheahan this year, and others like Helm and Kronwall who were called up full-time before they ran out of waiver exemptions.

If anything, the last two years have PROVEN that the Wings DO NOT NEED to leave prospects in the AHL as long as they do with little-to-no NHL playing time.  Their AHL coaching staff is doing a phenomenal job of developing these players, and those players should be rewarded with opportunities to make the Wings' roster out of training camp and/or having chances to be called up and play regularly during the season without having to wait for the injury bug to strike.



#47 joshy207

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 02:19 AM

 

So the family hasn't been together?  Because last time I knew he's been playing in Buffalo for the past few years.  Never knew his wife is an actress.

 

http://www.imdb.com/...5/?ref_=nv_sr_1

 

Noureen DeWulf.  She has been in a bunch of movies and TV shows, but nothing of major significance... beautiful woman, though.



#48 Dabura

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 05:00 AM

You are contradicting yourself all over this post.

Are you saying that this year proves overripening is stupid, and you can't believe nobody has said you're wrong?  Or the opposite?  Because your first two sentences are total opposites.

The Wings did not think they could count on Jurco or Sheahan this year.  Instead, those two players are on what has been the Wings' best line many nights.  They did not expect Nyquist and Tatar to be the major contributors they have become.  Last year, they did not expect to have Andersson, Nyquist, Tatar, or Lashoff in the lineup, let alone contribute the way they did.  Most of the other "cup of coffee" call-ups have played quite well, too.

If someone that "none of us expected to be playing this soon" is getting regular icetime and contributing in the NHL, that player was NOT overripened.  That would include Jurco and Sheahan this year, and others like Helm and Kronwall who were called up full-time before they ran out of waiver exemptions.

If anything, the last two years have PROVEN that the Wings DO NOT NEED to leave prospects in the AHL as long as they do with little-to-no NHL playing time.  Their AHL coaching staff is doing a phenomenal job of developing these players, and those players should be rewarded with opportunities to make the Wings' roster out of training camp and/or having chances to be called up and play regularly during the season without having to wait for the injury bug to strike.

 

I think what he means is that these kids are as good as they are right now largely because they've spent time in the minors. And I think he's right. I hate that I'm "taking the company line" in this thread, but here, as with Kindl and Lashoff (who's only 23, btw), I'm not sure there's a whole lot to justifiably complain about. Sheahan wasn't ready last season and he didn't really impress in training camp back in the fall. Jurco wasn't ready last season, but I imagine it was more or less understood that he'd be getting a look this season because he'd be filling out to around 190 (something Nyquist and Tatar never had going for them). Glendening wasn't ready until recently. Callahan wasn't ready until recently. I'm not sure Ferraro is ready even now. Nyquist and Tatar could've been regulars last season, but they didn't really need to be regulars last season. Just because you can insert a kid into the lineup doesn't necessarily mean you need to or should insert him into the lineup.

 

It does kinda suck that injuries are a Griffin's only shot at, well, a shot - but we have tons of injuries every season, so it works out. And now we're looking at a lot of kids making next season's roster out of camp. We might even be seeing one or possibly two of Sproul/Almqvist/Ouellet/Marchenko joining what is already a very young back end.


Don't Toews me, bro!


#49 paulwoodsfan

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 06:50 AM

For some reason I can't get Quotes to work, but Dabura is correct about what I meant. There was post early in this thread asserting that this year proved the Wings are stupid to leave the kids in GR as long as they do. I am arguing the opposite -- that this year proves the strategy works. We were decimated by injuries and forced to use kids from the farm, and lo and behold most of them were ready. To me that proves success, not failure.



#50 joshy207

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:32 AM

I believe it works in some cases and not as well in others.  Of course, pretty much everyone but the high-end draft picks will spend time in the minors, that's the way player development works.  Exceptions like DeKeyser, Justin Schultz, and a few other college free agents have spent 3-4 extra developmental years in college.  The key is calling them up at the right time... not rushing them and putting them in situations where they can't succeed, but not leaving them in the AHL for too long and stunting their development.

I agree on Sheahan and Jurco, neither were ready last year and probably weren't this September.  Also agree on Callahan and Ferraro, who I think will be either marginal 4th-liners or AHL journeymen.  But if Tatar and Nyquist were ready last year, why not have them up full-time?  (It has worked out for the best, as they're the top 2 forwards playing right now, but that could have still happened had they been full-timers last year.)

My biggest case against "overripening" is Brendan Smith.  Babcock declared him NHL-ready 2 years before he cracked the Wings' lineup full-time, but by leaving him in Grand Rapids, they not only allowed him to stay at a level where he was able to cover up for his mistakes because the game is slower, but they also missed out on a chance for him to watch and learn from one of the best defensemen to ever play the game, if not THE best.  I wonder out loud if staying in Grand Rapids for so long actually stunted his development, and if that's why we watch him mix flashes of brilliance in with consistent mistakes.  Maybe some of those mistakes became habits in Grand Rapids because they didn't hurt him or the team.

 

Next year, the Wings have absolutely no reason to send Sheahan down.  Jurco, IMO, should stay in Detroit too.  His offensive numbers don't quite indicate how well he has been playing, but that will come with a little more time and patience.  Glendening can go either way, he's a nice defensive 4th-line center and pest, but doesn't provide anything offensively.  Callahan only got one game to prove he's worth re-signing before he runs out of waiver exemptions, and that is not enough of a chance.  If he's re-signed, they'll risk losing him on waivers if he doesn't make the roster.  Same with Ferraro, who I think has less of a chance of returning.  Pulkkinen looked alright in his time up here, but should start the year in GR and be the first callup for a top-9 replacement role.  It's been said Mantha will have a chance to compete for a spot... let's hope there is one available for him to possibly fill.

 

Back to the original topic though, right now Kindl and Lashoff are pretty much the best option available for the third pairing.  I think Kindl's been a disappointment, given his apparent jump forward last year and the shiny new 4-year contract it earned him.  Lashoff doesn't provide much offensively, but is generally dependable defensively for a bottom-pairing guy and can play with a little edge.  And yes, he's only 23, so he's still young.



#51 Dabura

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:48 PM

Don't get me wrong, joshy, I totally get where you're coming from. I just don't think there's much of an actual organizational problem here. Maybe some issues with the way a few specific cases have been handled, but any true red flags regarding The Process?


Don't Toews me, bro!


#52 wings4thecup06

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:57 PM

I believe it works in some cases and not as well in others.  Of course, pretty much everyone but the high-end draft picks will spend time in the minors, that's the way player development works.  Exceptions like DeKeyser, Justin Schultz, and a few other college free agents have spent 3-4 extra developmental years in college.  The key is calling them up at the right time... not rushing them and putting them in situations where they can't succeed, but not leaving them in the AHL for too long and stunting their development.

I agree on Sheahan and Jurco, neither were ready last year and probably weren't this September.  Also agree on Callahan and Ferraro, who I think will be either marginal 4th-liners or AHL journeymen.  But if Tatar and Nyquist were ready last year, why not have them up full-time?  (It has worked out for the best, as they're the top 2 forwards playing right now, but that could have still happened had they been full-timers last year.)

My biggest case against "overripening" is Brendan Smith.  Babcock declared him NHL-ready 2 years before he cracked the Wings' lineup full-time, but by leaving him in Grand Rapids, they not only allowed him to stay at a level where he was able to cover up for his mistakes because the game is slower, but they also missed out on a chance for him to watch and learn from one of the best defensemen to ever play the game, if not THE best.  I wonder out loud if staying in Grand Rapids for so long actually stunted his development, and if that's why we watch him mix flashes of brilliance in with consistent mistakes.  Maybe some of those mistakes became habits in Grand Rapids because they didn't hurt him or the team.

 

Next year, the Wings have absolutely no reason to send Sheahan down.  Jurco, IMO, should stay in Detroit too.  His offensive numbers don't quite indicate how well he has been playing, but that will come with a little more time and patience.  Glendening can go either way, he's a nice defensive 4th-line center and pest, but doesn't provide anything offensively.  Callahan only got one game to prove he's worth re-signing before he runs out of waiver exemptions, and that is not enough of a chance.  If he's re-signed, they'll risk losing him on waivers if he doesn't make the roster.  Same with Ferraro, who I think has less of a chance of returning.  Pulkkinen looked alright in his time up here, but should start the year in GR and be the first callup for a top-9 replacement role.  It's been said Mantha will have a chance to compete for a spot... let's hope there is one available for him to possibly fill.

 

Back to the original topic though, right now Kindl and Lashoff are pretty much the best option available for the third pairing.  I think Kindl's been a disappointment, given his apparent jump forward last year and the shiny new 4-year contract it earned him.  Lashoff doesn't provide much offensively, but is generally dependable defensively for a bottom-pairing guy and can play with a little edge.  And yes, he's only 23, so he's still young.

 

I agree. Developing prospects is so hard, and there are so many factors in play as to whether I guy will pan out or be a bust. Generally, I think the Wings have done an excellent job, and that has allowed them to 're-build on the fly' so to speak because when they do call a kid up, by and large, after a few games they're good to go. 

 

If it were down to me, I'd keep all of Sheahan, Jurco and Glendening on the roster next year. There really isn't any good reason to send them down. 

 

Whatever happens the rest of the way this season, it's going to be an interesting off season. 


temp 1

 


#53 ogreslayer

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 01:12 PM

 

As much as I would love having him I think the Ducks are easily the frontrunner for his services:

 

- their top 6 is basically set lot's of young guns coming

- thanks to revenue sharing he will get paid very well

- low pressure market with all the privacy in the world

- close to his wife

 

so I can easily see, why he would choose the Ducks.

 

All the speculation I've seen over the Ducks goalie situation revolves around the idea that if they're not interested in re-signing Hiller, it's because the front office wants to roll with Andersen with John Gibson as his backup as they're considering Gibson their goalie of the future.  I would actually be surprised if Miller does end up in Anaheim.  What wouldn't surprise me is the Blues taking the Cup this season & Miller re-signing there.



#54 joshy207

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 01:24 PM

Don't get me wrong, joshy, I totally get where you're coming from. I just don't think there's much of an actual organizational problem here. Maybe some issues with the way a few specific cases have been handled, but any true red flags regarding The Process?

 

My biggest issue is that this is the automatic way it's done.  The roster is always full of veterans so there's little room for any of the prospects to even get a chance until someone gets hurt or until they've run out of waiver options.  I'm sure it's because Babcock and Holland don't generally trust rookies/young players until they prove their worthiness, but maybe that's changed this year.  I think it has with Babcock, and I hope it has with Holland.  Not completely, I don't think they should abandon the process and rush Mantha, Pulkkinen, Athanasiou, Mrazek, and some of the young defensemen all up here next year, but start leaving room for some of them to get a decent taste of NHL action and go from there.



#55 dirtydangles

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 06:13 PM

At what point do we start considering Almquist as a possible asset? Even if he is undersized and not rugged - he has 52 points in 69 games right now. I would prefer to have him play over Kindl as he can actually run a power play and pass the puck effectively. He can't be much worse than Kindl in his own zone right now. Would be nice to showcase him right now and then trade him if he isn't in our long term plans due to ouellet, sproul, marchenko. 


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#56 DickieDunn

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 06:33 PM

At what point do we start considering Almquist as a possible asset? Even if he is undersized and not rugged - he has 52 points in 69 games right now. I would prefer to have him play over Kindl as he can actually run a power play and pass the puck effectively. He can't be much worse than Kindl in his own zone right now. Would be nice to showcase him right now and then trade him if he isn't in our long term plans due to ouellet, sproul, marchenko. 

You know how bad people say Smith, Kindl, and Lashoff are defensively? Almquist is worse. He can't handle AHL forwards, he'd be destroyed by even 3rd line NHL guys.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#57 dirtydangles

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 06:48 PM

You know how bad people say Smith, Kindl, and Lashoff are defensively? Almquist is worse. He can't handle AHL forwards, he'd be destroyed by even 3rd line NHL guys.

I wouldn't say Smith or Lashoff are bad defensively. Almquist is still +9 despite most of his points being pp points. He didn't look THAT outclassed defensively when he was in detroit last...


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#58 Behind Enemy Lines in CO

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:08 PM

At what point do we start considering Almquist as a possible asset? Even if he is undersized and not rugged - he has 52 points in 69 games right now. I would prefer to have him play over Kindl as he can actually run a power play and pass the puck effectively. He can't be much worse than Kindl in his own zone right now. Would be nice to showcase him right now and then trade him if he isn't in our long term plans due to ouellet, sproul, marchenko. 

 

"Even is he is undersized and not rugged"  -  I remember Rafalski's last year here and people complaining that he got ran by opposing team's large forwards.  Shudder to think what would be said of Almquist.



#59 DickieDunn

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:15 PM


You know how bad people say Smith, Kindl, and Lashoff are defensively? Almquist is worse. He can't handle AHL forwards, he'd be destroyed by even 3rd line NHL guys.


I wouldn't say Smith or Lashoff are bad defensively. Almquist is still +9 despite most of his points being pp points. He didn't look THAT outclassed defensively when he was in detroit last...


You must not have seen the same game I did then. I thought he was absolutely worthless in the d zone.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#60 Buppy

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:53 PM

 

My biggest issue is that this is the automatic way it's done.  The roster is always full of veterans so there's little room for any of the prospects to even get a chance until someone gets hurt or until they've run out of waiver options.  I'm sure it's because Babcock and Holland don't generally trust rookies/young players until they prove their worthiness, but maybe that's changed this year.  I think it has with Babcock, and I hope it has with Holland.  Not completely, I don't think they should abandon the process and rush Mantha, Pulkkinen, Athanasiou, Mrazek, and some of the young defensemen all up here next year, but start leaving room for some of them to get a decent taste of NHL action and go from there.

Well, it's not the automatic way it's done. More often than not the really good players do earn roster spots before they run out of waiver exemptions. Usually because they're good enough to earn an injury call-up prior to that, and perform well when they do. Occasionally it's just because we have an opening.

 

Fischer, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Filppula, Helm, Smith, Brunner, Dekeyser... all of them did it. Possibly Hudler and Kronwall as well. Maybe even Abby (I think 07-08 counted as his first year, but maybe not).

 

Tatar and Nyquist are more exception than rule. The guys that normally get left down until they're out of options are the guys like Kindl, Emmerton, Andersson, Kopecky, Ritola, Mursak...

 

Free agency is a narrow window, and once you let that opportunity go you can't go back. Sign a proven player and leave a kid you think is ready in the minors: It doesn't work out, or you have injuries, you have the option of using that kid. Pick the kid instead of a proven player what happens if it doesn't work? Fall back on another kid you didn't think was as good as the first one?

 

And now we're getting to a point where kids are competing against other kids. Emmerton lost his spot to Andersson. Andy may be headed the same way, or if not then there's less opportunity for Glendening, Ferraro, and Callahan. Could be hard to find spots in the lineup for all of Tatar, Nyquist, Jurco, and Pulkkinen, even if we leave one or both of Jurco and Pulu in GR next year and that's not even considering Mantha possibly jumping one (or both) of them.

 

In short, nothing about how we handle young players needs to change. Mostly because we already handle them the way you're all suggesting anyway. The way we handled Nyquist this year should have been different, which is to say it should have been the way we handled other good kids in the past. But that's in the past, it worked out pretty well regardless, and there's no good reason to think it's a pattern or particularly likely to happen again.







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