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Dabura

Babcock and Holland Talk About Stuff

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As I said in another thread, I'm thrilled, as we all are, at how this has all worked out with Cleary, Sammy and Bert riding the pine (and outta here next season) and seeing the kids thriving with the big club. But Babcock "boldly" stating that they're good and have jobs, yeah, well the grass is green and the sky is blue. He was basically given no choice but to play the Griffins. They excelled because they weren't brought up and put on a 4th line and given 5 minutes a game. They had to log a lot of minutes and each and every one of them took the opportunity and ran with it.

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As I said in another thread, I'm thrilled, as we all are, at how this has all worked out with Cleary, Sammy and Bert riding the pine (and outta here next season) and seeing the kids thriving with the big club. But Babcock "boldly" stating that they're good and have jobs, yeah, well the grass is green and the sky is blue. He was basically given no choice but to play the Griffins. They excelled because they weren't brought up and put on a 4th line and given 5 minutes a game. They had to log a lot of minutes and each and every one of them took the opportunity and ran with it.

You sound just like Babcock. Or maybe Holland. Either way, I'm confused.

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As I said in another thread, I'm thrilled, as we all are, at how this has all worked out with Cleary, Sammy and Bert riding the pine (and outta here next season) and seeing the kids thriving with the big club. But Babcock "boldly" stating that they're good and have jobs, yeah, well the grass is green and the sky is blue. He was basically given no choice but to play the Griffins. They excelled because they weren't brought up and put on a 4th line and given 5 minutes a game. They had to log a lot of minutes and each and every one of them took the opportunity and ran with it.

Isn't that what you're supposed to do? Take the opportunity and run with it to earn your job?

Ya he signed some guys he shouldn't have, but the kids got a chance to prove themselves, and they did. Now management feels comfortable keeping them around.

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I'm not sure what's confusing about it. If the season had gone "as planned", Bert, Sammy and Cleary would all have regular roles, probably in the top 6, they'd all have PP time, even though they may not have produced effectively. The Wings would still have been floundering, but we'd hear all about the veteran leadership, and these guys have been through the battles, he has faith in them, can't rush these guys from Grand Rapids etc. Guys like Tatar and Nyquist would have been eased into the lineup with a few minutes on the 4th line with Drew Miller and Patrick Eaves and a healthy scratch every other night with Babcock unsure if they were ready because they can't produce. Sheahan and Jurco would have never gotten a sniff of the big club.

Had Babcock said last summer we're going to give the kids regular jobs and go in a different direction, we wish Dan Cleary well with Philadelphia, we thank Samuelsson for his service, but we have decided to use the compliance buyout on him and Todd Bertuzzi will be our guy off the bench, THAT would have been a bold move for the Red Wings.

The old vets were pathetic, the massive amount of injuries forced the Wings to do the call ups and the kids delivered. So it's not really going out on a limb to say, hey these kids have jobs now and the other guys won't get theirs back when they're "healthy" (wink, wink).

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They couldn't buy out Samuelsson because he hadn't received medical clearance at the time, and Bertuzzi's deal wasn't worth it. The only real bad mistake was bringing back Cleary.

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Remember when the topic was what we need to win the cup again.

Now we are content to keep this streak alive.

Edited by KATIEBARTHEDOOR24

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Remember when the topic was what we need to win the cup again.

Now we are content to keep this streak alive.

They need time to reload before they're going to be favorites for the Cup again. There are no quick fixes in free agency like there used to be where your 3rd choice was still going to be pretty good. Now there might be 2 legit top flight players available at any given position, usually one, and the 3rd or 4th best player is going to be a big step below that top guy. They need to develop and build through the draft, and despite having some guys graduating, they're still a couple years away.

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Was it ever "officially" determined that they were going to buy out Sammy? I think it was denied on all sides. In any case, I meant it as more of a hypothetical scenario, not that they had to do all those exact things.

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Was it ever "officially" determined that they were going to buy out Sammy? I think it was denied on all sides. In any case, I meant it as more of a hypothetical scenario, not that they had to do all those exact things.

Everything I read about it said that they couldn't because he wasn't officially cleared to play after his injury, so he could have fought it and they didn't bother trying. Otherwise I can't see why they wouldn't have if it had been a legit option.

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Well, they brought back Cleary, so there's that. ;)

I always felt like the 1st compliance was kind of wasted on Colaiocovo. He wasn't great by any stretch, but his contract wasn't an albatross, and I'd have rather they rid themselves of a forward than a defenseman. Babcock seemed to dislike him from the get go, like Tootoo.

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Well, they brought back Cleary, so there's that. ;)

I always felt like the 1st compliance was kind of wasted on Colaiocovo. He wasn't great by any stretch, but his contract wasn't an albatross, and I'd have rather they rid themselves of a forward than a defenseman. Babcock seemed to dislike him from the get go, like Tootoo.

Cola played well when he wasn't hurt, but he was hurt all the time, and they had 8 d-men. They got rid of the one who had absolutely no chance of a long term future with the team. None of the Wings have truly terrible contracts, Samuelsson at one year and $3 mil left is the worst. It's not like they signed an aging injury prone center to a 5 year 22.5 mil contract, or a winger with one big year to $5.25 mil for 7 years, or a guy coming off a year where he scored 3 goals in 40 games to a 5 year deal deal worth $24.25 mil total.

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I see Doug Brown's son..who played at Boston College...signed with Carolina...also I see Nashville is on NBCSN tonight...possibly see Jarnkrok

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Was it ever "officially" determined that they were going to buy out Sammy? I think it was denied on all sides. In any case, I meant it as more of a hypothetical scenario, not that they had to do all those exact things.

Sammy or his agent (can't remember exactly)said that the wings never made any contact whatsoever about a buyout.

Well, they brought back Cleary, so there's that. ;)

I always felt like the 1st compliance was kind of wasted on Colaiocovo. He wasn't great by any stretch, but his contract wasn't an albatross, and I'd have rather they rid themselves of a forward than a defenseman. Babcock seemed to dislike him from the get go, like Tootoo.

I personally felt it was a waste cause they gave him(and Sammy) two year deals when it wasn't needed. They had questions at both positions, fine. Sign them TO A ONE YEAR DEAL. No team was going to sign them anyways lol.

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I'm not sure what's confusing about it. If the season had gone "as planned", Bert, Sammy and Cleary would all have regular roles, probably in the top 6, they'd all have PP time, even though they may not have produced effectively. The Wings would still have been floundering, but we'd hear all about the veteran leadership, and these guys have been through the battles, he has faith in them, can't rush these guys from Grand Rapids etc. Guys like Tatar and Nyquist would have been eased into the lineup with a few minutes on the 4th line with Drew Miller and Patrick Eaves and a healthy scratch every other night with Babcock unsure if they were ready because they can't produce. Sheahan and Jurco would have never gotten a sniff of the big club.

Had Babcock said last summer we're going to give the kids regular jobs and go in a different direction, we wish Dan Cleary well with Philadelphia, we thank Samuelsson for his service, but we have decided to use the compliance buyout on him and Todd Bertuzzi will be our guy off the bench, THAT would have been a bold move for the Red Wings.

The old vets were pathetic, the massive amount of injuries forced the Wings to do the call ups and the kids delivered. So it's not really going out on a limb to say, hey these kids have jobs now and the other guys won't get theirs back when they're "healthy" (wink, wink).

Not really sure where the "bold" thing is coming from. Sounds like you're just inventing something to criticize. I also have to question your speculation about what was "planned", since it doesn't really match up with reality.

You really think Bert, Sammy, and Cleary would have been in the top 6? On a team with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Weiss, and Alfredsson? Coached by a guy who seems determined to make Abby a top-6er? None of those guys have ever had the kind of prominence some fans seem to think they did. They weren't supposed to be stars, weren't signed instead of stars, and weren't paid like stars. They're just role-players who, for the most part, have performed very well for their roles and pay grade. Just not so much last year or this. And this year their roles seemed to be even smaller than usual. (Hard to say about last year, since Bert and Sammy missed most of it.)

The planned top 6 seemed to be:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader

Franzen-Weiss-Alfredsson

Bottom 6 requires a bit of speculation, since we weren't healthy to start.

Helm - Seems obvious he would be a regular

Miller - Played every game, even when we've had healthy options, seems obvious

Andersson - 4th center until recently, seems obvious

That leaves 3 spots open for Bert, Sammy, Cleary, Tatar, Emmerton, Tootoo, Eaves. With a healthy team, two of those guys are gone. Considering how the season has played out, it's probably safe to say it would have been two of Emmy, Tootoo, and Eaves (leaving Sammy out because we didn't get any real cap relief from him). Emmy was waived before the start of the year, only got to stay because we needed a center. Eaves was hurt at first, and has always been pretty much the first out of the lineup, so we'll go with those two.

Sammy, Tootoo, and Tatar it seems were in competition for a spot. Over the first 9 games, only one was in the lineup at a time. Sammy and Tootoo each got 4, Tatar got 1. Tatar came back in game 10, and hasn't left since. No reason to think that would have gone any differently, since we were still pretty healthy at the time. So the last three likely end up being Tatar, Bert, and Cleary.

Obviously, Nyquist should have replaced one of Bert or Cleary. But Sheahan or Jurco? No good spot for them when we're healthy. They are better served playing a key role in GR, adding depth to the organization, than fighting over the 12th forward spot here. Even if we do finagle the lineup to get them in, I don't think it makes us better. Only so much ice-time to go around.

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You really think Bert, Sammy, and Cleary would have been in the top 6? On a team with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Weiss, and Alfredsson? Coached by a guy who seems determined to make Abby a top-6er?

Since both Bert and Cleary got multiple chances on the top 6 before the rash of injuries Id say yes.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

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Since both Bert and Cleary got multiple chances on the top 6 before the rash of injuries Id say yes. Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

No, not really. Bert for a little bit in Abby's spot. But why let reality get in the way of a good *****-fest, amirite?

This one time, I heard Babs and Kenny talking about playing Bert-Cleary-Sammy for 60 minutes a game. Decided it wouldn't be fair to the rest of the league though. Dumb ol' Babs and Kenny.

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Bertuzzi and Cleary would have spent time in that 6th spot in the top six, but none of them would have been regulars there. Samuelsson was meant to be a 3rd or 4th line winger and point man for the PP. Samuelsson was a disaster from the get go thanks to injuries, Bertuzzi had stretches where he was useful. I understand the reasoning for both deals. I don't get the Cleary signing though. I know they think he's a great guy and everything but they already had too many forwards and were over the cap.

The reason they played Samuelsson early is simple. They had him, they needed to see if he could help at all and hope he showed something so another team would take him. He was banished fairly early on when he didn't do anything.

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No, not really. Bert for a little bit in Abby's spot. But why let reality get in the way of a good *****-fest, amirite?

This one time, I heard Babs and Kenny talking about playing Bert-Cleary-Sammy for 60 minutes a game. Decided it wouldn't be fair to the rest of the league though. Dumb ol' Babs and Kenny.

No, you really aren't right. I don't think anyone was going out of their way to gripe. I just felt like it was amusing to hear Babcock declare that the kids now have won jobs and the 3 guys on expiring contracts won't get their jobs back. I think Holland had more of a mea culpa attitude than Babcock. He didn't really admit to being wrong, but sheepishly had to admit that the "kids" were better than he thought.

One needs only to look to last year. Cleary was absolutely awful. Yet not only was he not ever benched, he was continually rewarded with top line minutes and PP time. It was supposedly due to all the injuries. Tatar was brought up and seemed to be NHL ready. His reward was a ticket back to GR. Cleary was brought back despite having no cap room, no roster space and without a doubt at the expense of a young player.

Babcock and Holland have always favored veteran players over youth. They also have gone out of their way not to "offend" an older player by having them be a healthy scratch, up until recently. Well, I think their line is all three of them are "injured". But there's oddly very little talk about it.

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I see Doug Brown's son..who played at Boston College...signed with Carolina...also I see Nashville is on NBCSN tonight...possibly see Jarnkrok

Great news. Good kid, great family. I think he made the All Academic team also. Turned into more of a grinder in college, but I think he can carve out a similar role that his dad did in the NHL.

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No, you really aren't right. I don't think anyone was going out of their way to gripe. I just felt like it was amusing to hear Babcock declare that the kids now have won jobs and the 3 guys on expiring contracts won't get their jobs back. I think Holland had more of a mea culpa attitude than Babcock. He didn't really admit to being wrong, but sheepishly had to admit that the "kids" were better than he thought.

One needs only to look to last year. Cleary was absolutely awful. Yet not only was he not ever benched, he was continually rewarded with top line minutes and PP time. It was supposedly due to all the injuries. Tatar was brought up and seemed to be NHL ready. His reward was a ticket back to GR. Cleary was brought back despite having no cap room, no roster space and without a doubt at the expense of a young player.

Babcock and Holland have always favored veteran players over youth. They also have gone out of their way not to "offend" an older player by having them be a healthy scratch, up until recently. Well, I think their line is all three of them are "injured". But there's oddly very little talk about it.

What I mean is you act like Babs and Kenny were trying to tout their own genius. Like they were saying, "Look how awesome we were to play the kids". Like you're searching for some negative connotation to read into what was said.

Also, I think many fans interpret a kid being sent to the minors as a statement that the kid isn't ready, or isn't good enough. I don't think that's true at all. I think our management just knows that having good players in the minors is a good thing. An insurance policy. Someone gets hurt, or the team is struggling, it gives you options.

While there's no doubt the Wings do like to rely on vets, like I've said before they are not nearly as opposed to youth as most seem to think. And the vets, as much as people like to call them absolutely awful, have typically been much better than they get credit for. Familiarity breeds contempt. Last year Cleary scored at a rate similar to Nyquist and Tatar, was also one of our top Pkers, and 2nd on the team in playoff scoring.

Which is not to say that he should have been brought back, or that Sammy should have been signed. Just saying that it's a rare situation that a kid that really deserves to be on the team is left off. It's not the pattern you all suggest it is. Nor are kids the answer to every problem. They're just new, which makes them exciting. Drop the double standards and judge everyone objectively.

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