Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

[frankgrimes 1,836]

I'd love to have Greene on the Wings as a bottom pairing guy. Very physical, great character guy, plays a lot of PK minutes. He and Ericsson out there would be a force to contend with.

He's been a healthy scratch for the Kings few games this season, so maybe he'd be looking for a change. I don't know that him being a RH shot helps a ton because he's not going to contribute on offense, and he'd have to take a pay cut.

I like that thought, never hurts to add another good ol hardworking Michigan boy to the lineup. At this point, I would be very happy with a pure shutdown D man who is willing to play physical and clear the front of the net. He would be a perfect fit in that regard and also doesn't cost a kings ransom.

Dreaming about Vanek is nice but honestly, I think he is Minnesotta bound this is just way to similar to the Suter/Parise situation. If not Minny, then Pittsburgh which doesn't help them a lot because they need defense

[dirtydangles 1,328]

Vanek 5years 8per is an ideal move. I know we dont need forwards but it frees up an asset like jurco to get a dman via trade. Truth is - our youth will make us attractive just like the pens. Its nice to be on a team on the upswing. I only want to move assets if its for the perfect dman for us and that would mean a trade.

[Dabura 12,207]

I would like to introduce a concept. I call it "(t)rolling four lines." Say you have four lines which all kick ass, on paper and on the ice. If any two of your bottom-sixers together = $10M or more in cap space, it's likely you be trollin'. Basically, a top twelve with an illegal bottom six. Example:

Henrik Zetterberg Pavel Datsyuk Tomas Jurco

Johan Franzen Stephen Weiss Gustav Nyquist

Matt Moulson Riley Sheahan Tomas Tatar

Justin Abdelkader Darren Helm Daniel Alfredsson

(Miller Andersson)

It sounded much more awesome in my head.

[Richdg 267]

Z-the only guy that I moved from that group was Nyquist and that was to fill another major need. BTW tinky is Sheahan.......

Buppy-all those games missed by our top 6/7 forwards are only going to get worse. The lack of size, age, and history of inuries by that group will not get better as they get another year older, only worse. That is very much part of our issue.

[Buppy 1,720]

...

Buppy-all those games missed by our top 6/7 forwards are only going to get worse. The lack of size, age, and history of inuries by that group will not get better as they get another year older, only worse. That is very much part of our issue.

That's pretty pessimistic. It is far more likely that our injuries this year are anomolous. While players may suffer more injuries and take longer to recover on average as they get older, it's unlikely to be a linear progression where each year is worse than the year before. Furthermore, I was including Nyquist and Tatar in that quantity, neither of which were due to injuries. Weiss is also not all that old, and has generally been fairly healthy. Alfredsson is the one likely to be replaced. Hank, prior to this year, has been healthier in his 30s than he was in his 20s. While Datsyuk has had some trouble in recent years, he only missed one game last year. Franzen is the only one I'd be particularly concerned about, because of the concussion history.

However, even if we assume the injuries will get worse, that's no less true if we sign Vanek (who's already 30, so with this logic we'd need to be concerned about his health soon). So again, if our situation is so dire without Vanek, it's not all that rosy with him, even if you think Jurco is the only alternative.

Of course he's not the only alternative though. There's likely to be several other options good for 20-25 goals or more. If we want to be as optimistic about some other guys as you are about Vanek, we could say there's a handful with 30+ potential.

Vanek is far from a necessity. Personally, I think someone will offer him something similar to Getzlaf/Perry. 7 years at $8M or so. And I wouldn't be too surprised to see someone go even higher. I think getting him for less than 7 years will cost a very significant premium, unless he wants to go the Hossa route. I don't see any of those scenarios being very favorable to the Wings. We'd probably be better off aiming for one or two of the lower-on-the-radar guys like a Setoguchi, Vrbata, or Raymond. Or try to turn Kulemin into a scorer. Add more assets so we have the flexibility to try to flip some for defensive help.

Bottom line, of course give Vanek a call, but if we miss out it's not that big a deal.

[TheXym 2,606]

I wouldn't necessarily call this year's injury run an anomaly. http://www.mangameslost.com/end-of-regular-season-nhl-man-games-lost-april-28-2013/.

That site shows 243 man-games lost for the Wings in the shortened season last year, prorating to over 400 in an 82 game season.

The previous two seasons were in the mid-200's, and middle of the pack, league-wise. I remember one point where the salary of our guys on the IR was close to the cap floor.

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

Vanek is going to be a sweepstakes much like Suter

I was so heartbroken when we didn't get him. Never taking writers insider information seriously again

Aren't the writers saying that Vanek wants to go to Minnesota to play with Pominville again? It appears Minnesota is the place to be these days.

Z-the only guy that I moved from that group was Nyquist and that was to fill another major need. BTW tinky is Sheahan.......

Buppy-all those games missed by our top 6/7 forwards are only going to get worse. The lack of size, age, and history of inuries by that group will not get better as they get another year older, only worse. That is very much part of our issue.

That was another brainfart typo. But realistically, I'll take Sheahan and his alter ego and keep em' both on the team. We either need to get Stuart or Greene for this team or hope that next year Marchenko comes up and keeps his game at the NHL level consistently.

[Buppy 1,720]

I wouldn't necessarily call this year's injury run an anomaly. http://www.mangameslost.com/end-of-regular-season-nhl-man-games-lost-april-28-2013/.

That site shows 243 man-games lost for the Wings in the shortened season last year, prorating to over 400 in an 82 game season.

The previous two seasons were in the mid-200's, and middle of the pack, league-wise. I remember one point where the salary of our guys on the IR was close to the cap floor.

Injuries, in the general sense, are not an anomoly. But injuries (major injuries costing more than a few game at least) to specific players almost always are. There are few players with particularly bad luck or some condition that's likely lead to recurrent injury.

Case in point in last year. The majority of our games lost came from Helm, Bert, Sammy, and Cola. All 4 players have been healthier this year, with only Helm missing any real time.

While we will certainly have injuries next year, it will probably be some different players, and probably not so many important ones all at the same time. All that being beside the point though. Point is Vanek wouldn't have any impact on our injuriy situation.

[TheXym 2,606]

The majority of the injuries the Wings have had recently are longer term, though I don't have a link to a list. When there are 5 of the listed top six forwards out, like at times this year, or a couple of years ago when there was enough salary on the IR to reach the cap floor, it is difficult. It seems the injury bug has been rampant at times. It may work out to averaging 2-3 man games lost per game for the season, but when it is hitting multiple "key" players at once, it's harder to weather. Some players are a bigger loss than others, and that is also a factor to consider. I think most would agree Pav and Z on the LTIR wold be much more damaging than say, Eaves and Miller (or some of the other older vets piled on regularly).

Pittsburgh had 5 of their top 6 D out earlier this year, but were able to get by due to being relatively healthy up front where their team strength lies. The Wings were decimated up front, where their strength normally is, and there wasn't enough to offset it.

[Richdg 267]

Buppy, we do have several guys with long term injury issues. Z had a bad back that will be with him the rest of his career, gradually getting worse. helm with his lack of size and style of play is always going to miss games. Not sure if he is a guy that can be counted on for more than 65 games per season. Datsyuk is 35 and has been trending in the more games lost due to injury direction. been a long time since he played over 70 games-2009/10 was the last time. Since then he has played 56 games, 70 games, 47 games-lockout year, and this year he has already missed 15+ games. That is his future as well. Franzen has already had 3 or 4 consussions and we not sure if he will ever play again as of today. The % of athletes in all sports that get retired after 5 concussions is very very high-like over 90%.

The danger we face now is, if we stand pat and guys go down to injury again-which they will, there is no NHL ready talent in GR to replace them. It is all in Detroit already. Maybe mantha will be ready at some point next year, and who else? Pulk maybe. That is only 2. Everyone else will be in Detroit.

[PumpkinEscobar 136]

Hey need to give those guys a chance to see if they're ready. I'd rather them give Callahan or Pulkkinen or any of those guts a game or so instead of putting Bert, Cleary, or Sammy back in there. Some of the Griffins could end being big surprises.

[joesuffP 1,746]

Aren't the writers saying that Vanek wants to go to Minnesota to play with Pominville again? It appears Minnesota is the place to be these days.

That was another brainfart typo. But realistically, I'll take Sheahan and his alter ego and keep em' both on the team. We either need to get Stuart or Greene for this team or hope that next year Marchenko comes up and keeps his game at the NHL level consistently.

Early into free agency a lot were saying Detroit was his #1 I thought it was in the bag and as time went on it became clear we weren't getting him. I was already drawing up lines

[dragonballgtz 273]

Tatar + 2nd pick + salary guy to get Luke Shenn

Edited February 9, 2014 by dragonballgtz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Tatar + 2nd pick + salary guy to get Luke Shenn

Holmgren wouldn't want to breakup the set. It's have to be a 3 team trade with Boston so he could get Brendan and Reilly Smith in exchange for Luke and Brayden Schenn.

[Richdg 267]

Pumpkin, yes. I don't want any of our UFA's brought back. all are old or broken or limited athletes. But that isn't vanek. He is a 4 or 5 year bridge to future waves of young guys. No I do not want to trade for him either. Rentals are bad ideas in the best of times, which we currently are not having. Go ask tigers fans about the Smotlz for Alexander trade. been 20+ years are we still ***** about. Even though alexander helped them to the PO's, giving up a HOF hurts a lot.....

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Pumpkin, yes. I don't want any of our UFA's brought back. all are old or broken or limited athletes. But that isn't vanek. He is a 4 or 5 year bridge to future waves of young guys. No I do not want to trade for him either. Rentals are bad ideas in the best of times, which we currently are not having. Go ask tigers fans about the Smotlz for Alexander trade. been 20+ years are we still ***** about. Even though alexander helped them to the PO's, giving up a HOF hurts a lot.....

The problem is it looks like he wants a 7 year deal.

[Buppy 1,720]

Buppy, we do have several guys with long term injury issues. Z had a bad back that will be with him the rest of his career, gradually getting worse. helm with his lack of size and style of play is always going to miss games. Not sure if he is a guy that can be counted on for more than 65 games per season. Datsyuk is 35 and has been trending in the more games lost due to injury direction. been a long time since he played over 70 games-2009/10 was the last time. Since then he has played 56 games, 70 games, 47 games-lockout year, and this year he has already missed 15+ games. That is his future as well. Franzen has already had 3 or 4 consussions and we not sure if he will ever play again as of today. The % of athletes in all sports that get retired after 5 concussions is very very high-like over 90%.

The danger we face now is, if we stand pat and guys go down to injury again-which they will, there is no NHL ready talent in GR to replace them. It is all in Detroit already. Maybe mantha will be ready at some point next year, and who else? Pulk maybe. That is only 2. Everyone else will be in Detroit.

And if that's true, it's also true with Vanek. You act like we'll be a terrible team, like it will take a miracle to avoid getting shut out 82 times, if we don't get him, but we'll be some top contender if we do. It's absurd. Whatever we'll be, we'd be at most a little bit better with Vanek. You're being irrationally optimistic about Vanek, and irrationally pessimistic about everything else.

And I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that the only two options are Vanek or stand pat. Believe it or not there are alternatives. The uncertainty you're so anxious about is all the more reason to maintain some flexibility with the roster. To sign a couple guys for cheaper and leave Jurco and Glenny in GR, while holding some cap in reserve. To keep ourselves open for opportunities beyond next summer, for wholesale changes if we decide we need to go that route.

[PumpkinEscobar 136]

Meanwhile Mantha has a 2 goal 3 assist game to up his total to 47 goals and 50 assists

[Richdg 267]

Bumpy, we have plenty of cap to do both. yes vanek is the only star out there. maybe he is 100% stuck on 7 years, if so then no don't sign him. Most of the "rumors" I have seen have been 7 years 50-55 million to sign him. Sell him on 5 years 45 million, then he has time to get another decent 3 year deal-with some other team, after that. That means more money for him.

You talk about sending Jurco back down, not sure we will be able to do so next year. Replace him with whom? Ok sign another journeyman-that has worked really good to date right? Cleary, bert, Sammy, tootoo etc..... We don't need average or below, we need stars. Again we have the money to do it! 16-20 million to spend after we resign our RFA's, depending what happens with Franzen.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

The thought of giving Vanek that much money makes me ill. The last 3 years his 82 game pace was 30g 71 pts or something close to that. Even at a point a game he's not with close to that much.

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Alfewdsson/Jurco/Moulson

Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist

Tatar-Helm-Sheahan

Miller-Andersson-Abdelkader

Callahan-Ferraro/Glendening as reserves

That looks pretty good to me with what Tatar and Nyquist are showing. They don't need to give Vanek the second highest cap hit and 6th highest salary in the NHL.

[Richdg 267]

DD, let me get this straight. You are ok with paying 41 year old Alfie 5.5 million per year, and not pay vanek? Even though Vanek has produced twice as much as Alfie the last 3 years.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

DD, let me get this straight. You are ok with paying 41 year old Alfie 5.5 million per year, and not pay vanek? Even though Vanek has produced twice as much as Alfie the last 3 years.

I would rather have Alfredsson for 1 year at 5 mil than pay Vanek anywhere close to 9 mil per for any length of time, yes. That is a ridiculous overpayment. Vanek is a good scorer, but not that good.

[Buppy 1,720]

Bumpy, we have plenty of cap to do both. yes vanek is the only star out there. maybe he is 100% stuck on 7 years, if so then no don't sign him. Most of the "rumors" I have seen have been 7 years 50-55 million to sign him. Sell him on 5 years 45 million, then he has time to get another decent 3 year deal-with some other team, after that. That means more money for him.

You talk about sending Jurco back down, not sure we will be able to do so next year. Replace him with whom? Ok sign another journeyman-that has worked really good to date right? Cleary, bert, Sammy, tootoo etc..... We don't need average or below, we need stars. Again we have the money to do it! 16-20 million to spend after we resign our RFA's, depending what happens with Franzen.

$16 million, which I think could be a little optimistic, really isn't that much when you're talking about paying $9M to one guy. But the cap isn't really my issue. We look like we should be in good shape for the next few years in that regard. My issue isn't even "Don't sign Vanek". My issue is this ridiculous false dilema you're creating where every alternative sucks, like we're teetering on the edge of oblivion and Vanek is the only thing that could possibly save us.

We don't need stars. We have stars. Most teams, most Cup teams even, don't have more than a few real stars. (And if we do have a need, it's on defense.) You just don't believe we can depend on the stars we have, even if you don't want to admit it. Problem is, if we can't, then Vanek won't save us. Vanek can't carry a team. If we're going to be successful, Pav, Hank, the secondary scoring, the defense, Jimmy...all have to be good. You seem to have this idea that that will all be true if we add Vanek, but all be false if we don't.

And really, Cleary, Bert, or Sammy are the other options? Really?

Alfie, Jagr, Iginla, Moulson, Gaborik, Heatley, Stastny, Boyes, Raymond, Setoguchi, Vrbata, Kulemin, either Jokinen, Bolland, Cammalleri, Michalek...I'm sure there's more. Of course not all of them will be available, or have a good price/term, or be a great fit...but there are options between Vanek and Sammy. Some may be better options than Vanek.

Personally, I like Seto and Kulemin. Go for depth over power at the top. Either or both really click, it should open up some options to trade for defense. They, or the team in general, struggle we should still have some trade flexibility. Should also be able to accrue some cap space to add a rental or two at the deadline, if the situation warrants. Over-commit to Vanek and things don't go well, probably won't have many options to fix it.

[joesuffP 1,746]

I wouldn't mind if we acquired Vanek, even if it is an overpayment. I just want to see this team take a step in the right direction

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Vanek at 9 mill per ? No way he isn't the difference between a cup and non cup. He turned down 50million over 7 years from the Islanders, so the least amount of aav will be around 7,5 per But the fact of the matter is, he doesn't fix our defensive needs. I'd rather go above that and sign Callahan + Girardi in the ballpark of 11 - 12 million, the may not be as good as Vanek they are fixing two needs for slightly more money.