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Andy Pred 48

Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

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I honestly believe some people are really overestimating the "power" of us fans. Nothing we discuss here or somewhere else will have a direct impact on this organization, we have the luxury of acting like armchair-GMs positevly as well as negatively. That being said, I love the different viewings here on this board - compared to crap like HFboards where mods/admins will ban you - if you don't agree with their viewpoint things are discussed in a very civil manner here. The best part of it all is the focus on purely one team with some nice guests and information about other teams such as the Preds fan.

Holland has done a marvelous job over the years nobody is denying that but I'm questioning if he has still the fire, drive to go with a changed landscape ? Nobody other than himself can answer this question, the league has changed teams have to bring a heavy, physical game alongside skill now more than ever. One thing I did see and learn in the series against Boston is this, not only do you need to be physical you also need a smooth transistioning from the D to the offense and a goalie who will bail you out more often than not, i.e a perfect built team i.e Boston this year. Yes, they like the Wings will have some tough decisions to make thanks to the CBA but their big advantage is the grind-thing, when your team isn't purely built on skilled it's easier to fill the grinders "blue collar" spots with cheaper players or lower draft picks. So personally I expect them to be very good for at least a few more years.

Don't get me wrong I like the way how some of the GR prospects are coming along but let's keep the expectations in check, nobody not even Babock thought Nyquist would be that ready so he surprised almost everyone in the organization. That being said his scoring pace was stamkoslike and I really hope people aren't going to expect that from him every season, if this guy can become a solid 20 - 25 goalscorer annually I would be extremely happy the same goes for Tatar. Another factor are the opponents, at first new players aren't seen as dangerous - unless of course you are a top 10 or whatever pick - as time goes on tthe opponents are more aware of certain players and play them harder, more focused or ice their best lines, pairings against certain players. At this point the new players has to adopt and that's also the point, where they define their own road.

I did a quick look at the upcoming UFA pool and boy oh boy does that look like one meh class, NO star defenseman available and not one star winger that's just ridiculous. Nothing against guys like Niskanen - would love him here - but if he is by far the best available defenseman that's really telling. But the difference between this summer and some others is this:

The coach, captain are getting antsy of just squeezing into the playoffs and I'm sure if you ask them both would rather end the streak and if it means winning cup th next or following year. I still rank Holland in the top 5 in terms of GMs but - like everyone else - he has made some mistakes and seems to be panicking more often than not (Quincey, Legwand, Kindl...) so this is also his summer to show the fans and everyone in the league that he is still the top guy or at least on pair with guys like Chiarelli, Lombardi, Poile and Shero. Bringing back Alfie would be a mistake in my mind, he doesn't add anything if you don't play him on one of the top two lines but the thing is, even Abdelkader produced as Pasha's wing that's how good the two euro twins are but expecting a 41 years old Alfredsson to carry a line might be too much to ask. If the Wings would be looking for leadership and some veteran depth adding to an already stacked roster sure re-sign him but the Wings are retooling/building on the fly so I'd rather see him having a great last year in Ottawa and get his number deservingly retired there.

The needs are clear:

- size, grit --> easy to acquire and not expensive so there is absolutely no excuse to not sign guys like McGrattan, Orr for a fourth line role

- defense --> I cringe at the idea of signing Boyle rather have Niskanen but if we lose out on him I really don#t know who else would be a helpful edition :(

- pure goalscorer --> many will disagree but I'd rather have Moulson (cheaper almost same production) than Vanek

tl;dr - the off-season will be interesting and Kenny has a lot of capspace to play with

Edited by frankgrimes

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Holland has done a marvelous job over the years nobody is denying that but I'm questioning if he has still the fire, drive to go with a changed landscape ? Nobody other than himself can answer this question, the league has changed teams have to bring a heavy, physical game alongside skill now more than ever.

so this is also his summer to show the fans and everyone in the league that he is still the top guy or at least on pair with guys like Chiarelli, Lombardi, Poile and Shero.

frank.

Generally I agree with everything you've just said. Except for these two points above. And it's not that I don't agree, rather, I don't think they're 100% fair.

1. Going back to 2003 vs the Ducks up until now (highlighting 2007 matchups vs Calgary, San Jose, and Anahiem in particular) Wings fans have been screaming that we need to get bigger and tougher. Hell, when we were winning Presidents Trophies, this was to only and often cited criticism of the team (other than goaltending). We won the cup in 2008 followed by a highly skilled and not physically dominant Penguins team in 2009. The next four years was 50-50. Two big strong teams (Boston and LA) won and a highly skilled Blackhawks team won twice. Four of the last six cups were won by "skill-first" teams.

Chicago could very well repeat this year. Or Montreal could beat Boston. Or Colorado could go deep. Do we now focus on being small and fast? Know what I mean?

2. In his 16 years as Red Wings GM, Holland has never had a pick higher than 17th overall. The GMs you mentioned are all beneficiaries of the draft lottery. This is a huge deal. Since then, most of these GMs just have to make roster tweaks (much like Holland did in 2006 and 2007). But there is no question, they've all had way more to work with. I'd like to see what someone like Shero would do with Hollands skimpy resources.

Edited by rick zombo

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I'm all for adding some "grit" and "big bodies" up front, but I'm always worried about the price tags those guys command and how their bodies hold up. I agree there should be a balance on lines. The way the NHL seems to be heading, two skilled guys and a puck-retrieval/net presence is nearly the normal. Pure skilled-based lines are being weeded out, and are losing their effectiveness.

I look at two recent examples - Clowe and Clarkson - and it makes me wary of grabbing those types of guys at that point in their careers. We're not going to just find a skilled, power forward the likes of Lucic, Burns, Coyle, Kreider, etc.- not at where the team drafts from. It's the guys who are shells of their former selves that wind up available.

That being said, I think there are a few guys would could be a big boost for Detroit, if they were able to get their hands on them. Two guys who come immediately to mind are Dubinsky and Chris Stewart, especially Stewart. I'm not sure either of those guys will be leaving their respective teams. There are some other reclamation projects like David Booth, Nick Foligno and Drew Stafford that I wouldn't hate taking a look at, but I wonder if they could turn things around.

I'm honestly very for having balanced lines of attack - I'd love to see Chris Stewart playing right wing here. I just think it's not as easy to get those type of guys as some posters here believe, and the ones who are easy ending up being regrettable signings.

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frank.

Generally I agree with everything you've just said. Except for these two points above. And it's not that I don't agree, rather, I don't think they're 100% fair.

1. Going back to 2003 vs the Ducks up until now (highlighting 2007 matchups vs Calgary, San Jose, and Anahiem in particular) Wings fans have been screaming that we need to get bigger and tougher. Hell, when we were winning Presidents Trophies, this was to only and often cited criticism of the team (other than goaltending). We won the cup in 2008 followed by a highly skilled and not physically dominant Penguins team in 2009. The next four years was 50-50. Two big strong teams (Boston and LA) won and a highly skilled Blackhawks team won twice. Four of the last six cups were won by "skill-first" teams.

Chicago could very well repeat this year. Or Montreal could beat Boston. Or Colorado could go deep. Do we now focus on being small and fast? Know what I mean?

2. In his 16 years as Red Wings GM, Holland has never had a pick higher than 17th overall. The GMs you mentioned are all beneficiaries of the draft lottery. This is a huge deal. Since then, most of these GMs just have to make roster tweaks (much like Holland did in 2006 and 2007). But there is no question, they've all had way more to work with. I'd like to see what someone like Shero would do with Hollands skimpy resources.

Totally agree. Winning the cup isn't about being the biggest and toughest. It is about having that right balance. Sure there has to be grit in the lineup. But skill is even more important. A team just can't have too much of one thing.

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frank.

Generally I agree with everything you've just said. Except for these two points above. And it's not that I don't agree, rather, I don't think they're 100% fair.

1. Going back to 2003 vs the Ducks up until now (highlighting 2007 matchups vs Calgary, San Jose, and Anahiem in particular) Wings fans have been screaming that we need to get bigger and tougher. Hell, when we were winning Presidents Trophies, this was to only and often cited criticism of the team (other than goaltending). We won the cup in 2008 followed by a highly skilled and not physically dominant Penguins team in 2009. The next four years was 50-50. Two big strong teams (Boston and LA) won and a highly skilled Blackhawks team won twice. Four of the last six cups were won by "skill-first" teams.

Chicago could very well repeat this year. Or Montreal could beat Boston. Or Colorado could go deep. Do we now focus on being small and fast? Know what I mean?

2. In his 16 years as Red Wings GM, Holland has never had a pick higher than 17th overall. The GMs you mentioned are all beneficiaries of the draft lottery. This is a huge deal. Since then, most of these GMs just have to make roster tweaks (much like Holland did in 2006 and 2007). But there is no question, they've all had way more to work with. I'd like to see what someone like Shero would do with Hollands skimpy resources.

1. I think the Blackhawks are some sort of an anomaly their upfront firepower is ridiculous Toews, Kane, Sharp, Hossa and now they have this Tervainen kid waiting, add to that Keith and Seabrook as a top pairing and that's a lot of skill but guys like Toews, Hossa and especially Seabrook are far from being undersized so it's not like they can't bring a heavier game too. And then they have this guy Bickell guy I don't know how he does it but he has that Penner drama he always turn it on in the playfofs - and trust me I hate seeing this team being succesful - but they do have some grit, although Boston would slaughter them this year so that would be nice to see. Compared to teams like LA, Boston Chicago has more scoring and their top pairing is at least equal, when it comes down to goaltending it's not even a question Quick, Rask destroy Crawford without blinking an eye.

LA and Boston may not have that upfront firepower but they can play a heavier game than Chicago and shut them down. I think comparing the Wings to either of these teams wouldn't be fair but the point I'm trying to make is this:

Detroit doesn't have the upfront firepower anymore, the defense is a mess and goaltending is incosistent AND the current structured team can't play a heavier game, because well they just don't have the players to do it. And it's highly unlikely one of these 3 juggernauts will slow down in the near future, so if the Wings want the cup the road will be blocked by Boston.

There needs to be more of a balanced approach , because two things are for sure: we can't do anything about the goaltending nor match Chicagos upfront starpower but the defense can be improved and the team structured to at least bring a heavier game.

I know what you mean and I'm not saying these things because it's the flavour of the year no, like some other Wingsfans I've had this fear since we lost Downey and Dmac. Let's say Montreal, Colorado or another non-gritty team wins the cup this year it wouldn't change my point of view.

2. You are right about Shero and it will be interesting how he does when Crosby and Malkin are starting to slow down (yes Pensfans it will happen at some point !), but Lombardi didn't do it by tanking yes they've got Doughty but he also made some smart trades to get Richards, Carter and extend Quick to a steallike contract. Chiarelli took over the Bruins back when they were a mess he wanted them to play a different brand of hoceky and form the team that wa and dare I say it basically robbed Chara from Ottawa.

I've mentioned Poile because I think he would be a really great GM if he had a budget to work with that Erat > Forsberg trade really cemented him as one of the top GMs.

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The Wings have 2 directions they can go. They can go all in, trade a bunch of youth for guys who will help them win now, and end up with a lot less future depth. Or they can let the kids develop and Datsyuk and Zetterberg probably won't win another Cup in Detroit. If they try to go halfway and do both, I think they're going to end up being stuck in the middle of the pack.

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I would be legitimately happy if Holland did nothing else but sign Niskanen and let all the obvious free agents walk. You can always fill needs at the deadline, but I'd be perfectly happy going into next season with...

Z-Dats-Abby

Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist

Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco

Miller-Helm-Glendening

Kronwall-Ericsson

Niskenen-Dekeyser

Smith-Quellet

Sproul/Marchenko

Edit: Obviously the means trading Andersson, Kindl, and Lashoff for whatever you can get (not roster players).

Agreed. Although I'd also like a veteran 3rd line d man and alfie resigned, I'll be happy enough with your scenario.

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I would be legitimately happy if Holland did nothing else but sign Niskanen and let all the obvious free agents walk. You can always fill needs at the deadline, but I'd be perfectly happy going into next season with...

Z-Dats-Abby

Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist

Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco

Miller-Helm-Glendening

Kronwall-Ericsson

Niskenen-Dekeyser

Smith-Quellet

Sproul/Marchenko

Edit: Obviously the means trading Andersson, Kindl, and Lashoff for whatever you can get (not roster players).

I can't get behind this, if I have to sit through another year of Abby on the top line, I'm going to lose it.

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I can't get behind this, if I have to sit through another year of Abby on the top line, I'm going to lose it.

I share you concern, but he's not going anywhere and at least Dats would have Zetterberg so it's not like he wouldn't have a quality winger. I don't love Abby up there, but I don't see any realistic alternative either. Plus, you can always make a trade later.

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I share you concern, but he's not going anywhere and at least Dats would have Zetterberg so it's not like he wouldn't have a quality winger. I don't love Abby up there, but I don't see any realistic alternative either. Plus, you can always make a trade later.

Holmgren is known for awful trades, lets go after Simmonds lol

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I see a team that went from in the course of 5 years, being one of the safest bets to be a presidents cup and Stanley Cup winner to being a team that analysts can make a case for them missing the playoffs, or being first round fodder. Barely making the playoffs, then being bounced in 5 games isn't success, it's mediocrity. I am tired of it, I am tired of watching Holland every year putting together a team then blaming the fates for it failing. For the last three years it's been 'well if only X would have or wouldn't have happened...' and 'You just need to make the dance then anything can happen', it's starting to become plainly obvious the problem isn't luck, it's philosophy and it needs to change soon, or they will have multiple seasons where they don't make the dance. The Wings are not immune to the same ills that plague other teams, and I really don't want them to become like the Flames or Predators.

First off, Thank you for the civility in your argument.

I agree with you completely, but I think where we differ are the ways to go about it.

I want the wings to break the playoff streak, but I want to win cups during the remaining span.

I'd also love to be the first team to transition to the next era without needing to tank, or have a few first over all picks.

I take a lot of pride in the wings, and I'd take pride in these accomplishments.

But if we end up like the flames I'll be furious.

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Holmgren is known for awful trades, lets go after Simmonds lol

It'll never work, Holmgren only makes shockingly poor decisions when 30 goal forwards are involved (Richards, Carter, Lecavalier, Van Riemsdyk). Simmonds has only ever had 29. To think, one more goal and Holmgren would probably have shipped him to Detroit for Daniel Alfredsson's youth.

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Am I the only one that thinks Sheahan would do better on the 1st line than Abby? He played pretty good in front of the net this season and has shown he has good hands. Obviously I'd rather have a guy like Vanek or Moulson on the top line, but if we strike out on FA then I would give Sheahan a look on the top line.

Plays like these make me very curious as to how he could do with Z and Dats.

I'd like to run this lineup a couple games just to see what happens. We know Nyquist and Franzen have shown good chemistry so that line could score some goals if Weiss can get healthy. A third line of Tatar-Helm-Jurco would be FAST. They could really change the pace of the game. 4th line is probably the best checking line we could do with our current roster.

Z-Dats-Sheahan

Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist

Tatar-Helm-Jurco

Miller-Glendening-Abby

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you are all leaving out Almqvist, Callahan and Ferraro, who are ALL out of exemptions. Glendening is also now out of exemptions by 1 game. Trades ARE going to have to be made, so maybe there is a scenario that we make a nice deal at the draft for something we really need...

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Am I the only one that thinks Sheahan would do better on the 1st line than Abby? He played pretty good in front of the net this season and has shown he has good hands. Obviously I'd rather have a guy like Vanek or Moulson on the top line, but if we strike out on FA then I would give Sheahan a look on the top line.

Plays like these make me very curious as to how he could do with Z and Dats.

I'd like to run this lineup a couple games just to see what happens. We know Nyquist and Franzen have shown good chemistry so that line could score some goals if Weiss can get healthy. A third line of Tatar-Helm-Jurco would be FAST. They could really change the pace of the game. 4th line is probably the best checking line we could do with our current roster.

Z-Dats-Sheahan

Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist

Tatar-Helm-Jurco

Miller-Glendening-Abby

If we get NO free agents, and don't sign our own I think that's the best case scenario.

I'm less weary of putting sheahan on the wing than I am Weiss, but still.

I think we need to put the kids line back together.

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Am I the only one that thinks Sheahan would do better on the 1st line than Abby? He played pretty good in front of the net this season and has shown he has good hands. Obviously I'd rather have a guy like Vanek or Moulson on the top line, but if we strike out on FA then I would give Sheahan a look on the top line.

Plays like these make me very curious as to how he could do with Z and Dats.

I'd like to run this lineup a couple games just to see what happens. We know Nyquist and Franzen have shown good chemistry so that line could score some goals if Weiss can get healthy. A third line of Tatar-Helm-Jurco would be FAST. They could really change the pace of the game. 4th line is probably the best checking line we could do with our current roster.

AGREED. Sheahan is actually willing to play in front of the net and cycles really well with the puck - holds it well. Franzen doesn't go to the net much or work very hard and Abby doesn't possess the talent to keep up or contribute much to that line. If we had to move a C to wing to make room for Malykhin I think Sheahan would be a good option. I don't think Glendening is going to be a 4C on a cup winner - he should be a right wing with Helm. I think Mantha will likely make the team next year and take the wing with Z and Pavs though.

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Here is a chart of our depth right now at each position (I included players I think will likely make the NHL at each position within the next 2 years). In order to manage our assets we have to think about what we will do with these players before they run out of options. Signing UFA's just bumps these kids down the chart so we definitely can make a trade for an impact player or two. Players in brackets are current roster players I don't think should be here next year.

LW C RW

Zetterberg Datsyuk Franzen

Tatar Weiss Mantha

Abdelkader Sheahan Nyquist

Miller Helm Jurco

Glendening Pulkkinen

Ferraro Callahan

(Andersson)

LD RD

Kronwall Marchenko

Ericsson Sproul

Dekeyser

Smith

Ouellet

Backman

Almquist

(Kindl)

(Lashoff)

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I think Shero will trade Letang instead of letting Niskenen go.

Anyone who's watched the playoffs and is willing to pick up Letang's contract has no business being an NHL General Manager. But I'm sure he'll try.

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I share you concern, but he's not going anywhere and at least Dats would have Zetterberg so it's not like he wouldn't have a quality winger. I don't love Abby up there, but I don't see any realistic alternative either. Plus, you can always make a trade later.

Oh yeah Abby is here to stay, I'm just hoping that Holland goes out and signs Moulson or Vanek- I know wishful thinking- and Abby moves to the bottom six where he would do the most good.

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