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Next Seasons Needs/Team Future


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#2141 VM1138

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 08:56 PM

The more I think about Thornton the more excited I get. He could be the piece, If we improve the defense, that gets us into contention. Depending on who goes the other way.
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#2142 dirtydangles

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 09:06 PM

Realistically what is a fair trade for Thornton?

 

Tatar + Ouellet + 1st + Kindl (cap dump)?

 

Tatar + Ericsson/Smith?


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#2143 Dabura

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 09:43 PM

So, wait. Are the Oilers seriously considering trading Perron? I'd thought it was just a joke that had gathered some steam on the interwebz and the social mediaz. Maybe not?

 

The Case for the Edmonton Oilers trading David Perron [David Staples, Edmonton Journal]

 

I would love to have David Perron on our team. And Nurse or Klefbom.

 

We're loaded with players the Oilers would love to have. Kick these mofoing tires, Kenny.


Edited by Dabura, 20 June 2014 - 09:46 PM.

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#2144 kipwinger

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 10:07 PM

Another question I've been asking myself when it comes to what we need/want this offseason is this:  What kind of  team are we, and what kind of team do we want to be?

 

It's clear that there's a lot of talent available this offseason.  A whole lot of teams aren't happy with the outcomes of their seasons and are looking to shake up their rosters.  But just because a guy is talented, or has played the right role in the past, doesn't mean he's a fit.  For a few years now I've felt we were a team without an identity.  Not skilled enough to be a skill team, not gritty enough to be a gritty team, and not big enough to be a power team.  Now we've got some young talent coming along which displays some skill, and was drafted as such.  Do we keep going in that direction and try to overwhelm teams with pure skill?  Do we augment it with power?  Do we augment it with grittiness?  

 

Personally, I think we can't expect playoff success on pure skill. Teams keep us to the outside and block shots.  And we don't have the core go completely over to power like a Boston or Anahiem (whose best players are huge).  I think the smartest move is to go gritty.  Replace just a little bit of high end skill for fast, tough, rough guys.  Be like a better version of Montreal or Columbus.  Which would preclude acquiring guys like Thornton or Perron.  But that's just me. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#2145 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 10:14 PM

Another question I've been asking myself when it comes to what we need/want this offseason is this:  What kind of  team are we, and what kind of team do we want to be?

 

It's clear that there's a lot of talent available this offseason.  A whole lot of teams aren't happy with the outcomes of their seasons and are looking to shake up their rosters.  But just because a guy is talented, or has played the right role in the past, doesn't mean he's a fit.  For a few years now I've felt we were a team without an identity.  Not skilled enough to be a skill team, not gritty enough to be a gritty team, and not big enough to be a power team.  Now we've got some young talent coming along which displays some skill, and was drafted as such.  Do we keep going in that direction and try to overwhelm teams with pure skill?  Do we augment it with power?  Do we augment it with grittiness?  

 

Personally, I think we can't expect playoff success on pure skill. Teams keep us to the outside and block shots.  And we don't have the core go completely over to power like a Boston or Anahiem (whose best players are huge).  I think the smartest move is to go gritty.  Replace just a little bit of high end skill for fast, tough, rough guys.  Be like a better version of Montreal or Columbus.  Which would preclude acquiring guys like Thornton or Perron.  But that's just me. 

 

Wholeheartedly agree about the lack of identity.

 

The Wings have been clinging to the puck possession game but no longer had enough talent on the roster to make that work effectively, especially on the blueline.  But they aren't really built for any clear alternative.



#2146 Datsyukian-Deke

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 10:29 PM

I've been thinking about what has been so frustrating for me these past few off seasons and I think we have been so spoiled in the past to get that big player or big blockbuster deal that we think it's necessary to get that or the offseason is a bust. I think we all crave Holland to just have one throw of the die and take a risk on a big trade deal. Every move he makes is so calculated and cautious and although that is great most of the time, you can't always be safe if you want to win a cup. You have to shake things up every once in a while.

#2147 kipwinger

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 10:52 PM

 

Wholeheartedly agree about the lack of identity.

 

The Wings have been clinging to the puck possession game but no longer had enough talent on the roster to make that work effectively, especially on the blueline.  But they aren't really built for any clear alternative.

 

And the thing is, we might be moving back toward that style (high skill) but  I don't know if the league is the same anymore.  I mean, I don't think we're much (if any) less skilled than the 2008 team up front.  We lost Sammy, Filppula, and Hudler, but have gained Tatar, Nyquist, Jurco, Sheahan.  It's pretty clear that our current defense is not nearly as skilled, and I think that's the point of KH wanting to address it this offseason.  But even if he does, even if you could build the 2008 Wings all over again, would that team win now?  I don't know the answer to that question.  But it does seem like even the skill teams (NYR and Chicago) are a more even mix of skill and grit than our last Cup team.  So it makes me wonder if the making over the back end (while totally necessary) will be enough if we don't get a little harder to play against, and a little bit physically tougher up front?

 

What got me started thinking about this was Ryan O'Reilly.  I was wondering to myself whether I'd rather have O'Reilly or Nyquist.  Same ages (roughly), both defensively responsible, both offensively capable (Nyquist perhaps even more so).  But I view O'Reilly as being so much more difficult to play against because he's a physically tougher guy.  I'm not saying that I think we should trade Nyquist for O'Reilly.  Realistically it will never happen so why bother wishing.  But I am saying that I don't think we'll find success again until we gain a little bit more physical toughness (in the O'Reilly, not Shawn Thornton) sense.  And that may, at some point, have to come as the expense of Nyquist-like skill. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#2148 T.Low

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 11:09 PM

Realistically what is a fair trade for Thornton?
 
Tatar + Ouellet + 1st + Kindl (cap dump)?
 
Tatar + Ericsson/Smith?




The Kesler to Pitt was supposedly done until Aquaman stepped in a nixed it.

Granted, it was Gillis, but he was willing to accept Brandon Sutter (3C), one of either young Dman Depres or Dumoulin, and a first. So how could he not take Weiss, one of our young D, and a pick?

Thornton can't be worth much more, if any.

#2149 Nevermind

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 11:28 PM

What got me started thinking about this was Ryan O'Reilly.  I was wondering to myself whether I'd rather have O'Reilly or Nyquist.  Same ages (roughly), both defensively responsible, both offensively capable (Nyquist perhaps even more so).  But I view O'Reilly as being so much more difficult to play against because he's a physically tougher guy.  I'm not saying that I think we should trade Nyquist for O'Reilly.  Realistically it will never happen so why bother wishing.  But I am saying that I don't think we'll find success again until we gain a little bit more physical toughness (in the O'Reilly, not Shawn Thornton) sense.  And that may, at some point, have to come as the expense of Nyquist-like skill. 


O'Reilly is not a physical player. He had all of two penalty minutes and 22 credited hits last season. Even Nyqyist had 18 hits in about 25 fewer games.

That said, O'Reilly does have tremendous hustle and defensive instincts. But I doubt that's what you meant by "difficult to play against".

#2150 F.Michael

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 11:31 PM

Another question I've been asking myself when it comes to what we need/want this offseason is this:  What kind of  team are we, and what kind of team do we want to be?

 

It's clear that there's a lot of talent available this offseason.  A whole lot of teams aren't happy with the outcomes of their seasons and are looking to shake up their rosters.  But just because a guy is talented, or has played the right role in the past, doesn't mean he's a fit.  For a few years now I've felt we were a team without an identity.  Not skilled enough to be a skill team, not gritty enough to be a gritty team, and not big enough to be a power team.  Now we've got some young talent coming along which displays some skill, and was drafted as such.  Do we keep going in that direction and try to overwhelm teams with pure skill?  Do we augment it with power?  Do we augment it with grittiness?  

 

Personally, I think we can't expect playoff success on pure skill. Teams keep us to the outside and block shots.  And we don't have the core go completely over to power like a Boston or Anahiem (whose best players are huge).  I think the smartest move is to go gritty.  Replace just a little bit of high end skill for fast, tough, rough guys.  Be like a better version of Montreal or Columbus.  Which would preclude acquiring guys like Thornton or Perron.  But that's just me. 

 

 

Wholeheartedly agree about the lack of identity.

 

The Wings have been clinging to the puck possession game but no longer had enough talent on the roster to make that work effectively, especially on the blueline.  But they aren't really built for any clear alternative.

Not to be a pisser, but we sorta do have an 'identity'.....Smaller - skilled - puck possessing - non-confrontational - 'reloading'.

 

It may not be what we want, but it's what we are...I agree with you guys; I'd like to see this team get a bit tougher to play against, and having a 3rd/4th line that'll plaster opponents along the boards, and drops the mitts whenever it's needed (the broken record that I am).



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#2151 kipwinger

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 11:37 PM

O'Reilly is not a physical player. He had all of two penalty minutes and 22 credited hits last season. Even Nyqyist had 18 hits in about 25 fewer games.

That said, O'Reilly does have tremendous hustle and defensive instincts. But I doubt that's what you meant by "difficult to play against".

 

That's exactly what I meant by difficult to play against actually lol.  Not penalties, or fighting, or whatever.  I mean guys who are hard to play against because they go balls to the walls, aren't timid, and can't be intimidated. 

 

An example of that I'm talking about was in this years Montreal v. Boston series.  Look at a guy like Dale Weise.  He skated his ass off, worked hard, finished checks, and was generally hard for Boston to deal with.  All this despite his not being a fighter or penalty taker.  Another example is Dubinsky for Columbus.  Or Helm for us.  Remember Helm against Phoenix a couple years back?  Jovanovski had no way of dealing with Helm's forecheck.  It completely ruined his series.  O'Reilly is hard to play against like that.  So is Kesler.  So is Umberger.  These are the types of guys I'd be targeting.  Not the Thorntons (Joe or Shawn), Perrons, Vaneks, Moulsons, etc.  We've got the skill already.  And we don't have the makeup to switch over to full on power (e.g. Boston, Anaheim, LA, San Jose).  But we could be a better Montreal or Columbus (as I've already said).


Edited by kipwinger, 20 June 2014 - 11:39 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#2152 Nevermind

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 12:01 AM

 

That's exactly what I meant by difficult to play against actually lol.  Not penalties, or fighting, or whatever.  I mean guys who are hard to play against because they go balls to the walls, aren't timid, and can't be intimidated. 

 

An example of that I'm talking about was in this years Montreal v. Boston series.  Look at a guy like Dale Weise.  He skated his ass off, worked hard, finished checks, and was generally hard for Boston to deal with.  All this despite his not being a fighter or penalty taker.  Another example is Dubinsky for Columbus.  Or Helm for us.  Remember Helm against Phoenix a couple years back?  Jovanovski had no way of dealing with Helm's forecheck.  It completely ruined his series.  O'Reilly is hard to play against like that.  So is Kesler.  So is Umberger.  These are the types of guys I'd be targeting.  Not the Thorntons (Joe or Shawn), Perrons, Vaneks, Moulsons, etc.  We've got the skill already.  And we don't have the makeup to switch over to full on power (e.g. Boston, Anaheim, LA, San Jose).  But we could be a better Montreal or Columbus (as I've already said).

 

Then I agree. Even though O'Reilly doesn't finish very many checks, he's definitely difficult to play against due his speed and hustle.

 

I originally thought you meant someone more like Dubinsky, actually. Someone who has a pest-like mentality to go along with a great defensive conscience.


Edited by Nevermind, 21 June 2014 - 12:07 AM.


#2153 kipwinger

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 12:20 AM

 

 

 

Then I agree. Even though O'Reilly doesn't finish very many checks, he's definitely difficult to play against due his speed and hustle.

 

I originally thought you meant someone more like Dubinsky, actually. Someone who has a pest-like mentality to go along with a great defensive conscience.

 

I guess my whole point is that I don't believe when thinking of our team we should get into a false dichotomy of skill vs. power.  There are other ways to become harder to play against than to try emulating Boston and/or Chicago.  We don't have the core to be either of those teams.  But we can be harder to play against if we've got size, we work hard, we skate fast, and our engines never stop running.  And it so happens that there are guys out there who are available and who play that type of game.  To me those guys would do a lot more to give this team an identity (and get it back to contention) than all the big named stars (Thornton, Vanek, Moulson, Richards, etc.) can because they compliment what we've already got on the roster rather than being redundant or opposite of our current lineup.  Plus, guys like Kesler, Umberger, O'Reilly are the exact type of guys that Babs loves.  They skate hard every shift, are HIGHLY competitive, play solid two way games, and are versatile. 

 

That's how I'd make my personnel decisions this season.  1)  Can the guy skate, 2) Does he work hard, 3) Is he a pain the in ass to play against.  Any two of the guys I mentioned above plus Niskanen would go a LONG way right now.  Of course that's just my opinion and I doubt it ever happens, but I'd love to see it. 

 

Z-Dats-Kesler

Franzen-Weiss-O'Reilly

Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco

Miller-Glendening-Abby

 

Babcock would drool over that lineup. 


Edited by kipwinger, 21 June 2014 - 12:22 AM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#2154 wings4thecup06

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 04:00 AM

 

I guess my whole point is that I don't believe when thinking of our team we should get into a false dichotomy of skill vs. power.  There are other ways to become harder to play against than to try emulating Boston and/or Chicago.  We don't have the core to be either of those teams.  But we can be harder to play against if we've got size, we work hard, we skate fast, and our engines never stop running.  And it so happens that there are guys out there who are available and who play that type of game.  To me those guys would do a lot more to give this team an identity (and get it back to contention) than all the big named stars (Thornton, Vanek, Moulson, Richards, etc.) can because they compliment what we've already got on the roster rather than being redundant or opposite of our current lineup.  Plus, guys like Kesler, Umberger, O'Reilly are the exact type of guys that Babs loves.  They skate hard every shift, are HIGHLY competitive, play solid two way games, and are versatile. 

 

That's how I'd make my personnel decisions this season.  1)  Can the guy skate, 2) Does he work hard, 3) Is he a pain the in ass to play against.  Any two of the guys I mentioned above plus Niskanen would go a LONG way right now.  Of course that's just my opinion and I doubt it ever happens, but I'd love to see it. 

 

Z-Dats-Kesler

Franzen-Weiss-O'Reilly

Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco

Miller-Glendening-Abby

 

Babcock would drool over that lineup. 

 

That has pretty much epitomised in my head what I think we need this offseason. I couldn't agree more, and it's why when I heard that Kesler was available I thought the Wings should try and get him. If we look back to our cup winners, most of them have been because we blended that great skill with size and grit, along with some terrific puck movers on the backend. 

 

If I'm Holland I'm going for a top 6 with size and work ethic who is a b****h to play against and a good puck moving D man. Would a guy like Thornton help? Meh, most certainly, but I don't think he's the key to getting this team back up there with the big boys. 


temp 1

 


#2155 Dabura

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 04:26 PM

What about Brent Burns?


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#2156 frankgrimes

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 05:10 PM

It's nice to see more and more people finally admitting that the Wings aren't skilled enough to play the puck possession highly skilled game anymore and that's exactly why we are having such an identity crisis. If you can't outskill your opponent you need to grind them down or simply overpower them. Sadly, this team doesn't have the right players for that but the good thing is, there might be a few available come July 1.

 

I love this franchise but watching this team play when Z or Pasha having an offnight and the young guns are struggling is really boring. Don't get me wrong every team has an offnight but other teams such as Boston, LA always have some type of energy player to wake the team and the fans up, be it with a fight, a huge check or just blocking shots Gregory Campbell style. We don't have that because our front office still believes in a style that won't work without a ton of skill and I'm not even talking about the guy who made that style possible. The job Babcock has done is really amazing getting this team into the playoffs was huge but the sad truth is, we can no longer count on being a shoe-in each and every season and to be honest the team is having a tougher and tougher team to even make it.

 

It's nice that a lot of centers might be available this off-season - really didn't expect such a great amount of them - but our biggest need is a #1 defenseman and a top 4 shutdown guy, sadly, nobody seems to be trading those guys nowadays.

 

I honestly believe the Joe would be rocking again if the Wings would bring a grittier game. Fans love hitting, checks, fights and not only beauty plays.

 

The Oilers would be really stupid if they decide to let Perron go he did very well and if I remember correctly was their best goalscorer.

 

So to sum it up, our biggest needs are:

1. change of gamestyle

2. #1 and top 4 defender

3. center depth


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#2157 Richdg

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 05:37 PM

Kip, I agree with your question about identity. Who are the RW? We have neither the skill/speed to play a puck control system, nor the size/toughness to bang away. Either system works btw IF you have the players for it. if we look back over the past 20 years we see both systems/styles winning. The Devils won 3 cups and made a fourth with almost no offense. Played great D and had a great G. we won with both systems. The 95-02 teas was not a puck possession team. it was both. yes the Russian 5 played great possession, but the rest played far more dump/chase and very physical.

So who are we, and maybe more important, which fits us better long term? I think the size/toughness model works better long term. Yes we have some great possessors of the puck, but most of them are old: Datsyuk Z, and Kronwall. Only nyquist is young. On the flip side we have Abby, Sheahan, Jurco, Mantha on the way, Nastasiak, Athenisou (spelling), McKee, and the young Dmen, all with good speed and size. if Tuch is our pick next weekend, add another 6-4/225 RW to the mix. That is 8 forwards that are all 6-2/210+. Plus the D: Dekeyser, Smith, Oullett, Sproul, Marchenko, DeHaas, etc..... all again are 6-2/200+. of course we have no idea who turns out,but we seem to be geared better long term to get bigger.



#2158 LeftWinger

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 07:05 PM

IMO if the Wings could work out a trade to acquire Kesler and Burrows, there would be NO lack of huslte of finished checks on our team.  I know Burrows isn't the player he used to be, but he can still outwork most of the players in the league.  I don't know what the price would be, but it wouldn't be too much more than just acquiring Kesler. Burrows wouldn't cost too much...


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#2159 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 07:21 PM

We should be kicking the tires all up and down that Jets team. Kane, Wheeler, Byfuglien, Little, Ladd, Enstrom, Bogosian, Trouba - dear Goc, how do they have all that talent and not even make the playoffs???


Claude Noel was a terrible coach, injuries, Pavelec and no real identity in the bottom 6. The main pieces are there aside from goaltending and solidarity in the bottom 6. I'd take Ladd and Wheeler at F and Bogo from D. No thanks on Kane. Babs would hate him and no way the Jets trade Trouba or I'd take him in a heartbeat and pay lots for him.

 
I guess my whole point is that I don't believe when thinking of our team we should get into a false dichotomy of skill vs. power.  There are other ways to become harder to play against than to try emulating Boston and/or Chicago.  We don't have the core to be either of those teams.  But we can be harder to play against if we've got size, we work hard, we skate fast, and our engines never stop running.  And it so happens that there are guys out there who are available and who play that type of game.  To me those guys would do a lot more to give this team an identity (and get it back to contention) than all the big named stars (Thornton, Vanek, Moulson, Richards, etc.) can because they compliment what we've already got on the roster rather than being redundant or opposite of our current lineup.  Plus, guys like Kesler, Umberger, O'Reilly are the exact type of guys that Babs loves.  They skate hard every shift, are HIGHLY competitive, play solid two way games, and are versatile. 
 
That's how I'd make my personnel decisions this season.  1)  Can the guy skate, 2) Does he work hard, 3) Is he a pain the in ass to play against.  Any two of the guys I mentioned above plus Niskanen would go a LONG way right now.  Of course that's just my opinion and I doubt it ever happens, but I'd love to see it. 
 
Z-Dats-Kesler
Franzen-Weiss-O'Reilly
Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco
Miller-Glendening-Abby
 
Babcock would drool over that lineup. 


Swith Kesler with Moulson qnd I'm in. If the Wings could get O'Reilly I'd s*** rainbows!

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#2160 dirtydangles

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 11:21 PM

The more I think about it I think Thornton is a bad idea. We would be competing with other teams to trade talented youth of the future for a player that may start to decline at any moment - too much of a gamble (we are essentially trading for a player that will never be better than he is now).

 

I would rather trade more for a player that could have a long term future with the franchise. Could be a youngish Dman, could be someone like O'Reilly, could be anyone with a long term future. I think Kesler (age 30) is as old as I would entertain trading assets for at this point. 


P.S. does O'Reilly have to stay with the Aves for another season after arbitration before being traded again? I remember last time he went through arbitration he couldn't be traded for a while.


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