kipwinger 8,522 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) What we really need is a top end defenceman... Kronner is a solid #2, or a fantastic #3... What he isn't is a #1 d-man. I know I'll get slammed for this BUT... I think the Wings should fire an offer sheet off to PK Subban. Max money, max years with as many poision pills as Montreal can swallow. If nothing else it will "cost" a division rival some cash. Wouldn't they then have all the incentive in the world to do the same with Tatar, Dekeyser, and Sheahan? They could end up costing us just as much as we'd "cost" them and neither of the teams would have anything to show for it other than a player they were going to sign anyway. Which is why GMs (other than that monkey Paul Holmgren) don't ever do it. Edited June 13, 2014 by kipwinger 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amato 3,210 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 Wouldn't they then have all the incentive in the world to do the same with Tatar, Dekeyser, and Sheahan? They could end up costing us just as much as we'd "cost" them and neither of the teams would have anything to show for it. Which is why GMs (other than that monkey Paul Holmgren) don't ever do it. just gotta sign them before the offer sheet Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 We desperately need immediate help on the back end. Why not make up a package of 3 or 4 of the following (depending on who we'd be getting in the deal), Tomas Tatar, Jakub Kindl, Xavier Oulette and this years first round pick, for a capable top 3/4 defenseman (preferably a right handed shot)? Who would we be able to get in a trade package such as this? Obviously some of the names such as, Shea Weber, Drew Doughty, Brent Seabrook, Alex Pietrangelo, John Carlson, P.K. Subban, Erik Karlsson would be out of the question right off the bat. But what about someone along the lines of, Erik Johnson, Dustin Byfuglien, Kevin Shattenkirk, Mike Green, Cody Franson, Dan Girardi, Johnny Boychuk, Kevin Bieksa, James Wisniewski, Jacob Trouba, Justin Schultz, Dougie Hamilton. Toronto and Boston probably wouldn't trade with us, being division rivals, so there goes Franson, Boychuk and Hamilton. I'm not a huge fan of Byfuglien or Wisniewski but what about one of the others? Surely one of those guys would have to be attainable with such a package... I'd like to see something like this... Kronwall - Ericsson DeKeyser - Johnson Smith - Sproul / Marchenko / Backman Lashoff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 4,958 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 Phillies? 1 kipwinger reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DeGraa55 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 Wouldn't they then have all the incentive in the world to do the same with Tatar, Dekeyser, and Sheahan? They could end up costing us just as much as we'd "cost" them and neither of the teams would have anything to show for it other than a player they were going to sign anyway. Which is why GMs (other than that monkey Paul Holmgren) don't ever do it. Difference we offer 8m to subban they actually have to think about it if they counter or not. They offer 8m to any of our RFA we just lol and say GOOD LUCK. The real struggle would be if they offer say 4m 7 years to Tatar and Sheahan. Would we wanna match or not(if the player signs their offer of course). Phillies? Philly's be better? Lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mackel 681 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 Wouldn't they then have all the incentive in the world to do the same with Tatar, Dekeyser, and Sheahan? They could end up costing us just as much as we'd "cost" them and neither of the teams would have anything to show for it other than a player they were going to sign anyway. Which is why GMs (other than that monkey Paul Holmgren) don't ever do it. They could do that yes, but they would then have good players signed for more than they're worth... While we'd have a superstar signed to top end money. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,522 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 Difference we offer 8m to subban they actually have to think about it if they counter or not. They offer 8m to any of our RFA we just lol and say GOOD LUCK. The real struggle would be if they offer say 4m 7 years to Tatar and Sheahan. Would we wanna match or not(if the player signs their offer of course). 8 million is only slightly more than what Subban will likely get. Probably about a half million dollars a year more than his market worth. If they offer sheeted Tatar and Dekeyser at 3.5 million and Sheahan at 2.5 million they'd be doing us just as much harm as we'd be doing them by offering Subban 8. Offer sheets are largely useless for this exact reason. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DeGraa55 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) 8 million is only slightly more than what Subban will likely get. Probably about a half million dollars a year more than his market worth. If they offer sheeted Tatar and Dekeyser at 3.5 million and Sheahan at 2.5 million they'd be doing us just as much harm as we'd be doing them by offering Subban 8. Offer sheets are largely useless for this exact reason. See I disagree if they offered them that low of money for 7 years and dekeyser for example was stupid enough to sign that we would be jumping for joy. Having him signed for that cheap.... Edited June 13, 2014 by DeGraa55 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,522 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 See I disagree if they offered them that low of money for 7 years and dekeyser for example was stupid enough to sign that we would be jumping for joy. Having him signed for that cheap.... If you don't understand the points I'm making then I don't know how to be more clear. GMs don't do offer sheets because then other GMs would do the same back to them. There's a reason why every armchair GM thinks it's a good idea and every real GM (aside from the aforementioned Holmgren) doesn't. If we offersheeted Subban, the next couple of years would get REALLY expensive in Detroit. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mackel 681 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 The logic of using an offersheet is sound... if someone tries to punish you by overpaying a player don't match... take the draft picks and laugh at them for being cap strapped. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mackel 681 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 If you don't understand the points I'm making then I don't know how to be more clear. GMs don't do offer sheets because then other GMs would do the same back to them. There's a reason why every armchair GM thinks it's a good idea and every real GM (aside from the aforementioned Holmgren) doesn't. If we offersheeted Subban, the next couple of years would get REALLY expensive in Detroit. Have the Flyers had a retaliatory offer sheet sent to a player? No, didn't think so. Sincerely, Arm Chair GM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,522 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 The logic of using an offersheet is sound... if someone tries to punish you by overpaying a player don't match... take the draft picks and laugh at them for being cap strapped. But the same can be said of the initial offer. If we sent an offer sheet for Subban and it was a really good deal, Montreal would match it. If it was a really bad deal, they'd give him to us on a really bad deal or they'd match it and then force us to overpay the same amount by raising the price of our RFAs (slightly) through offer sheets. I don't know why I need to keep making this point. If the logic was so sound then people would do it. Since it rarely happens I'd say there's less utility in it then you're suggesting. Either that or almost every GM in the league (including our own) is a fool who doesn't see something so obvious. I'm not buying it. Have the Flyers had a retaliatory offer sheet sent to a player? No, didn't think so. Sincerely, Arm Chair GM Well that's one in a row for you. The possibility is what stops it from happening. Surely I don't have to explain how deterrents work. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mackel 681 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 But the same can be said of the initial offer. If we sent an offer sheet for Subban and it was a really good deal, Montreal would match it. If it was a really bad deal, they'd give him to us on a really bad deal or they'd match it and then force us to overpay the same amount by raising the price of our RFAs (slightly) through offer sheets. I don't know why I need to keep making this point. If the logic was so sound then people would do it. Since it rarely happens I'd say there's less utility in it then you're suggesting. Either that or almost every GM in the league (including our own) is a fool who doesn't see something so obvious. I'm not buying it. Well that's one in a row for you. The possibility is what stops it from happening. Surely I don't have to explain how deterrents work. GMs don't use this option very often, my point is to get a player of that caliber... our GM should strongly consider doing it. No matter what consequences you can dream up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,522 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) GMs don't use this option very often, my point is to get a player of that caliber... our GM should strongly consider doing it. No matter what consequences you can dream up. In the last 16 years, it's only been attempted 9 times. That's out of hundreds or thousands of potential RFAs during that period. The offer sheet has been matched in every instance but 1 (Dustin Penner). This includes attempted offer sheets on players of "that caliber" like Kesler, Weber, Vanek, Backes, and Fedorov. Apparently GMs should "strongly consider" something which happens a handful of times for every hundred or thousand RFAs, and only succeeds 1 out of 9 times when it is tried. Definitely a good use of their time. With moves like that we could have a Dustin Penner on our hands in no time. You should send an email to Ken Holland. I'm sure the reason he doesn't ever do it is because he's not aware of what a good idea it is, and not because it's unlikely to work and has many (potentially) negative consequences. Edited June 13, 2014 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DeGraa55 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 But the same can be said of the initial offer. If we sent an offer sheet for Subban and it was a really good deal, Montreal would match it. If it was a really bad deal, they'd give him to us on a really bad deal or they'd match it and then force us to overpay the same amount by raising the price of our RFAs (slightly) through offer sheets. I don't know why I need to keep making this point. If the logic was so sound then people would do it. Since it rarely happens I'd say there's less utility in it then you're suggesting. Either that or almost every GM in the league (including our own) is a fool who doesn't see something so obvious. I'm not buying it. Well that's one in a row for you. The possibility is what stops it from happening. Surely I don't have to explain how deterrents work. You're trying to make a TERRIBKE point. Cause the I've time it has happened both things you said DIDNT HAPPEN. Nashville didn't just let Philly have him with his bad contract(which it is) they still signed him AND no one has tried to punish Philly. So again if you're going to prove a point maybe use examples THAT ACTUALLY HAVE HAPPENED. I do understand what you're saying in some GMS are just plain scared which I agree with. Look at holland he is so scared to make any sort of medium size move just to tiny stuff. By the way....I'm not hoping for this to happen lol. I like subban but I'm sure Montreal would match anyways. In the last 16 years, it's only been attempted 9 times. That's out of hundreds or thousands of potential RFAs during that period. The offer sheet has been matched in every instance but 1 (Dustin Penner). This includes attempted offer sheets on players of "that caliber" like Kesler, Weber, Vanek, Backes, and Fedorov. Apparently GMs should "strongly consider" something which happens a handful of times for every hundred or thousand RFAs, and only succeeds 1 out of 9 times when it is tried. Definitely a good use of their time. With moves like that we could have a Dustin Penner on our hands in no time. You should send an email to Ken Holland. I'm sure the reason he doesn't ever do it is because he's not aware of what a good idea it is, and not because it's unlikely to work and has many (potentially) negative consequences. Again the "potentially negative consequences" NEVER have happened.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 Have the Flyers had a retaliatory offer sheet sent to a player? No, didn't think so. Sincerely, Arm Chair GM The Predators will also never make a trade with the Flyers. Offer sheets don't work and they close doors to do future business. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DeGraa55 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 The Predators will also never make a trade with the Flyers. Offer sheets don't work and they close doors to do future business. Who is winning the Super Bowl next year in going to go bet my life savings....apparently you can see the future. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,522 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 Again the "potentially negative consequences" NEVER have happened.... Which is why I said they're POTENTIALLY negative. I'm glad you got to the bottom of that mystery. Offersheets almost never work, and when they do it's for marginal talent. Because of this they aren't worth the potentially negative consequences. You keep talking about Weber as if something was accomplished by the offer sheet. All it did was drive up his contract, astronomically overinflate the value of franchise defensemen, and piss off another GM who you will likely have to deal with again one day. Whether Poile immediately responded to Philly is irrelevant. The point is that Nashville was always going to match the offer. Philly was never getting Weber. So why put yourself in a position where negative consequences COULD happen if there's almost zero percent chance the offer sheet will work? Same with Montreal. They'll match any offer on Subban within reason. So the only outcomes are, you get Subban on an unreasonable contract, or you don't get him and potentially have negative things happen (in addition to driving up prices which will ultimately harm you as well). There's no scenario where we get Subban on an offer sheet for a reasonable contract. None. So why do it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DeGraa55 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 Which is why I said they're POTENTIALLY negative. I'm glad you got to the bottom of that mystery. Offersheets almost never work, and when they do it's for marginal talent. Because of this they aren't worth the potentially negative consequences. You keep talking about Weber as if something was accomplished by the offer sheet. All it did was drive up his contract, astronomically overinflate the value of franchise defensemen, and piss off another GM who you will likely have to deal with again one day. Whether Poile immediately responded to Philly is irrelevant. The point is that Nashville was always going to match the offer. Philly was never getting Weber. So why put yourself in a position where negative consequences COULD happen if there's almost zero percent chance the offer sheet will work? Same with Montreal. They'll match any offer on Subban within reason. So the only outcomes are, you get Subban on an unreasonable contract, or you don't get him and potentially have negative things happen (in addition to driving up prices which will ultimately harm you as well). There's no scenario where we get Subban on an offer sheet for a reasonable contract. None. So why do it? Cause there is NO SHOT at us getting subban any other way. So you offer a little high and if(when most likely) Montreal matches it hurts then more than us. And they're a division rival they're not likely to deal with us anyways. I like the idea of offer sheets and if a team has cap issues driving up a players salary like that could have some affects in them. Hockey is a business not a friggen friendship love orgy. You have to puss a few people off now and then. But that's the only way Detroit would have a shot at gettin subban same thing with phiy and weber. But like I said before I'm not in favor of us doing this just stating that side if the argument. But as history has shown the worst that can happen? You lose 4 draft picks and gain a superstar?? Damn that must suck LOL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,207 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 If I'm Bergevin, I do whatever it takes to keep P.K. Subban a Montreal Canadien for as long as possible. Give him the moon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 4,958 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 Difference we offer 8m to subban they actually have to think about it if they counter or not. They offer 8m to any of our RFA we just lol and say GOOD LUCK. The real struggle would be if they offer say 4m 7 years to Tatar and Sheahan. Would we wanna match or not(if the player signs their offer of course). Philly's be better? Lol lol! Just waiting for the first news outlet to report on the Sacramento Kings winning the Cup! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nawein 324 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comments/two-czech-newspapers-report-that-the-red-wings-will-sign-tomas-nosek-to-an?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter Not sure if this is worthy of it's own thread yet. Apparently we're close to signing Tomas Nosek outnof a Czech league. Anyone know anything about this guy? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Z Winged Dangler 2,082 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 Bringing in Brodeur as a back up would be the best goalie coach Howard will ever get. He may even learn how to play the puck... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 Are people actually serious about offer sheets? I don't get how you guys are arguing what Kip is saying... Everything he has said is completely accurate. There is no point in offer sheeting a player. There is no way we would get him without ridiculously overpaying. And the most important thing... There is absolutely ZERO chance Mr. Ken Holland offer sheets any player. He knows it is bad business and why make enemies when it accomplishes absolutely nothing. 2 wings4thecup06 and e_prime reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,207 Report post Posted June 13, 2014 Are people actually serious about offer sheets? I don't get how you guys are arguing what Kip is saying... Everything he has said is completely accurate. There is no point in offer sheeting a player. There is no way we would get him without ridiculously overpaying. And the most important thing... There is absolutely ZERO chance Mr. Ken Holland offer sheets any player. He knows it is bad business and why make enemies when it accomplishes absolutely nothing. To be fair, Kenny was considering considering (not a typo) offer-sheeting Weber. But I guess Weber made it pretty clear that he wasn't keen on becoming a Wing, i.e. "You can shoot me an offer, but I'm not signing it. So...don't." Or maybe Poile just told him to back the f*** off or else he'd steal Jarnkrok, and then he stole Jarnkrok anyway, just cuz. But yeah. Unless you've got some kind of legitimate inside track on the guy, and he's unequivocally worth the trouble, don't go there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
