DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 Bob, Vanek has and can score 40+ goals per year with a good C. h ha 2 seasons already with 40 or more goals. Both with the Sabres. how long ago was that? Even at 40 goals, that's an insane contract for a winger with average defensive abilities and questionable toughness who is 30 years old. $7mil for 4 years, if he wants 7 years he can take less money for the term, or I won't sign him. I don't care if he can get that, he's not worth it and some other GM can pay him that much for that term. If the wings played Franzen on the top line and told him that he didn't need to worry about anything but scoring, he'd probably score 35+ too. No..... just NO 1 Z Winged Dangler reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 DD, Franzen could NEVER score 40 goals. Hell he can't even score 30. How old is Franzen BTW? Oh yeah 34 and breaking down. That is the danger here, not the money paid out. We have a ton of cap room and there is no one else to spend it on. Stars just are not going to make it to UFA anymore. We also don't have enough players to make any trades to improve ourselves. Right now we have 2 options. 1 Play the young kids, stand pat, and continue to fight for a PO spot until datsyuk retires. OR Make some big time moves, take a risk or 2, and make another Cup run. If we are not going to try and make another Cup run, then why did we resign datsyuk? What was the point? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BadgerBob 297 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 Bob, Vanek has and can score 40+ goals per year with a good C. h ha 2 seasons already with 40 or more goals. Both with the Sabres. Last time he scored 40 goals was 6 years ago. Last time he scored MORE than 40 goals was 8 years ago. Old news. If we're gonna make a guy the highest paid player in the game he needs to be consistently within the top 3 in goals and or points. I don't think that Vanek could do that at all. 1 Z Winged Dangler reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joesuffP 1,746 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Lol @ Vanek for 9 mil. We need a capable defensemen a hell of a lot more than overpaying for a guy like Vanek. We'll score a lot more goals if we had another defensemen that could chip in offensively and pass the puck. Having a D man that can put up 50+ points and make our power play up to top 10 is an extra 35+ goals a year Edited February 7, 2014 by joesuffP 4 Dabura, BadgerBob, rick zombo and 1 other reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amato 3,210 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 Stamkos might be the only player I'd pay 9+ mill.. vanek is good but over hyped because he's the biggest name guaranteed to be on the move at or near the trade deadline this year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 DD, Franzen could NEVER score 40 goals. Hell he can't even score 30. How old is Franzen BTW? Oh yeah 34 and breaking down. That is the danger here, not the money paid out. We have a ton of cap room and there is no one else to spend it on. Stars just are not going to make it to UFA anymore. We also don't have enough players to make any trades to improve ourselves. Right now we have 2 options. 1 Play the young kids, stand pat, and continue to fight for a PO spot until datsyuk retires. OR Make some big time moves, take a risk or 2, and make another Cup run. If we are not going to try and make another Cup run, then why did we resign datsyuk? What was the point? Franzen has been hitting 27 or 28 goals at just under $4mil cap hit. Vanek has been scoring 7 or 8 more goals than that. Are 7 or 8 goals worth another $4-5 million a year? If so, Bertuzzi is a fantastic bargain, he can get you that next year for about $1.5 mil. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 DD, now you are just being silly. Let's compare shall we. Franzen 34. 173 career regular season goals. 4 seasons out of 9, that he has scored 20 or more goals. That is it. factor in his multiple concussions-why long term deals are bad, and he is signed for 6 more seasons after this, each one with a 4 million $ cap hit. Vanek 30. 269 career regular season goals in 9 seasons. 8 soon to be 9 seasons of 20+ goals-needs 1 more this year. Vanek is twice the player Franzen is, which is why he will get 7-8 million per over a 7 year deal. I wouldn't want another long term contract for guys into their late 30's. We have enough of those already. So to get him, you have to pay him higher per year to get the shorter deal. 7 million x 8 years is 56 million. 9million x 5 years is only 45, but he will have 3 advantages. 1 he gets to play with Z and D every shift, and 2. At 34/5 he can sign another deal for another 25 million or so. So more money for him in the end. 3. he gets a real chance at a Cup if the RW's have any idea on how to work things this off season. Last point. Best guess is we will have 18-20 million in cap space this year after we resign all of our RFA's. After Vanek there is no one else to spend any serious money on. Meaning we can sign him, and still have 9-10 million left over heading into the season. Bringing him in frees up other assets to use for a trade to further improve the team, and allows us to bring on another big contract if we need to. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 Players that age don't get that money over that term. Parise, Getzlaf, and Perry the closest. Perry and Getzlaf bring more to the table and are younger, Parise is also younger and was signed to that deal more to get Suter than because anyone in their right mind thought they were worth it. Everyone else who has signed that type of deal are either far better (Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin) younger (Nash) or had low salary deals added to the end to lower the overall cap hit. The type of deal Vanek wants doesn't fall into any of those categories. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 DD you do realize that Vanek is a better offensive player than Parise, getzlef, and Perry right? All are in their 9th full season, just like Vanek is. All are 29 this season-P and G turn 29 in May, so only 1 year in age, and Vanek HAS OUT SCORED THEM ALL!. Vanek is 30 goals ahead of Parise and Perry. 100 goals ahead over Getzlef. Yes perry and getzlef bring other things along with them, but they are not UFA's. Vanek is. P and G also are signed for 7 more seasons after this one. They will be 36/7 when their contracts expire and still be costing their clubs 8 million per year. If they even make it that far. parise has what, 7 years left at 7 million per year. Add in for inflation and ya Vanek at 9 million for 5 years is about right. Still better than 7 years and 56 million. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BadgerBob 297 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 Add in for inflation and ya Vanek at 9 million for 5 years is about right. Still better than 7 years and 56 million. Man, I wish you were my boss, willing to pay me more for future inflation! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,207 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 Vanek and Franzen actually aren't all that different from each other. Certainly not $5M apart. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Son of a Wing 1,644 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 DD you do realize that Vanek is a better offensive player than Parise, getzlef, and Perry right? All are in their 9th full season, just like Vanek is. All are 29 this season-P and G turn 29 in May, so only 1 year in age, and Vanek HAS OUT SCORED THEM ALL!. Vanek is 30 goals ahead of Parise and Perry. 100 goals ahead over Getzlef. Yes perry and getzlef bring other things along with them, but they are not UFA's. Vanek is. P and G also are signed for 7 more seasons after this one. They will be 36/7 when their contracts expire and still be costing their clubs 8 million per year. If they even make it that far. parise has what, 7 years left at 7 million per year. Add in for inflation and ya Vanek at 9 million for 5 years is about right. Still better than 7 years and 56 million. No, no and no. Getzlaf, Perry and Parise are all much better hockey players. 3 Z Winged Dangler, BadgerBob and Detroit \# 1 Fan reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rick zombo 3,739 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 Are we talking about next year's team or about Vanek's value? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Son of a Wing 1,644 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 Are we talking about next year's team or about Vanek's value? Well some people want him on the team so his value was brought up. It's not like it's unrelated. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DatsyukianDekes 2,428 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Vanek is better than Franzen, not sure why there is even a debate about it. Vanek goes to the dirty area's to and score a lot of goals from in front of the net, has a wicked shot, amazing vision, stick handling and is decent on defense. Franzen isn't terrible for his cap hit, but his injuries and lack of motivation and consistency makes this not close for me. Edited February 7, 2014 by darkmanx Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 $9M for Vanek isn't too outrageous, maybe a little high. That's just the way FA goes. I'd be very surprised though if he signs for anything but 7 years. Buying out Franzen makes little sense. Upgrading from Franzen to Vanek isn't that big a difference, once you scrape away a few layers of irrational hate. Considering there isn't likely to be anyone available to really fix our defense we want to add to our forward strength, not just upgrade by 5-10 goals. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) A $9 mil salary puts Vanek as the 6th highest paid player in the NHL. A $9 mil cap hit puts him #2. DD, now you are just being silly. Let's compare shall we. Franzen 34. 173 career regular season goals. 4 seasons out of 9, that he has scored 20 or more goals. That is it. factor in his multiple concussions-why long term deals are bad, and he is signed for 6 more seasons after this, each one with a 4 million $ cap hit. Vanek 30. 269 career regular season goals in 9 seasons. 8 soon to be 9 seasons of 20+ goals-needs 1 more this year. Vanek is twice the player Franzen is, which is why he will get 7-8 million per over a 7 year deal. I wouldn't want another long term contract for guys into their late 30's. We have enough of those already. So to get him, you have to pay him higher per year to get the shorter deal. 7 million x 8 years is 56 million. 9million x 5 years is only 45, but he will have 3 advantages. 1 he gets to play with Z and D every shift, and 2. At 34/5 he can sign another deal for another 25 million or so. So more money for him in the end. 3. he gets a real chance at a Cup if the RW's have any idea on how to work things this off season. Last point. Best guess is we will have 18-20 million in cap space this year after we resign all of our RFA's. After Vanek there is no one else to spend any serious money on. Meaning we can sign him, and still have 9-10 million left over heading into the season. Bringing him in frees up other assets to use for a trade to further improve the team, and allows us to bring on another big contract if we need to. I don't care about career numbers. The last 3 years are a better indication of future performance than what someone did 6 years ago. This year Vanek is 24th in scoring. Lat year he was 29. the year before he was 54th. He's 30, on the back half of his career, is several years removed from his lat 40 goal season, and he hasn't been outscoring Franzen by a lot despite being the go to guy for his team. He plays wing, which doesn't bring as much value as a center, he's average at best defensively, and he's not physical at all. He is not worth close to $50 mil over 7 years. Similar players have signed for shorter term or less money for the most part. Getzlaf and Perry are both younger and better than Vanek. Parise got his deal because of Suter, and is also younger. Edited February 7, 2014 by DickieDunn Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PumpkinEscobar 136 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 None of those guys are worth what they will ask...save the cap space Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,207 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 None of those guys are worth what they will ask...save the cap space Not that I'm necessarily against this, but what exactly would we be saving the space for? Top UFAs are almost always going to be outrageously pricey, and that's if they don't re-sign. The rest of the UFAs are always going to make us say, "Eh, he's ok, but I'd rather we just give our leage minimum Griffins a shot." Holland isn't looking to make any big trades in the near future. Our young guns will need to get paid down the road, but that shouldn't be a huge, penny-pinching concern. (Alfie alone will free up $5M, if not this summer then the one after.) I guess I worry that we'll save up all this space and then overspend on a couple free agents just because we can (see: Tootoo, Samuelsson). I'm not saying we should spend all our space on Vanek or whatever. I'm just somewhat wary of saving and saving and saving when we're already looking at a good amount of space this summer, with the cap expected to rise. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bannedforlife 403 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 Not that I'm necessarily against this, but what exactly would we be saving the space for? Top UFAs are almost always going to be outrageously pricey, and that's if they don't re-sign. The rest of the UFAs are always going to make us say, "Eh, he's ok, but I'd rather we just give our leage minimum Griffins a shot." Holland isn't looking to make any big trades in the near future. Our young guns will need to get paid down the road, but that shouldn't be a huge, penny-pinching concern. (Alfie alone will free up $5M, if not this summer then the one after.) I guess I worry that we'll save up all this space and then overspend on a couple free agents just because we can (see: Tootoo, Samuelsson). I'm not saying we should spend all our space on Vanek or whatever. I'm just somewhat wary of saving and saving and saving when we're already looking at a good amount of space this summer, with the cap expected to rise. No s***... what are we going to be a cap floor team next year? I don't know what we are saving all this cap space for, there aren't any other elite players available this year and there probably won't be next year either. Better to use it than to lose it... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 Better to save it than hand out a contract that will likely be poison for the last 2 years of it. 1 BadgerBob reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bannedforlife 403 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Cross that bridge when we get to it. I'd rather win a Cup while we still have Datsyuk than worry about whether we may or may not have to trade or bury or buy out a few players 5 years from now. Edited February 7, 2014 by Bannedforlife 1 DatsyukianDekes reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 Vanek at 7+ or Boyes as 2.5 and another good player for 4.5? The Wings already have plenty of long term deals, I'd be hesitant to add many more, especially if the extra term doesn't give you a break in the cap. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bannedforlife 403 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) We already have enough average/midlevel forwards. As a matter of fact, we are bursting at the seams with them. We need high end, first line, elite players. Those cost money. A lot of it. Also, who is this other good player for 4.5? Good players aren't getting 4.5 anymore, they're getting 6-7 (See: Callahan, Ryan. Not Dirty Harry) Edited February 7, 2014 by Bannedforlife Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 Vanek isn't worth it. Not for 7 years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
