Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 18, 2014 Carefull Dat, you just painted a target on yourself. How dare you point out and say those things about Nyquist........ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ekmanc 586 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 Yep Nyquist is 25 after all, he is clearly not going to get any better... 1 Motown4013 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
_SP_ 129 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 So you want the goal reviewed for goalie interference, but you miss the holding/hooking call that leads to the penalty shot for Nyquist? There's no distinct kicking motion. (...of goaltender) The call on the ice stands. The penalty shot doesn't automatically = goal. The running of the skate into the goalie's skate- in his crease- directly led to a goal. It doesn't need to be a kicking motion to be goaltender interference? Where'd you learn that interpretation of the rule? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyukian-Deke 722 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 (edited) Carefull Dat, you just painted a target on yourself. How dare you point out and say those things about Nyquist........ I'm not saying Nyquist isn't a really good player and it's a risk trading him but how many people would have liked the Wings to trade the mule when his stock was high. Edited May 19, 2014 by Datsyukian-Deke Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ekmanc 586 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 (edited) We can't be a talent factory for other teams. And as for Nyquist not scoring as much as during his streak, he doesn't need to... during that time he was almost a goal a game player, that's something no one in this entire league is, if he scores half or even a third of that he'll stil be a great player for us. Edited May 19, 2014 by Ekmanc 2 DannyD and frankgrimes reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 I don't think many, if any, NHL GMs are going to base Nyquist's value on his hot streak. I doubt anyone really expects him to be a 40+ goal scorer, or 30+ even. I think if he scores 20+g, 50+p next year it would raise his value. And if he were to sign a new deal at a good hit, say 4 yrs @ <=$3M/yr, it would raise even further. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankgrimes 1,836 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 I don't think many, if any, NHL GMs are going to base Nyquist's value on his hot streak. I doubt anyone really expects him to be a 40+ goal scorer, or 30+ even. I think if he scores 20+g, 50+p next year it would raise his value. And if he were to sign a new deal at a good hit, say 4 yrs @ <=$3M/yr, it would raise even further. I agree with that I think if he can reach 20 - 25 goals that would be great, expectations are already through the roof for him and just because of one hot streak (every player goes through that) If we could get a legit top pairing defenseman for him I'd do that trade everytime. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xtrememachine1 795 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 A lot of the Wings needs, are already kind of filled. If we let these young guys grow, the holes in our roster will slowly melt away. Tatar, Nyquist, Jurco, Sheahan, DeKeyser need to be untouchable right now. They'll get better and better each year and the need for a goal scoring snipers, two way shutdown forwards and solid two way defensive men will go away without having to overpay for some name on the free agent market. I think Holland will do what he's been doing, use cap space to lock up young guns and pick up some players that can fit into our system at a good price. While in the past this strategy has annoyed me, we're no longer in the "win now" way of thinking, which is unfortunate for Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but its what's best for the long term success of the franchise. I think if Holland stays the course, we'll be a strong Cup contender in 2-3 years. The young guys have given me hope and showed a lot more quicker than I expected. Granted it was only a couple hockey analysts, but hearing people mention Nyquist's name for the Hart is very promising. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
e_prime 1,936 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 The penalty shot doesn't automatically = goal. The running of the skate into the goalie's skate- in his crease- directly led to a goal. It doesn't need to be a kicking motion to be goaltender interference? Where'd you learn that interpretation of the rule? Let me break it down for you. 1. Never stated that a penalty shot = goal. In the history of internet posters talking about wanting a penalty shot, no one has ever thought that a penalty shot equals automatic goal. ...but it doesn't mean that there shouldn't have been a penalty shot. Furthermore, and to address the non-calls on both players. If you're a ref and you ignore the obvious holding/hooking on Nyquist, you also should ignore the almost non-existent interference on the goalie. 2. Second part = joke. sarcasm. funny stuff. "interpretation of the rule" was a play on the kicking a goal in rule vs. the no rule about kicking a goaltender and getting a goal. it's all right there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 XM I disagree. 3 years from now when the young guys you mention are developed-which they will be, Datsyuk will be gone, Z and Kronwall will be in the late 30's-who knows how much they will still be able to produce, Franzen will be gone I HOPE! Ericsson mid 30's etc.... The point is, the young guys are not coming fast enough to replace what we will be losing, which in fact has been the problem the last 4 or 5 years. Even if all of the young guys that have already made it to detroit pan out-which history says they will not, none of them are guys any sees a future 80 point guy. Most look like good solid 2nd and 3rd line players. Guys that will score between 15-25 goals with 40-50 points per year. Yes every team needs guys like that. But it is your point per game guys that win cups. Or if a team is able to shut down those point per game guys. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Euro_Twins 4,469 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 XM I disagree. 3 years from now when the young guys you mention are developed-which they will be, Datsyuk will be gone, Z and Kronwall will be in the late 30's-who knows how much they will still be able to produce, Franzen will be gone I HOPE! Ericsson mid 30's etc.... The point is, the young guys are not coming fast enough to replace what we will be losing, which in fact has been the problem the last 4 or 5 years. Even if all of the young guys that have already made it to detroit pan out-which history says they will not, none of them are guys any sees a future 80 point guy. Most look like good solid 2nd and 3rd line players. Guys that will score between 15-25 goals with 40-50 points per year. Yes every team needs guys like that. But it is your point per game guys that win cups. Or if a team is able to shut down those point per game guys. I can see nyquist putting up 70 points/year by then 1 Motown4013 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 I can see nyquist putting up 70 points/year by then Possible. But we know that we are losing a 80 point guy in Datsyuk by then, and Z will be 37/38 and a shadow as well. Which is the point. The only other guy that we currently have in the system that could be a big timer is Mantha, and he has yet to play a pro game. But regardless of which guys turn out or not, we have to replace talent that is already gone AND the talent we will be losing over the next 5 years, just to be a team capable of making deep playoff runs. For us to do that we need more talent than just the standard 7 picks in the draft each year can provide. We need to either pick up veteran players or more 1st round picks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyukian-Deke 722 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 I can see nyquist putting up 70 points/year by then I don't see his points being that high . Dats and Z have been the only guys that have done that for us in the last ten years and even though Nyquist has major skill, he isn't Dats or Z. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankgrimes 1,836 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 A lot of the Wings needs, are already kind of filled. If we let these young guys grow, the holes in our roster will slowly melt away. Tatar, Nyquist, Jurco, Sheahan, DeKeyser need to be untouchable right now. They'll get better and better each year and the need for a goal scoring snipers, two way shutdown forwards and solid two way defensive men will go away without having to overpay for some name on the free agent market. I think Holland will do what he's been doing, use cap space to lock up young guns and pick up some players that can fit into our system at a good price. While in the past this strategy has annoyed me, we're no longer in the "win now" way of thinking, which is unfortunate for Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but its what's best for the long term success of the franchise. I think if Holland stays the course, we'll be a strong Cup contender in 2-3 years. The young guys have given me hope and showed a lot more quicker than I expected. Granted it was only a couple hockey analysts, but hearing people mention Nyquist's name for the Hart is very promising. The problem with that is you can fill most spots with good drafting and developing - which the Wings are obviously doing - but replacing Datsyuk and Zetterberg ? Oh boy that's a huge task we are talking about two allstars with an almost perfect 200ft game and on top of that Holland would have to do it with high picks not an easy task at all. I love the way Tatar, Nyquist, Dekeyser, Sheahan and even Jurco are progressing but I'm not expecting either them to become stars and for sure not allstars. The good thing is, Chicago will soon have to raise Seabrook, Toews and Kane in the same year and they won't have enough cap to do it so I know a lot of people don't like him but I would welcome Toews with open arms on this team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DannyD 79 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 Call me crazy but I don't think we need to trade the farm for a "sniper" especially when we have someone like Mantha who could step in this year or next year. Someone who could pot 35-40 goals would be awesome, don't get me wrong, but look at it in the grand scheme of things. We have 4 guys next year that are still relatively new to the team that could all score around 20 goals. Goose 22-24 goals. Tatar 21-22 Sheahan 18-20 Jurco 18-20 Pulks could probably be a 15-20 goal scorer in is first couple years if given PP time as well, imo. I would much rather have balanced scoring and guys on three lines who can net us some goals rather than relying on one or two guys to get the job done, not to mention these kids are going to keep progressing and becoming better players. If we could add someone in FA than I'm all for it, but I don't see the need in trading away Goose or Tatar for a guy who MAYBE will net 10 more goals than them. Now I would trade away Tats in a package for a top Dman, but that's a different story. 1 marcaractac reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rivalred 630 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 I can see nyquist putting up 70 points/year by then Hope you don't live near a busy intersection, as you may end up running in traffic if he doesn't; basically don't get your hopes up. If he continues what he did next season or two, then he is the real deal, until then, I for one am not expecting much out of him, as many others shouldn't either. Let the kid learn and play Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 If I can trade someone who could be a 30 goal scorer for someone who is a 30 goal scorer and is in his prime years, I'd do it in a hot second. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BadgerBob 297 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 The problem with that is you can fill most spots with good drafting and developing - which the Wings are obviously doing - but replacing Datsyuk and Zetterberg ? Oh boy that's a huge task we are talking about two allstars with an almost perfect 200ft game and on top of that Holland would have to do it with high picks not an easy task at all. I love the way Tatar, Nyquist, Dekeyser, Sheahan and even Jurco are progressing but I'm not expecting either them to become stars and for sure not allstars. The good thing is, Chicago will soon have to raise Seabrook, Toews and Kane in the same year and they won't have enough cap to do it so I know a lot of people don't like him but I would welcome Toews with open arms on this team. No way Toews is the odd man out in that group. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,205 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 The big thing for young forwards these days is value. Point totals are only half of that equation. Maybe Nyquist won't set the world on fire, but if he can produce like a $5M Daniel Alfredsson (in 2013-14) while on a modest early contract, that's a great value, which is hugely important. Elliotte Friedman touched on this: Pittsburgh doesn't have young forwards on early deals like Bryan Bickell, Brandon Saad and Andrew Shaw, who played major roles in Chicago's recent win. That's who they've got to find, and no one would be surprised if they tested James Neal's value to see what's out there. (Side note: Like I've said, I think Neal to SJ looks realistic.) Holland actually had the right idea when he re-signed Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, and Cleary. He thought he'd be getting pretty good value for these guys. Problem with that is, of course, you're counting on a best-case scenario in all three cases. The guys would pretty much have to produce to their ceilings for their deals to look really good, and that's not realistic, for a number of reasons. This is why I'm ok with a youth movement @ forward. You need a nucles of overachievers, guys under the age of 28 who are putting up very good numbers relative to what they're getting paid and what's being expected of them. Like, if Sheahan is ready to be our second-line center (and the case could be made that he is), that's a 2C you don't have to pay $4-6M, and that's money you can give an elite player to fill an important hole on your roster (say, in your top four). The guy I really want to see break out next season is Jurco. Remember how *valuable* Franzen was for us, pre-extension? We've been missing a player and value like that. We've been leaning too heavily on the guys who are "knowns" for us. As for Nyquist, I think he just needs to add some bulk like Z did way back in the day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,205 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 If I can trade someone who could be a 30 goal scorer for someone who is a 30 goal scorer and is in his prime years, I'd do it in a hot second. There would have to be a catch, though. There's always a catch. Like, the guy in his prime is on a really ugly contract that his GM is all too eager to dump on someone. I'm pro-trading potentials for knowns. I just don't think Bergevin gives us Pacioretty for Nyquist. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Motown4013 350 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 I don't see his points being that high . Dats and Z have been the only guys that have done that for us in the last ten years and even though Nyquist has major skill, he isn't Dats or Z. I can't disagree more......he is the best young guy on this team. Heart of a lion, super hockey IQ, he plays well at both ends of the ice, quick on his skates. What's not to love about this kid? He is NOT Franzen because he works his butt off every shift. He led the league in points in the last month ......more than Crosy, OV, Perry or whomever. You said in a prior shift that we should trade him now because he isn't going to get better......what? Did he not get better, and Better and BETTER all year? This guy can easily have an 80 pt year. Yep, we should trade him now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,205 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 I do wonder about Mantha's trade value. Could he be considered a major piece in a trade for an elite player? Would the aforementioned Habs be interested in him? Not that I'm thinking we need to unload him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 There would have to be a catch, though. There's always a catch. Like, the guy in his prime is on a really ugly contract that his GM is all too eager to dump on someone. I'm pro-trading potentials for knowns. I just don't think Bergevin gives us Pacioretty for Nyquist. Nyquist, no. Mantha, maybe. Granted, those types rarely get traded unless either they're partying too much, demand a trade, or something similar, but if you have a chance to get that type of player you do it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,205 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 Nyquist, no. Mantha, maybe. Granted, those types rarely get traded unless either they're partying too much, demand a trade, or something similar, but if you have a chance to get that type of player you do it. Do you think we should try for James Neal? All signs seem to point to him being aggressively shopped this summer. Spezza's also an intriguing option, though he's no longer in his prime. Hossa's another old guy who almost certainly won't be bought out or shopped, but I'd expect Holland to kick the tires, as there's the mutual history and respect and he's still a pretty elite player. Kesler would probably cost a king's ransom, but I guess he's also a possibility. Broken record, but I believe there are always options on the trade front, whether it's a top-four defenseman or a 30-goal-scorer in his prime. Maybe not so much with top goalies, but I believe Mrazek is going to be a star anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted May 19, 2014 If Neal would stop his diving and cheap shots, I'd give up a lot to get him. He has 4 more years left on a deal with a very reasonable $5 mil cap hit. I think he's a d-bag, but the Wings have had plenty of d-bags on the roster. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites