Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

[marcaractac 3,962]

I would be legitimately happy if Holland did nothing else but sign Niskanen and let all the obvious free agents walk. You can always fill needs at the deadline, but I'd be perfectly happy going into next season with...

Z-Dats-Abby

Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist

Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco

Miller-Helm-Glendening

Kronwall-Ericsson

Niskenen-Dekeyser

Smith-Quellet

Sproul/Marchenko

Edit: Obviously the means trading Andersson, Kindl, and Lashoff for whatever you can get (not roster players).

Totally agree. I do hope Alfie plays one more year as I do think he would be a huge impact in the playoffs when healthy. Of course not having to fight for their playoff lives because of god awful goaltending in the first half of the season would go a long way in helping a guy like Alife get rest when needed.

[wings7 62]

How do you know this? All of a sudden, Holland not only sucks, but he's not "competitive"? Unreal.

Also, Bowman was a terrible GM who wanted to trade Yzerman for Yashin. Either you knew this and chose to ignore, or you're really not informed enough on the issue to have a credible option.

Don't try to call someone out when you don't even know that BOWMAN WAS A COACH!

Also, don't put down Bowman. All he ever does is win.

Montreal.

Pittsburgh.

Detroit.

Chicago.

Well I certainly agree with the second half of your post. But I'm actually a Holland fan. That doesn't mean I don't think he makes mistakes from time to time, he does, but usually his mistakes don't end up crippling the team in any serious way. Think of all his big "mistakes" e.g. Sammy, Tootoo, Quincey, bringing Cleary back, and then think about other people's big mistakes and you immediately feel better. He could have signed David Clarkson to a 5.2 million dollar contract for 7 years, given Ryane Clowe 4.8 million for 5 years despite his history of concussions, or traded away Mike Richards and Jeff Carter and Sergei Bobrovsky and James Van Riemsdyk for Wayne Simmonds/Jakub Voracek/ the Schenn brothers and some picks.

In the end, Holland's really done a pretty good job.

I hear you man, I really do. I just honestly disagree and think Holland has some horrific moves you are forgetting.

Quincey for a 1st Rounder.

Legwand for a great prospect.

Franzen over Hossa.

Howard for 5.

All the players who never played this year.

Weiss so far is a bust.

[wings87 1,290]

Well I certainly agree with the second half of your post. But I'm actually a Holland fan. That doesn't mean I don't think he makes mistakes from time to time, he does, but usually his mistakes don't end up crippling the team in any serious way. Think of all his big "mistakes" e.g. Sammy, Tootoo, Quincey, bringing Cleary back, and then think about other people's big mistakes and you immediately feel better. He could have signed David Clarkson to a 5.2 million dollar contract for 7 years, given Ryane Clowe 4.8 million for 5 years despite his history of concussions, or traded away Mike Richards and Jeff Carter and Sergei Bobrovsky and James Van Riemsdyk for Wayne Simmonds/Jakub Voracek/ the Schenn brothers and some picks.

In the end, Holland's really done a pretty good job.

I feel like most GM'S are cyclical, usually they make some bad moves followed by some good moves and round and round it goes. Holland's issue has been that lately he's been lacking in good moves, and while you'r right he hasn't done anything crippling, he's hurt the team in other ways. Like wasting cap and roster spots on unworthy players, he also seems to have lost the midas touch in luring top flight UFA's. It's become strange that no top free agent wants to take the Wings money-maybe they're not offering enough?-I don't know... I don't advocate firing him, because who would the Wings get that was better? Sooner or later the fan base would turn on the new GM anyway. I would however like to see Holland get his head out of the sand and join the real world, he's got to realize his moves lately have been beyond atrocious; he's got to get off his hands and finally upgrade the D along with finding a scoring winger for Pav-while Pav is still at the top of his game.

[marcaractac 3,962]

Holland and Babs pretty much confirmed their desire to add a RH shot on the back end, and that most changes to the team will be done from within. The right move, IMO. Fingers crossed for Niskanen!

Very glad the whole signing an aging veteran to patch up the team seems to finally be in the past. A lot of the kids have already done some winning together. They just need the time and opportunity to bring that to the next level.

Edited April 29, 2014 by marcaractac

[marcaractac 3,962]

Detroit Red Wings ‏@DetroitRedWings 13s

"If Anthony Mantha is ready and he beats somebody out, he'll play in the National Hockey League." - Ken Holland

[wings87 1,290]

Detroit Red Wings ‏@DetroitRedWings 13s

"If Anthony Mantha is ready and he beats somebody out, he'll play in the National Hockey League." - Ken Holland

The question I would have is how high would the bar be set for Mantha to beat someone out?

[kipwinger 8,520]

I feel like most GM'S are cyclical, usually they make some bad moves followed by some good moves and round and round it goes. Holland's issue has been that lately he's been lacking in good moves, and while you'r right he hasn't done anything crippling, he's hurt the team in other ways. Like wasting cap and roster spots on unworthy players, he also seems to have lost the midas touch in luring top flight UFA's. It's become strange that no top free agent wants to take the Wings money-maybe they're not offering enough?-I don't know... I don't advocate firing him, because who would the Wings get that was better? Sooner or later the fan base would turn on the new GM anyway. I would however like to see Holland get his head out of the sand and join the real world, he's got to realize his moves lately have been beyond atrocious; he's got to get off his hands and finally upgrade the D along with finding a scoring winger for Pav-while Pav is still at the top of his game.

I definitely agree with some of the things you've said. For instance, Holland is notoriously stingy when it comes time to make offers to free agents (remember Wisniewski's 'market value' comment). But I don't think his moves have been as bad as people think. Hindsight has shown that some of them haven't worked out, but who could have known at the time. For instance, it's easy to say that he doesn't attract top flight FA's, but Weiss and Alfie were both at the top of their respective FA cohorts. Likewise, the Quincey move is generally considered bad. But prior to coming back he'd been playing top four minutes and scoring around 30 pts. a season. And he was young and still had development potential. Easily worth a first at the time. With Legwand I'd generally agree we overpaid, but Poile had us over a barrel and we knew it. Even then, we were still getting a very good two way center capable of putting up good numbers. It's mindblogging how he was used, but that's not his fault. Tootoo? Same deal as Legwand. They both just did what they do, no knock on their game.

The two worst things that Holland did recently were bring back Cleary and give Sammy a No Trade Clause. The first is defensible because Babs and the team leadership intervened on Cleary's behalf. The NTC is indefensible and was just a plain bad move. Neither of them, it turns out, actually impacted the team negatively all that much, though it maybe have impacted the Illitch's pocketbook (hard to feel bad for them considering they haven't paid taxes in about ten years lol).

The question I would have is how high would the bar be set for Mantha to beat someone out?

Very far considering he has no systems training and Babs runs one of the most demanding systems in the league. This kid has zero chance of making the team next season. Letting him learn the system in GR from Blashill is the right call, just not the sexy one.

[marcaractac 3,962]

Very far considering he has no systems training and Babs runs one of the most demanding systems in the league. This kid has zero chance of making the team next season. Letting him learn the system in GR from Blashill is the right call, just not the sexy one.

A season in GR to learn the ropes is definitely what's best. I'd imagine he will get a few looks during the season with the Wings during the season, however.

[VM1138 1,921]

They say the same thing every year. I doubt Mantha makes the team even if he outscores everyone. The players, Babcock and Holland have all said they need to get more veteran, maybe they make an exception for Mantha, but how will we have room for him as well as getting tougher and more skilled up front?

[rick zombo 3,739]

Don't try to call someone out when you don't even know that BOWMAN WAS A COACH!

Also, don't put down Bowman. All he ever does is win.

Montreal.

Pittsburgh.

Detroit.

Chicago.

Of course I know Bowman was af****** coach.

I assumed, since you were evaluating Holland as a GM, that you were comparing him to Bowman when he had assumed brief GM duties (or player personal or whatever vague position he had along with being the coach) with the Wings back in the 90s.

As it turns out, you were comparing Holland the GM to Bowman the coach? Is that what you were doing? Why? Why would you do that?

And also, it is true that the Illitches had to intervene when Bowman (who was acting as GM) had all but traded Yzerman for Yashin back in 1994 or 1995. That would have probably meant ZERO cups for us over the last 20 years. So yeah, don't tell me what to do. I'll put Bowman down if I want. He's not infallible.

How about you not put down Holland? How do you like that for an order?

Edited April 29, 2014 by rick zombo

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

The problem is this literally applies to everything that is said on here.

Also you remind me a lot of Helen St James. This is not a good thing.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree or disagree with the stuff you say, but these are fellow wings fans, we all want success.

I'm not saying you have to agree with them, or even like what they say, but I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to insult everyone whos opinion differs from you.

Its not what you say its how you say things that makes me want to argue against you.

But Missing the playoffs by one spot wasnt going to drop us in the draft far enough to get your franchise saviour.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

I think the only circumstance where Mantha makes this team is if Alfie doesn't re-sign and he outplays Jurco big time. Then he might have a spot on the 3rd line. I wonder about Jurco's status with the team at the moment... I think he'll both have to prove he deserves a spot in camp for sure. Either way, I think he should play in the AHL to start the season - just my preference.

Some of the other interesting info on Twitter was about Babs' status with the team/Holland not allowing teams to talk to Blashill and the desire for a right-handed shot. I think that's a huge signal to Sproul and Marchenko, and a hint to guys like Quincey, Kindl and Lashoff. They've specifically praised the play of Smith and DK. I don't blame them for not getting into a bidding war over the thin market of UFA d-men - the only RH guy who will truly make an impact is Niskanen, and I'm sure he's going to command a good chunk of cash.

[wings7 62]

Of course I know Bowman was af****** coach.

I assumed, since you were evaluating Holland as a GM, that you were comparing him to Bowman when he had assumed brief GM duties (or player personal or whatever vague position he had along with being the coach) with the Wings back in the 90s.

As it turns out, you were comparing Holland the GM to Bowman the coach? Is that what you were doing? Why? Why would you do that?

And also, it is true that the Illitches had to intervene when Bowman (who was acting as GM) had all but traded Yzerman for Yashin back in 1994 or 1995. That would have probably meant ZERO cups for us over the last 20 years. So yeah, don't tell me what to do. I'll put Bowman down if I want. He's not infallible.

How about you not put down Holland? How do you like that for an order?

I don't think Holland has done anything for the team. I think it's been other people and Holland getting more credit than he deserves. Bowman was still here with Holland even when we won in 08. Since Bowman left, everything has fallen to s***.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

I think the only circumstance where Mantha makes this team is if Alfie doesn't re-sign and he outplays Jurco big time. Then he might have a spot on the 3rd line. I wonder about Jurco's status with the team at the moment... I think he'll both have to prove he deserves a spot in camp for sure. Either way, I think he should play in the AHL to start the season - just my preference.

Some of the other interesting info on Twitter was about Babs' status with the team/Holland not allowing teams to talk to Blashill and the desire for a right-handed shot. I think that's a huge signal to Sproul and Marchenko, and a hint to guys like Quincey, Kindl and Lashoff. They've specifically praised the play of Smith and DK. I don't blame them for not getting into a bidding war over the thin market of UFA d-men - the only RH guy who will truly make an impact is Niskanen, and I'm sure he's going to command a good chunk of cash.

I posted this in the kh quote topic, but it shows my agreement so I thought I'd post it here too.

"it kinda seems like jurco and sheahan will be regulars next season.

I've seen multiple quotes from KH and babs that they took jobs.

The only way I see jurco starting out in gr is if mantha comes in and is monumentally better.I just hope he gets a full rookie season when he does come in, I'd like to have a r.o.y candidate. "

And why do you think they wouldn't they allow other teams to talk to blashill when they're talking about extensions with babs?

I think it'd be hilarious if they switched, Babcock in gr and blashill in Detroit.

And honestly I think jurco deserves his spot.

Put the sheahan Tatar and jurco line back together, they compliment each other so well and sheahan and jurcos size and jurco skill gives Tatar the space he needs to thrive.

But mantha is wayyy bigger, so if he earns it, it could work too.

Edited April 29, 2014 by jimmyemeryhunter

[marcaractac 3,962]

The question I would have is how high would the bar be set for Mantha to beat someone out?

My guess is that if Mantha were to crack the lineup, he'd have to be in the top 6. So I'd say he has to at least be the 6th best forward (definitively) in camp and preseason to win a spot. Regardless, I think a year in GR would be best for him. But crazier things have happened.

[rick zombo 3,739]

I don't think Holland has done anything for the team. I think it's been other people and Holland getting more credit than he deserves. Bowman was still here with Holland even when we won in 08. Since Bowman left, everything has fallen to s***.

Holland's done plenty of good things. And some bad. Just like Bowman. Just like pretty much everyone who has dipped a toe in NHL waters.

Around these parts, I would argue he doesn't get enough credit. I tend to try and evaluate his work over larger periods of time that, IMO, have yet to expire.

[wings7 62]

Holland's done plenty of good things. And some bad. Just like Bowman. Just like pretty much everyone who has dipped a toe in NHL waters.

Around these parts, I would argue he doesn't get enough credit. I tend to try and evaluate his work over larger periods of time that, IMO, have yet to expire.

We just disagree.

In the salary cap era. Holland has made a ton of bad moves.

Also, I'm not sure Scotty can be compared to Holland.

And not everyone has done some good and some bad. It's not that black and white.

Listening/Reading Holland's comments today instills no confidence that this team will be better next year.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Zetterberg was quoted somewhere on the boards that youth movements are nice but we've been there before, and our priority should be winning the Cup (or something along those lines). It could be taken as a message to front office to make some essential moves this summer.

Anyway, Datsyuk just posted on Twitter or Facebook "We need to be better... Next year we need to not make it 24 playoffs, we need to win the Cup".

So we have both Datsyuk and Zetterberg talking about the need to win, and not five years from now but immediately. These guys only have a few good years left and they know it. I wonder if Holland will get the message, and if so, I wonder how he will respond.

[wings87 1,290]

My guess is that if Mantha were to crack the lineup, he'd have to be in the top 6. So I'd say he has to at least be the 6th best forward (definitively) in camp and preseason to win a spot. Regardless, I think a year in GR would be best for him. But crazier things have happened.

I think he's destined for Grand Rapids, it would also be nice if he's not need at the start- which would mean that Holland went and upgraded the team.

[rick zombo 3,739]

We just disagree.

In the salary cap era. Holland has made a ton of bad moves.

Also, I'm not sure Scotty can be compared to Holland.

And not everyone has done some good and some bad. It's not that black and white.

Listening/Reading Holland's comments today instills no confidence that this team will be better next year.

Mos def.

[Shaman 713]

I'm not saying I necessarily agree or disagree with the stuff you say, but these are fellow wings fans, we all want success.

I'm not saying you have to agree with them, or even like what they say, but I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to insult everyone whos opinion differs from you.

Its not what you say its how you say things that makes me want to argue against you.

But Missing the playoffs by one spot wasnt going to drop us in the draft far enough to get your franchise saviour.

I see a team that went from in the course of 5 years, being one of the safest bets to be a presidents cup and Stanley Cup winner to being a team that analysts can make a case for them missing the playoffs, or being first round fodder. Barely making the playoffs, then being bounced in 5 games isn't success, it's mediocrity. I am tired of it, I am tired of watching Holland every year putting together a team then blaming the fates for it failing. For the last three years it's been 'well if only X would have or wouldn't have happened...' and 'You just need to make the dance then anything can happen', it's starting to become plainly obvious the problem isn't luck, it's philosophy and it needs to change soon, or they will have multiple seasons where they don't make the dance. The Wings are not immune to the same ills that plague other teams, and I really don't want them to become like the Flames or Predators.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

I think it's easy to look at this season, perhaps the last two or so, and feel as if Kenny dropped the ball. Personally, I hate all the vet signing he's made. I think the Quincey trade was a big mistake. I feel as if he should listen to Babcock about certain aspects of this team (there seems to be some definite friction). I think he should have trusted the kids a bit more. If Jarnkrok stays in North America, I'm sour about that trade as well. It's easy to be upset with Kenny right now.

On the flip side, it's hard to argue against the drafting this team has done since 2008 - Kenny hanging onto all those picks has paid off. The team couldn't lure Parise-Suter over, but I don't think the blame can solely lie on Kenny shoulder's for that. It's a combination of destination, coaching and desired teammates. Maybe the team overestimate the allure of playing here, and they're realizing now that they're going to have to overpay to land a big name. That's reality now.

I think this team is in a good position to make some real changes. They've got cap space, some reliable older players and a cupboard full of prospects knocking on the door. Now if in the next 2-3 seasons he pushes this youth movement, makes a trade and can sign a big free agent or two, he redeems himself in my eyes. We have several assets - prospects can be flipped and some picks can be moved for legitimate players. Kenny has cards to play with now, and I'd like to see him actually play. Dropping the ball here would definitely sway me to the, "Good-Bye Kenny" side, but I'd also like to see what he does in this (favorable) situation.

[rick zombo 3,739]

I think it's easy to look at this season, perhaps the last two or so, and feel as if Kenny dropped the ball. Personally, I hate all the vet signing he's made. I think the Quincey trade was a big mistake. I feel as if he should listen to Babcock about certain aspects of this team (there seems to be some definite friction). I think he should have trusted the kids a bit more. If Jarnkrok stays in North America, I'm sour about that trade as well. It's easy to be upset with Kenny right now.

On the flip side, it's hard to argue against the drafting this team has done since 2008 - Kenny hanging onto all those picks has paid off. The team couldn't lure Parise-Suter over, but I don't think the blame can solely lie on Kenny shoulder's for that. It's a combination of destination, coaching and desired teammates. Maybe the team overestimate the allure of playing here, and they're realizing now that they're going to have to overpay to land a big name. That's reality now.

I think this team is in a good position to make some real changes. They've got cap space, some reliable older players and a cupboard full of prospects knocking on the door. Now if in the next 2-3 seasons he pushes this youth movement, makes a trade and can sign a big free agent or two, he redeems himself in my eyes. We have several assets - prospects can be flipped and some picks can be moved for legitimate players. Kenny has cards to play with now, and I'd like to see him actually play. Dropping the ball here would definitely sway me to the, "Good-Bye Kenny" side, but I'd also like to see what he does in this (favorable) situation.

This last part is spot on, and basically how I feel. Well said.

[wings87 1,290]

I definitely agree with some of the things you've said. For instance, Holland is notoriously stingy when it comes time to make offers to free agents (remember Wisniewski's 'market value' comment). But I don't think his moves have been as bad as people think. Hindsight has shown that some of them haven't worked out, but who could have known at the time. For instance, it's easy to say that he doesn't attract top flight FA's, but Weiss and Alfie were both at the top of their respective FA cohorts. Likewise, the Quincey move is generally considered bad. But prior to coming back he'd been playing top four minutes and scoring around 30 pts. a season. And he was young and still had development potential. Easily worth a first at the time. With Legwand I'd generally agree we overpaid, but Poile had us over a barrel and we knew it. Even then, we were still getting a very good two way center capable of putting up good numbers. It's mindblogging how he was used, but that's not his fault. Tootoo? Same deal as Legwand. They both just did what they do, no knock on their game.

The two worst things that Holland did recently were bring back Cleary and give Sammy a No Trade Clause. The first is defensible because Babs and the team leadership intervened on Cleary's behalf. The NTC is indefensible and was just a plain bad move. Neither of them, it turns out, actually impacted the team negatively all that much, though it maybe have impacted the Illitch's pocketbook (hard to feel bad for them considering they haven't paid taxes in about ten years lol).

I don't think he's been as bad as he's being portrayed on here, although Holland has passed up or has been been passed up by top UFA's in the last several years,(which is a tad troubling.) part of which has to do with not trading for UFA rights as in Wisniewski's case. Trading for players rights is a practice that Holland needs to get more involved with since its becoming more prevalent in the NHL.

I personally don't care about the NTC for Sammy, his contract was so bad along with his performance that Holland wouldn't have been able to trade him anyway. As far as the Quincey trade- I agree he seemed to have some potential(maybe cause I didn't watch him much, after he left) but what makes the trade bad was the over payment; even with some potential- Quincey shouldn't have cost a 1st rounder. Frankly Holland scares me on the trade front, he's been prone to overpaying and he hasn't made a good trade since Stuart.

The only bad thing about the Cleary signing was that Nyquist was blocked, other then that his cap hit was low-and I applaud his loyalty. The Alfie signing I'll attribute more to the Swedish contingent that the Wings have. As far as Weiss goes, I'm willing to reserve judgement until he's healthy.

Edited April 29, 2014 by wings87

[wings7 62]

I think it's easy to look at this season, perhaps the last two or so, and feel as if Kenny dropped the ball. Personally, I hate all the vet signing he's made. I think the Quincey trade was a big mistake. I feel as if he should listen to Babcock about certain aspects of this team (there seems to be some definite friction). I think he should have trusted the kids a bit more. If Jarnkrok stays in North America, I'm sour about that trade as well. It's easy to be upset with Kenny right now.

On the flip side, it's hard to argue against the drafting this team has done since 2008 - Kenny hanging onto all those picks has paid off. The team couldn't lure Parise-Suter over, but I don't think the blame can solely lie on Kenny shoulder's for that. It's a combination of destination, coaching and desired teammates. Maybe the team overestimate the allure of playing here, and they're realizing now that they're going to have to overpay to land a big name. That's reality now.

I think this team is in a good position to make some real changes. They've got cap space, some reliable older players and a cupboard full of prospects knocking on the door. Now if in the next 2-3 seasons he pushes this youth movement, makes a trade and can sign a big free agent or two, he redeems himself in my eyes. We have several assets - prospects can be flipped and some picks can be moved for legitimate players. Kenny has cards to play with now, and I'd like to see him actually play. Dropping the ball here would definitely sway me to the, "Good-Bye Kenny" side, but I'd also like to see what he does in this (favorable) situation.

I agree with your thinking - I give him this offseason to be better. If we are not up with BOS and PIT by december, I'm ready to move on.

Give us a team now.