Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

[wings4thecup06 504]

I guess my whole point is that I don't believe when thinking of our team we should get into a false dichotomy of skill vs. power. There are other ways to become harder to play against than to try emulating Boston and/or Chicago. We don't have the core to be either of those teams. But we can be harder to play against if we've got size, we work hard, we skate fast, and our engines never stop running. And it so happens that there are guys out there who are available and who play that type of game. To me those guys would do a lot more to give this team an identity (and get it back to contention) than all the big named stars (Thornton, Vanek, Moulson, Richards, etc.) can because they compliment what we've already got on the roster rather than being redundant or opposite of our current lineup. Plus, guys like Kesler, Umberger, O'Reilly are the exact type of guys that Babs loves. They skate hard every shift, are HIGHLY competitive, play solid two way games, and are versatile.

That's how I'd make my personnel decisions this season. 1) Can the guy skate, 2) Does he work hard, 3) Is he a pain the in ass to play against. Any two of the guys I mentioned above plus Niskanen would go a LONG way right now. Of course that's just my opinion and I doubt it ever happens, but I'd love to see it.

Z-Dats-Kesler

Franzen-Weiss-O'Reilly

Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco

Miller-Glendening-Abby

Babcock would drool over that lineup.

That has pretty much epitomised in my head what I think we need this offseason. I couldn't agree more, and it's why when I heard that Kesler was available I thought the Wings should try and get him. If we look back to our cup winners, most of them have been because we blended that great skill with size and grit, along with some terrific puck movers on the backend.

If I'm Holland I'm going for a top 6 with size and work ethic who is a b****h to play against and a good puck moving D man. Would a guy like Thornton help? Meh, most certainly, but I don't think he's the key to getting this team back up there with the big boys.

[Dabura 12,207]

What about Brent Burns?

[frankgrimes 1,836]

It's nice to see more and more people finally admitting that the Wings aren't skilled enough to play the puck possession highly skilled game anymore and that's exactly why we are having such an identity crisis. If you can't outskill your opponent you need to grind them down or simply overpower them. Sadly, this team doesn't have the right players for that but the good thing is, there might be a few available come July 1.

I love this franchise but watching this team play when Z or Pasha having an offnight and the young guns are struggling is really boring. Don't get me wrong every team has an offnight but other teams such as Boston, LA always have some type of energy player to wake the team and the fans up, be it with a fight, a huge check or just blocking shots Gregory Campbell style. We don't have that because our front office still believes in a style that won't work without a ton of skill and I'm not even talking about the guy who made that style possible. The job Babcock has done is really amazing getting this team into the playoffs was huge but the sad truth is, we can no longer count on being a shoe-in each and every season and to be honest the team is having a tougher and tougher team to even make it.

It's nice that a lot of centers might be available this off-season - really didn't expect such a great amount of them - but our biggest need is a #1 defenseman and a top 4 shutdown guy, sadly, nobody seems to be trading those guys nowadays.

I honestly believe the Joe would be rocking again if the Wings would bring a grittier game. Fans love hitting, checks, fights and not only beauty plays.

The Oilers would be really stupid if they decide to let Perron go he did very well and if I remember correctly was their best goalscorer.

So to sum it up, our biggest needs are:

1. change of gamestyle

2. #1 and top 4 defender

3. center depth

[Richdg 267]

Kip, I agree with your question about identity. Who are the RW? We have neither the skill/speed to play a puck control system, nor the size/toughness to bang away. Either system works btw IF you have the players for it. if we look back over the past 20 years we see both systems/styles winning. The Devils won 3 cups and made a fourth with almost no offense. Played great D and had a great G. we won with both systems. The 95-02 teas was not a puck possession team. it was both. yes the Russian 5 played great possession, but the rest played far more dump/chase and very physical.

So who are we, and maybe more important, which fits us better long term? I think the size/toughness model works better long term. Yes we have some great possessors of the puck, but most of them are old: Datsyuk Z, and Kronwall. Only nyquist is young. On the flip side we have Abby, Sheahan, Jurco, Mantha on the way, Nastasiak, Athenisou (spelling), McKee, and the young Dmen, all with good speed and size. if Tuch is our pick next weekend, add another 6-4/225 RW to the mix. That is 8 forwards that are all 6-2/210+. Plus the D: Dekeyser, Smith, Oullett, Sproul, Marchenko, DeHaas, etc..... all again are 6-2/200+. of course we have no idea who turns out,but we seem to be geared better long term to get bigger.

[LeftWinger 4,961]

IMO if the Wings could work out a trade to acquire Kesler and Burrows, there would be NO lack of huslte of finished checks on our team. I know Burrows isn't the player he used to be, but he can still outwork most of the players in the league. I don't know what the price would be, but it wouldn't be too much more than just acquiring Kesler. Burrows wouldn't cost too much...

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

We should be kicking the tires all up and down that Jets team. Kane, Wheeler, Byfuglien, Little, Ladd, Enstrom, Bogosian, Trouba - dear Goc, how do they have all that talent and not even make the playoffs???

Claude Noel was a terrible coach, injuries, Pavelec and no real identity in the bottom 6. The main pieces are there aside from goaltending and solidarity in the bottom 6. I'd take Ladd and Wheeler at F and Bogo from D. No thanks on Kane. Babs would hate him and no way the Jets trade Trouba or I'd take him in a heartbeat and pay lots for him.

I guess my whole point is that I don't believe when thinking of our team we should get into a false dichotomy of skill vs. power. There are other ways to become harder to play against than to try emulating Boston and/or Chicago. We don't have the core to be either of those teams. But we can be harder to play against if we've got size, we work hard, we skate fast, and our engines never stop running. And it so happens that there are guys out there who are available and who play that type of game. To me those guys would do a lot more to give this team an identity (and get it back to contention) than all the big named stars (Thornton, Vanek, Moulson, Richards, etc.) can because they compliment what we've already got on the roster rather than being redundant or opposite of our current lineup. Plus, guys like Kesler, Umberger, O'Reilly are the exact type of guys that Babs loves. They skate hard every shift, are HIGHLY competitive, play solid two way games, and are versatile.

That's how I'd make my personnel decisions this season. 1) Can the guy skate, 2) Does he work hard, 3) Is he a pain the in ass to play against. Any two of the guys I mentioned above plus Niskanen would go a LONG way right now. Of course that's just my opinion and I doubt it ever happens, but I'd love to see it.

Z-Dats-Kesler

Franzen-Weiss-O'Reilly

Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco

Miller-Glendening-Abby

Babcock would drool over that lineup.

Swith Kesler with Moulson qnd I'm in. If the Wings could get O'Reilly I'd s*** rainbows!

[dirtydangles 1,328]

The more I think about it I think Thornton is a bad idea. We would be competing with other teams to trade talented youth of the future for a player that may start to decline at any moment - too much of a gamble (we are essentially trading for a player that will never be better than he is now).

I would rather trade more for a player that could have a long term future with the franchise. Could be a youngish Dman, could be someone like O'Reilly, could be anyone with a long term future. I think Kesler (age 30) is as old as I would entertain trading assets for at this point.

P.S. does O'Reilly have to stay with the Aves for another season after arbitration before being traded again? I remember last time he went through arbitration he couldn't be traded for a while.

[wings4thecup06 504]

It's nice to see more and more people finally admitting that the Wings aren't skilled enough to play the puck possession highly skilled game anymore and that's exactly why we are having such an identity crisis. If you can't outskill your opponent you need to grind them down or simply overpower them. Sadly, this team doesn't have the right players for that but the good thing is, there might be a few available come July 1.

I love this franchise but watching this team play when Z or Pasha having an offnight and the young guns are struggling is really boring. Don't get me wrong every team has an offnight but other teams such as Boston, LA always have some type of energy player to wake the team and the fans up, be it with a fight, a huge check or just blocking shots Gregory Campbell style. We don't have that because our front office still believes in a style that won't work without a ton of skill and I'm not even talking about the guy who made that style possible. The job Babcock has done is really amazing getting this team into the playoffs was huge but the sad truth is, we can no longer count on being a shoe-in each and every season and to be honest the team is having a tougher and tougher team to even make it.

It's nice that a lot of centers might be available this off-season - really didn't expect such a great amount of them - but our biggest need is a #1 defenseman and a top 4 shutdown guy, sadly, nobody seems to be trading those guys nowadays.

I honestly believe the Joe would be rocking again if the Wings would bring a grittier game. Fans love hitting, checks, fights and not only beauty plays.

Good post, but has the front office realised this too?

I would love the Wings to play a more physical style, or at least show that they could stand up for themselves (like Smith has done this year, although he probably should learn not to challenge Chara).

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

Good post, but has the front office realised this too?

I would love the Wings to play a more physical style, or at least show that they could stand up for themselves (like Smith has done this year, although he probably should learn not to challenge Chara).

I couldn't agree more minus the Chara comment.

[Richdg 267]

With draft week finally here, the GM's will gather. Now we shall see if Holland has any magic left. Does he find a top pair Dman? A top 6 Big F. He has said that is the goal. So Ken we will take you at your word. Go do it! Last thing I want to hear is: "we kicked the tires, made a lot of calls, talked to a lot of other teams, but couldn't make it work". There are plenty of teams that need other things as well. The Yotes need scoring. They have a ton of Dmen. The Sens need to reduce payroll-Spezza and Ryan could be in play, Kesler still wants out of van and they need a C plus. Those are teams right off of the top of my head that i can see potential trades with. Get it done Ken! Or retire.

[wings4thecup06 504]

I couldn't agree more minus the Chara comment.

I will say that while Smith is a tough kid, he'd probably get rag-dolled ala Brian McCabe way back when, as would Chara do to most of the league I think. Good on him for standing up for himself though.

[Ekmanc 586]

Hardly the most legit source ever but still...

https://twitter.com/HockeyyInsiderr/status/480714776415186944

https://twitter.com/HockeyyInsiderr/status/480715067843813377

Edited June 22, 2014 by Ekmanc

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

Hardly the most legit source ever but still...

https://twitter.com/HockeyyInsiderr/status/480714776415186944

https://twitter.com/HockeyyInsiderr/status/480715067843813377

As long as it isn't mantha, nyquist jurco or Tatar

[Datsyukian-Deke 722]

Read this and thought it was noteworthy:

Helene St. James of the Detroit Free Press: St. James has been running a series of potential targets for the Red Wings. If the Wings were to go after Coyotes Keith Yandle, they would be looking for at least one of Gustav Nyquist, Tomas Tatar, Tomas Jurco, Anthony Mantha and a high draft pick. The Coyotes could also ask for another player, such as Justin Abdelkader, Darren Helm or Jakub Kindl.

http://mynhltraderumors.com

I would pull the trigger if it was Jurco and any of Abby, Helm, or Kindl and a first rounder.

[Ekmanc 586]

I would much rather they go hard after Kane than jumbo Joe.

[kipwinger 8,524]

Read this and thought it was noteworthy:

Helene St. James of the Detroit Free Press: St. James has been running a series of potential targets for the Red Wings. If the Wings were to go after Coyotes Keith Yandle, they would be looking for at least one of Gustav Nyquist, Tomas Tatar, Tomas Jurco, Anthony Mantha and a high draft pick. The Coyotes could also ask for another player, such as Justin Abdelkader, Darren Helm or Jakub Kindl.

http://mynhltraderumors.com

I would pull the trigger if it was Jurco and any of Abby, Helm, or Kindl and a first rounder.

We finally get a big scoring winger, I'm not moving that kid until I know what I've got in him. I'd rather lose Nyquist or Tatar than Jurco. He'll end up better than both in a few years when he's their age. Nyquist, on the other hand, has the highest value he'll ever have. Riding an unsustainable shooting percentage into "the next big thing" territory. He'd be the guy I'd move, but not for Yandle (who is awesome but too expensive).

Anyway long story short, moving Jurco is a bad idea. Big, fast, skilled, physical, scoring forwards don't come along often. Small, skilled, euros with puck skills are a dime a dozen.

[T.Low 1,011]

With draft week finally here, the GM's will gather. Now we shall see if Holland has any magic left. Get it done Ken! Or retire.

There hasn't been any urgency or desperation in Hollands game the last few years...

[Dabura 12,207]

There's no identity crisis. There's no philosophical quandary. We simply don't have enough top-level talent. Our top four has gone from Lidstrom-Rafalski/Kronwall-Stuart to Kronwall-Ericsson/DeKeyser-Smith. Our top six has gone from Datsyuk in his prime, Zetterberg in his prime, Franzen in his prime, Hossa in his prime, Holmstrom, and Filppula to Datsyuk at 35 (and coming off an injury-ravaged season), Zetterberg at 33 (and coming off an injury-ravaged season), Franzen's corpse at 34 (and coming off an injury-ravaged season), the ghost of Stephen Weiss (RIP), Abdelkader, and...Nyquist? And Jimmy Howard has never made it past the second round.

[Richdg 267]

Read this and thought it was noteworthy:

Helene St. James of the Detroit Free Press: St. James has been running a series of potential targets for the Red Wings. If the Wings were to go after Coyotes Keith Yandle, they would be looking for at least one of Gustav Nyquist, Tomas Tatar, Tomas Jurco, Anthony Mantha and a high draft pick. The Coyotes could also ask for another player, such as Justin Abdelkader, Darren Helm or Jakub Kindl.

http://mynhltraderumors.com

I would pull the trigger if it was Jurco and any of Abby, Helm, or Kindl and a first rounder.

we have been rumored to be after Yandle for years. If I could get him for Tatar, Helm and Kindl-done deal! The rest we should keep or use in better deals.

[kipwinger 8,524]

There's no identity crisis. There's no philosophical quandary. We simply don't have enough top-level talent. Our top four has gone from Lidstrom-Rafalski/Kronwall-Stuart to Kronwall-Ericsson/DeKeyser-Smith. Our top six has gone from Datsyuk in his prime, Zetterberg in his prime, Franzen in his prime, Hossa in his prime, Holmstrom, and Filppula to Datsyuk at 35 (and coming off an injury-ravaged season), Zetterberg at 33 (and coming off an injury-ravaged season), Franzen's corpse at 34 (and coming off an injury-ravaged season), the ghost of Stephen Weiss (RIP), Abdelkader, and...Nyquist? And Jimmy Howard has never made it past the second round.

Wouldn't the failure to have the roster necessary to carry out your gameplan constitute an identity crisis? Necessitating a change in roster or a change in gameplan in order to rectify it? Certainly a team full of guys who can't play the style the coach, GM, and scouts are promoting would fall into that category for me. I agree we don't have high end talent right now, but if we go out and get it, and it doesn't compliment what we've already got/is suited for a style of game we don't play, then I don't think it'll help much.

Loading up on talent without having an identity isn't always the best thing in the world. Which is probably the reason why Columbus is a better team WITHOUT Carter, Nash, Gaborik, and Horton than they've ever been with them. They've got an identity now. Every name that gets bandied about is met with an "oooooh aaaaah" from myself and every other Wings fan. But it might be worth thinking about whether these guys will actually fit with what we've got now, and fit with what we want to be in a few years. Because sadly, aside from some fancy individual stats, adding a guy like Joe Thornton isn't going to help us. We don't have the team, system, coach, or philosophy to maximize his incredible talent.

[wings4thecup06 504]

Read this and thought it was noteworthy:

Helene St. James of the Detroit Free Press: St. James has been running a series of potential targets for the Red Wings. If the Wings were to go after Coyotes Keith Yandle, they would be looking for at least one of Gustav Nyquist, Tomas Tatar, Tomas Jurco, Anthony Mantha and a high draft pick. The Coyotes could also ask for another player, such as Justin Abdelkader, Darren Helm or Jakub Kindl.

http://mynhltraderumors.com

I would pull the trigger if it was Jurco and any of Abby, Helm, or Kindl and a first rounder.

we have been rumored to be after Yandle for years. If I could get him for Tatar, Helm and Kindl-done deal! The rest we should keep or use in better deals.

Even though all this talk of trades is relatively exciting, it also makes me really nervous because I don't know who KH thinks is truly expendable here.

If it were me, I think I'd have to say no to Jumbo Joe simply because I don't think at his age it's the right kind of thing we're looking for. Don't get me wrong, he's still a top player, but when we need to score goals surely we should add a big scoring winger instead?

My no trade list would definitely include Tatar, Nyquist, Jurco, Sheahan and Mantha, and I definitely wouldn't trade either Helm or Abdelkader.

The latter two have speed grit and some size that provide the intangibles that every team needs and we currently don't have enough of. Getting rid of them would decimate us even further.

I think I'd be more inclined to part with Nyquist actually than Tatar, as Tats plays with more intensity and jump on the ice and I think that's really a quality you just can't teach. It's a gamble trading Nyquist, but Kip is probably right - he might be at his highest possible value he may ever reach right now.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

Anyone willing to trade jurco is crazy.

Kip.

Very well said.

Edited June 22, 2014 by jimmyemeryhunter

[Shaman 713]

Anyone willing to trade jurco is crazy.

Kip.

Very well said.

Jurco is pretty overvalued at this point, I have a feeling that Pulkkinen will displace him soon in the depth chart.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

Jurco is pretty overvalued at this point, I have a feeling that Pulkkinen will displace him soon in the depth chart.

If you're here, then who's guarding the bridge?

[Richdg 267]

Even though all this talk of trades is relatively exciting, it also makes me really nervous because I don't know who KH thinks is truly expendable here.

If it were me, I think I'd have to say no to Jumbo Joe simply because I don't think at his age it's the right kind of thing we're looking for. Don't get me wrong, he's still a top player, but when we need to score goals surely we should add a big scoring winger instead?

My no trade list would definitely include Tatar, Nyquist, Jurco, Sheahan and Mantha, and I definitely wouldn't trade either Helm or Abdelkader.

The latter two have speed grit and some size that provide the intangibles that every team needs and we currently don't have enough of. Getting rid of them would decimate us even further.

I think I'd be more inclined to part with Nyquist actually than Tatar, as Tats plays with more intensity and jump on the ice and I think that's really a quality you just can't teach. It's a gamble trading Nyquist, but Kip is probably right - he might be at his highest possible value he may ever reach right now.

You realize you just talked yourself out of making any trades. To get you have to give. Other teams are not going to trade us quality players for our crap. Now, where do we have extra bodies? I keep one of Helm and Glendening-they are the same guy. Helm would be who i move because he has more trade value. Andersson can be moved but he is a throw in piece. Tatar, Pulkinnen, Nyquist are all very similar in skill and value. 1 maybe 2 of them can be moved in the right deals.

That means we have Helm, say tatar, Pulkinnen, Andersson, Ferraro, Kindl, and Almqvist to make 1 or 2 deals with.