Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

[kipwinger 8,495]

Like I said, I don't want Quincey either, but it wouldn't be the worst thing that could happen. The only guy in his prime we could sign would be Niskanen. And I still think he will want too much money. If he doesn't and we get him, and that makes Smith expendable, that would be perfect. But I don't think that's realistic possibility.

I agree with the parts about Quincey and Niskanen. But I just think that if the guy you acquire doesn't give you considerable improvement, you're better off letting Sproul and Quellet or Marchenko get the experience. Take the team we've got right now and add Boyle and we're really not much better. We'd still get ruined in the playoffs (if we made them). If that's the outcome either way, let the kids get the experience.

[Dabura 12,206]

IMO you're better off signing or trading for a guy in his prime

Eh, not necessarily. If it's Boyle for a couple years, maybe $7M each, that's not bad. Versus what you might have to pay for a top-four defenseman in his prime (free agent or trade acquisition). Or, we could get, say, Stralman (who I like), but that doesn't give us the point production and power play prowess we need from our top four, which Boyle would, in theory, give us.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of trading for a Keith Yandle, if we can. Just saying.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

I'd like to see Holland trade for a player in the range of:

Shattenkirk

Letang

Bogosian

We have loads of assets right now especially on wing. I think if we bring Alfie back and trade one of Nyquist/Tatar/Jurco along with Smith/E and our 1st we could probably get one of these guys. We have Mantha and Pulkkinen coming up along with AA so its not like we will be hurting for wingers. Furthermore, most of the top UFA players tend to be wingers every year.

I think one thing Holland HAS to do this offseason is remove Kindl from the roster through trade. Kindl just shouldn't be an option for Babs anymore. Lashoff works just fine as a 7th dman but we need to move on from Kindl ASAP.

If Holland can address top 3 RH D this offseason and then address top 6 C prospect next offseason we will be in good shape for the present and the future.

[kipwinger 8,495]

Eh, not necessarily. If it's Boyle for a couple years, maybe $7M each, that's not bad. Versus what you might have to pay for a top-four defenseman in his prime (free agent or trade acquisition). Or, we could get, say, Stralman (who I like), but that doesn't give us the point production and power play prowess we need from our top four, which Boyle would, in theory, give us.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of trading for a Keith Yandle, if we can. Just saying.

That's exactly my point. Trading for a guy like Yandle makes us significantly better, no matter the price. Signing a guy like Boyle makes us a little better (maybe) but not enough. Given how far we are from being a competitive team, a little better isn't enough. Let the kids get the experience if you're not going to be competitive either way. And IF you want to be competitive, you've got to do something more substantial than Dan Boyle.

When you've got an entire core of guys in their prime and playing well, getting a "little better" can be a big help. For example, the additions of Oduya and Handzus for Chicago. We don't have a core it their prime. We've got kids who aren't ready yet, and old guys who can't get it done anymore. We've got two options A) spend the assets it takes to get competitive again, whatever it takes (within reason), or B) wait three more years and hope a couple of your young guys turn out to be good enough to make up for the lose in quality you'll get as your stars decline. And even then it's probably a wash.

Edited June 6, 2014 by kipwinger

[Dabura 12,206]

That's exactly my point. Trading for a guy like Yandle makes us significantly better, no matter the price. Signing a guy like Boyle makes us a little better (maybe) but not enough. Given how far we are from being a competitive team, a little better isn't enough. Let the kids get the experience if you're not going to be competitive either way. And IF you want to be competitive, you've got to do something more substantial than Dan Boyle.

When you've got an entire core of guys in their prime and playing well, getting a "little better" can be a big help. For example, the additions of Oduya and Handzus for Chicago. We don't have a core it their prime. We've got kids who aren't ready yet, and old guys who can't get it done anymore. We've got two options A) spend the assets it takes to get competitive again, whatever it takes (within reason), or B) wait three more years and hope a couple of your young guys turn out to be good enough to make up for the lose in quality you'll get as your stars decline. And even then it's probably a wash.

No, I hear you, we're on the same page. I just don't think signing Boyle is a bad idea. Ideal? No, not really. But certainly not a waste of a signing. He's still a top-four defenseman. He can move the puck as well as anyone on our blue line, he can put up points on par with Kronwall, he can QB the second PP unit. The only things he can't do are skate real fast, clear the crease with big burly physical might (which was never his game anyway), and play huge minutes through 82 + deep into the playoffs. But we wouldn't be expecting the Dan Boyle of old. We'd be expecting a high-class #4 whose shortcomings would be offset by DeKeyser, who's arguably our best defensive defenseman.

Saying that adding Dan Boyle to our second pairing wouldn't help us (I'm looking at you, Rich), I don't understand that. Kronwall-Smith/Ericsson and DeKeyser-Boyle is not a bad top four. And, again, if Boyle gets bumped down to the third pairing or gets injured, that's an opportunity for a kid. (We all know whichever players are slotted in as regulars this season, we're gonna have key injuries in our top four, and that will lead to great opportunity for a couple of Griffins.) Again, not ideal. But pretty damn ok, all things considered.

[kipwinger 8,495]

No, I hear you, we're on the same page. I just don't think signing Boyle is a bad idea. Ideal? No, not really. But certainly not a waste of a signing. He's still a top-four defenseman. He can move the puck as well as anyone on our blue line, he can put up points on par with Kronwall, he can QB the second PP unit. The only things he can't do are skate real fast, clear the crease with big burly physical might (which was never his game anyway), and play huge minutes through 82 + deep into the playoffs. But we wouldn't be expecting the Dan Boyle of old. We'd be expecting a high-class #4 whose shortcomings would be offset by DeKeyser, who's arguably our best defensive defenseman.

Saying that adding Dan Boyle to our second pairing wouldn't help us (I'm looking at you, Rich), I don't understand that. Kronwall-Smith/Ericsson and DeKeyser-Boyle is not a bad top four. And, again, if Boyle gets bumped down to the third pairing or gets injured, that's an opportunity for a kid. (We all know whichever players are slotted in as regulars this season, we're gonna have key injuries in our top four, and that will lead to great opportunity for a couple of Griffins.) Again, not ideal. But pretty damn ok, all things considered.

Well I'll say this. It would be a big gamble. I don't think we'd get the Dan Boyle of last year, nevermind the Dan Boyle of old. He put up 36 points last year on a team that's WAY more offensively capable than we are. In my opinion he's declining fast.

Don't get it twisted, I'd love to be wrong. But I'm skeptical that adding another old guy on the decline is going to improve us that much. A signing like that is just treading water, and one of these days we're all going to wake up and realize that while we were treading water we wasted the last 6, 7, 8, years of two of the best two-way forwards of their generation. Other than "trying" on Suter and Parise, there hasn't been a meaningful attempt to make this team elite since 2009. That's not ******* acceptable.

[Dabura 12,206]

To be clear, I'm not saying we need to sign Dan Boyle. Even if he's game for a two-year deal with us (not likely), I believe we can do better. That's where I really agree with you, kip. We can do better, at least in theory. We have tons of assets. We have about as much cap space as we're ever going to have (because this is about as close to rebuilding as we're going to get). We can get that top-four defenseman on the right side of 30.

I get wanting to hold on to your prospects, but we're looking at a logjam anyway. Kindl, Lashoff, Almqvist, Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko, Backman, Jensen, maybe even Smith - these guys are competing for, at absolute most, three spots.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Dabura

[Dabura 12,206]

Other than "trying" on Suter and Parise, there hasn't been a meaningful attempt to make this team elite since 2009. That's notf****** acceptable.

I don't fault him for Suter-Parise. I believe he got about as close as he was going to be able to get. What I fault him for is pursuing 90% of the big names that surface in the rumor mill (Nash, Edler, Bouwmeester, Salo, Burns, et al.), getting close to pulling the trigger a few times, and then turning around and saying, "That's not how you do it in the cap era," and then turning again and signing Alfredsson and Weiss and trading for Legwand. To me, that screams picky, cushy. He wants the perfect deal to fall in his lap, or he needs to be put in an impossibly desperate situation where he pretty much has no choice. He doesn't want to "overpay." He wants it to be nice and clean and storybook-like. Safe. On his terms. As long as we can make the playoffs, there's no serious urgency - and even then, "Well, we can't make the playoffs every year. Parity. Retooling. Parity. Difficult. Half the league makes the playoffs. Blah blah blah. But we can give Jordin Tootoo way more than he's worth. Blah blah blah."

I've posted this a couple times in the past few weeks and I'll post it again:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/41032-Campbell-Brent-Burns-trade-moves-Sharks-closer-to-Stanley-Cup.html

ST. PAUL – The moment Mike Babcock learned the San Jose Sharks had acquired defenseman Brent Burns, he instantly got the look of a guy who’s [sic] team just let one get away.

His Red Wings are looking for a defenseman to replace the retired Brian Rafalski, but it was the playoff rival Sharks who pried the talented Burns away from the Minnesota Wild in a blockbuster trade.

“They just hit a home run,” Babcock said of the Sharks. “That’s a gold medal pick. I’m pissed off.”

Kenny's always talking about how it takes two to dance. You have to wonder if he's the one who's unwilling to dance, not all 29 of the other GMs and all the free agents he's courted. And you have to wonder if that would be because the asking prices are always astronomical and totally non-justifiable, or because there's some issue on his end.

[kipwinger 8,495]

I don't fault him for Suter-Parise. I believe he got about as close as he was going to be able to get. What I fault him for is pursuing 90% of the big names that surface in the rumor mill (Nash, Edler, Bouwmeester, Salo, Burns, et al.), getting close to pulling the trigger a few times, and then turning around and saying, "That's not how you do it in the cap era," and then turning again and signing Alfredsson and Weiss and trading for Legwand. To me, that screams picky, cushy. He wants the perfect deal to fall in his lap, or he needs to be put in an impossibly desperate situation where he pretty much has no choice. He doesn't want to "overpay." He wants it to be nice and clean and storybook-like. Safe. On his terms. As long as we can make the playoffs, there's no serious urgency - and even then, "Well, we can't make the playoffs every year. Parity. Retooling. Parity. Difficult. Half the league makes the playoffs. Blah blah blah. But we can give Jordin Tootoo way more than he's worth. Blah blah blah."

I've posted this a couple times in the past few weeks and I'll post it again:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/41032-Campbell-Brent-Burns-trade-moves-Sharks-closer-to-Stanley-Cup.html

Kenny's always talking about how it takes two to dance. You have to wonder if he's the one who's unwilling to dance, not all 29 of the other GMs and all the free agents he's courted. And you have to wonder if that would be because the asking prices are always astronomical and totally non-justifiable, or because there's some issue on his end.

I agree with all that. When I brought up Suter-Parise I wasn't lamenting the fact that we didn't get them, but rather that's the last time we were willing to make a serious push for first rate players. I'm actually glad we didn't get them because they would have put us in cap hell. But you're right, it's got to be from our end. I can't believe that in the last 5 years only two players were available that were both right for our team and also worth the money. Everyone else seems capable of making meaningful moves at free agency or the trade deadline and it doesn't seem to be hurting the chances of Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, Boston, etc. Everybody acts like our only choices over the years have been "trade the future away" or "sign some has been who won't ask for too much". There's a middle ground, and probably more of one now than we've had in a long, long, time.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

What do you guys think about Chris Stewart? There is speculation that Buffalo is looking to deal him this summer. 26 years old. Played sub-par with the Blues (26 points in 58 games) and was dealt to Buffalo, where he had 0 points in 5 games. He's shown that he's capable of being a top 6 forward in the past. He'd also provide some physicality that we're lacking in the top 6.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Bring Back The Bruise Bros

[kipwinger 8,495]

What do you guys think about Chris Stewart? There is speculation that Buffalo is looking to deal him this summer. 26 years old. Played sub-par with the Blues (26 points in 58 games) and was dealt to Buffalo, where he had 0 points in 5 games. He's shown that he's capable of being a top 6 forward in the past. He'd also provide some physicality that we're lacking in the top 6.

I've always been curious about him too, but I recall someone saying that part of the reason he was traded was because Hitchcock didn't like him because he's not committed to two-way hockey. If that's true (and I don't really know if it is) then Babs will hate him too and he'll end up on the fourth line or playing 10 minutes a night and won't be worth a nickel. All depends on his attitude (and/or the validity of the rumors about him) I suppose. But on paper I'd be very interested.

[Dabura 12,206]

It's almost like there's this cosmic plan unfolding. That the universe has "course-corrected" so that we can not only acquire a top-four defenseman, but do so comfortably. Think about it. The unreal number of injuries revealing four top-six-worthy kids in Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco. Nyquist setting the world on fire. The kid line turning heads. Mantha - the kind of prospect any GM would kill for - being handed to us on a silver platter and then silencing his critics with a monster season. The six young NHL-ready defensemen, all of whom are looking like former first-round picks. Tyler Bertuzzi having the season he had. Glendening showing his mettle against Stamkos and Crosby. Athanasiou looking like a potential top-sixer. Pulkkinen tearing it up for the Griffins. DeKeyser choosing the Wings. A team like, I dunno, the Sens would probably love to have Andersson or Almqvist or Callahan or Ferraro.

Full credit to Team Holland on this front. Having this many promising young assets while always making the playoffs and never picking in the top twelve and never rebuilding - it's incredible, absolutely incredible. But my point is, it almost seems too perfect, doesn't it? It's like this had to happen. Is there perhaps some defenseman out there who's supposed to become a Wing and help lead us to glory? Or is the idea that we truly have all we need, and those special players - say, Ouellet and Pulkkinen - are going to rise to the surface this season and turn us into a contender?

Maybe I have it backwards with my Holland bashing. Maybe the bold, risky course of action is pushing for that one last Cup for Datsyuk using only what we have. I guess the argument could be made that anyone can pull off a trade, but not just anyone can amass the kind of young talent we have in our system. Hmmm.

[Dabura 12,206]

Stewart would definitely be a risk, a reclamation project. He's headstrong, didn't get along with Hitchcock (but then, who does?), disappeared for vast stretches of time, rarely looked really engaged, hasn't shown an interest in the 200-foot game...but I'd be very interested, because his upside and overall potential are so tantalizing. He's a 26-year-old power forward who shoots right, and we might be able to get him for a reasonable price. And it's definitely true that "problem players" have, in more than one case, reinvented themselves as Red Wings. So I at least kick the tires, definitely.

[Dabura 12,206]

Straight off the top of my head:

Zetterberg Datsyuk Jurco

Nyquist Weiss Stewart

Franzen Sheahan Pulkkinen

Miller Helm Abdelkader

I could get behind that.

[nawein 324]

Straight off the top of my head:

Zetterberg Datsyuk Jurco

Nyquist Weiss Stewart

Franzen Sheahan Pulkkinen

Miller Helm Abdelkader

I could get behind that.

Traded Tatar for help on the back end?

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

Traded Tatar for help on the back end?

I would assume for stewart, along with gllendening

[Guest DeGraa55]

I would assume for stewart, along with gllendening

Isn't Stewart a free agent?

If I was holland and he sees vanek isn't getting the interest he hope because of his asking price I'd try and see if he would do a semin type deal. Offer a one year a like 8 or 9m or hell even 10m with all the cap space we got. But as a plan like B or C. Obviously it's only work if there's little interest in vanek(which I doubt but who knows).

I really think Callahan would be a good pickup.

Also with guys like helm, weiss(unfortunately prolly untradable), sproul, oullete, marchenko, frk, mantha, jurco, Sheahan, kindl, Tatar, pulk etc etc we should be able to swing a deal or two.

Each year I find it so hard to believe holland will just sit on his hands so here's to hoping....

Edited June 7, 2014 by DeGraa55

[nawein 324]

Isn't Stewart a free agent?

I thought so too at first but his contract runs through the 14-15 season

[Guest DeGraa55]

I thought so too at first but his contract runs through the 14-15 season

Damn. Still wouldn't mind trading for him though.

Or spezza or Ryan or e Kane or....list goes in

[dirtydangles 1,328]

Tatar + Ericsson + 1st for Letang anyone?

I think this makes lots of sense - Pens need wingers and cap relief and the wings need a top pair RH dman (Letang is only 27). E will fill the void for the Pens.

I know a lot of people won't like trading E due to his size and age but some things to consider:

- E has never put up more than 15 points in a season

- E has never played over 75 games in a season

- I think Marchenko can pretty much fill the void left

Kronwall - Letang

Dekeyser - Ouellet

Smith - Marchenko

Sproul/Backman as top call ups.

In 2 years:

Kronwall - Letang

Dekeyser - Sproul

Smith/Ouellet/Backman - Marchenko

[Andy Pred 48 337]

no thanks the Pens can keep Letang on his 21/22 contract. He now has the health issue's which should be a stay clear off, which Kenny

hasnt in the past and has lost us many man/ games in players out due to re-occurring injuries.

i'd sooner us trade with Buffalo : Myers, Foligno and Stewart for ?

[DickieDunn 2,571]

No thanks to Stewart. If he couldn't get along with Hitchcock, I can't see him getting along with Babcock. Anyone who thinks Franzen floats would despise Stewart even more after his first shift. He's one of those guys who could be a superstar, but he doesn't have the drive, and never will.

Just because they have cap space, doesn't mean they have to use it all. Ask Buffalo how well that works out.

Bring in a 3rd pair D on a short term deal and let the younger guys develop.

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Jurco

Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist

Tatar-Sheahan-Abdelkader/Free agent/Mantha

Miller-Helm-Abdelkader/Glendening

Kronwall-Dekeyser

Smith-Ericsson

Rookie-New Guy

Lashoff is the 7th D. 2 of Glendening, Andersson, Callahan, and Ferraro are the reserves, depending on if they bring someone in.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

no thanks the Pens can keep Letang on his 21/22 contract. He now has the health issue's which should be a stay clear off, which Kenny

hasnt in the past and has lost us many man/ games in players out due to re-occurring injuries.

i'd sooner us trade with Buffalo : Myers, Foligno and Stewart for ?

Mark my words - Letang will never have another stroke in his playing career. A PFO isn't that big a deal once it is diagnosed. With regular medical testing and imaging Letang will never have another clot develop in his PFO and thus will never have a stroke by the same cause. All the GM's know this and I am sure Letang wouldn't risk his life if he was advised that there was a big enough future risk (which there isn't). Bottom line is that Letang is a PPG Dman who shoots right and could come at a decent price - those don't grow on trees.

PS. I am not a fan of Stewart either. Having Franzen and Stewart would be enough to drive me crazy in terms of inconsistent effort.

[Datsyukian-Deke 722]

Anyone else starving for real trade rumors and not hypotheticals? I'm dying here.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

Anyone else starving for real trade rumors and not hypotheticals? I'm dying here.

I'm in the same boat. I really wish I knew what "names" had been brought up by other GM's in discussion with Holland.