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Next Seasons Needs/Team Future


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#2481 joshy207

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 07:52 PM

 

I don't see mediocrity as being acceptable by management what so ever. They are doing as much building from within as they can, and the right moves will be made to fill holes on the roster when the players we do have show they can compete and are capable of making a run, while pieces will be added along the way when possible. It is just unfortunate that some UFA's said no. (which is the right way to do things in the cap era). We just don't have the luxury of lottery picks to stack the prospect pool, and because of that, developing players takes some time. And I get it, some fans aren't as patient as others. That's what 20 years of success will do to a fanbase. It becomes the expectation. 

 

When it comes to UFA's, it isn't like they spend the last year of their contracts scouting teams to see where they should go. They just look at the big picture and see a Red Wings team that had consecutive years off a win/loss record getting worse. But when you look passed that, you see a lot of realgud, young talent that keep improving and are gradually taking on bigger roles on the team. I'd bet money that this coming season is where the upswing begins. Once that happens, this franchise will become a place players want to come once again. These things just take time.

 

Singing a guy like Quincey just allows Holland to buy time to get that top 4 righty this team needs without having to throw too many rookie defensemen into the fire at once on an already young squad that are still learning the game at this level. Great times are coming. The team has a nice blend of vets and kids up front. They'll soon get there on the back end as well. Howard got passed his first year on a new contract, where it is not uncommon for players to struggle. Especially with goalies. But almost just as common is the fact that these players bounce back. We also have Hank who finally got his back fixed. I feel he will have a monster season. In the end, I think a lot of people's frustrations will begin to subside this season.

 

The way I see it, Holland is reluctant to give the younger players a chance at all.  He leaves that as the last possible resort in most cases.  If the Wings hadn't gone through all the injuries in 2012/13, we would not have seen Tatar, Nyquist, or Andersson at all.  It would have been Helm, Bertuzzi, and Samuelsson.  Lashoff wasn't in the plans, but they had to call him up and use him a lot.  The Wings didn't seem to have any plans on using DeKeyser when they signed him, he was set to be GR-bound after a few days, but an opening presented itself and he had practiced well.  In 13/14, we would not have seen Sheahan, Jurco, or Glendening at all, Nyquist may have been buried in the minors all season, and Tatar, Andersson, DeKeyser, and Lashoff wouldn't have had their previous experience.  This summer, Almquist is leaving for the KHL without having a chance to show whether he is or isn't capable of playing in the NHL.  Callahan and Ferraro are out of waiver exemptions and have 1 and 4 NHL games, respectively, on their resumes.

Lately, I think Holland's moves are the comfortable ones for him, not the "right" moves.  I'll skip the misery of the 2012 off-season, but that wasn't his only shortcoming.  He gave up a 2nd-round pick, a valued prospect, and a depth forward in exchange for Legwand, who turned out to be a rental... yes, they needed a center for a few games, but he ended up being a 4th-line winger as soon as those centers started to come back.  was it worth both the pick and the prospect?  That trade helped keep the playoff streak alive, so maybe it was worth it financially and for pride, but it gives them two less pieces with which to build.  Re-signing Bertuzzi back when he did, in February 2012, was poorly timed IMO, but again, it's someone Holland was comfortable with.  Keeping Cleary around last year, when he'd been awful for 2 seasons and the club had no roster or payroll space to do so, was a bad move... and now they're talking about ANOTHER contract?  Keeping Quincey was a knee-jerk reaction to failing on every free agent they talked to.  Yes, it "buys time" for either Holland to make another move (he won't) or for the prospect D to develop a little more, but unless there's a corresponding move where Kindl is shipped out of town, it's not a good deal.

I don't think there will be an upswing this year.  A healthy Datsyuk and Zetterberg should help, but if you look at it, last year, with both in the lineup earlier in the year, the Wings weren't in a playoff position.  It's after Datsyuk went out that they started to make their push, and solidified that position with Zetterberg out also.  They did that on the shoulders of a motivated Franzen (after someone pissed him off with a cheapshot) and the young guys that Holland didn't want in Detroit.

Unless a move, or moves, are made later in the summer, we're looking at almost exactly the same roster that lost to Boston in 5 games, struggled to score, and couldn't handle the better opponent.  There are no additions, only subtractions--Legwand, Bertuzzi, and possibly Alfredsson and Cleary.  How is that inspiring at all?


Other GMs also make moves just to make them and don't get any better, they just look different.

 

Sometimes different is all it takes.  New voice, fresh blood, different look.

 

Doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results?  That's the definition of insanity.



#2482 marcaractac

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 03:58 PM

 

Doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results?  That's the definition of insanity.

 

This would also assuming that players have the exact same season each and every year, which is not the case. Younger players will keep getting better. Dead weight has been trimmed from the lineup. Hank's back was fixed. Results this year will be different. The team will improve. 



#2483 Son of a Wing

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 06:09 PM

Doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results?  That's the definition of insanity.

 

I've never understood this saying as it's not even close to the definition...

 

We're building a system and it takes time. Taking a look at the players coming through our system I'd say it's working.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#2484 dirtydangles

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 06:49 PM

 

We're building a system and it takes time. Taking a look at the players coming through our system I'd say it's working.

Thing is - the only thing we are doing right is drafting and developing. There are many other components of team management such as:

- conditioning (injuries)

- trading

- signing free agents

- etc.

And we are failing in every category right now other than drafting and developing. 


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#2485 Son of a Wing

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 07:22 PM

Thing is - the only thing we are doing right is drafting and developing. There are many other components of team management such as:

- conditioning (injuries)

- trading

- signing free agents

- etc.

And we are failing in every category right now other than drafting and developing. 

 

I honestly think they are trying to build and maintain a culture here where players feel safe and appreciated.  Where if they have go through a slump, they won't fear being traded or instantly replaced.

 

Obviously they go to extremes at times.(Cleary) But sometimes the message sent can have a more profound impact down the road than the immediate repercussions.

 

I'm sure many believe that fear can motivate a player but I don't think that's a stable way of doing business.  I just don't see us trading roster players unless there's an issue with attitude or commitment or just too many bodies.

 

We definitely struck out this year in free agency.  No looking past that.  That's on management.  Injuries...that's a tough thing to place blame on.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#2486 Datsyukian-Deke

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 07:23 PM

 
I've never understood this saying as it's not even close to the definition...
 
We're building a system and it takes time. Taking a look at the players coming through our system I'd say it's working.


I'm pretty sure it's a quote from Einstein so it can't be too far off lol

#2487 Son of a Wing

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 07:25 PM

I'm pretty sure it's a quote from Einstein so it can't be too far off lol

 

That's actually a myth...  ;)


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#2488 joshy207

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 07:35 PM

 

I honestly think they are trying to build and maintain a culture here where players feel safe and appreciated.  Where if they have go through a slump, they won't fear being traded or instantly replaced.

 

Obviously they go to extremes at times.(Cleary) But sometimes the message sent can have a more profound impact down the road than the immediate repercussions.

 

I'm sure many believe that fear can motivate a player but I don't think that's a stable way of doing business.  I just don't see us trading roster players unless there's an issue with attitude or commitment or just too many bodies.

 

We definitely struck out this year in free agency.  No looking past that.  That's on management.  Injuries...that's a tough thing to place blame on.

 

And in my opinion, the message that sends is "It's ok to underperform.  We don't demand your very best every night.  Your job is safe here, no matter what."  Which, in my opinion, can be far more toxic than making changes.


 

That's actually a myth...  ;)

 

Either way, it's not smart...



#2489 Euro_Twins

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 09:19 PM

 
And in my opinion, the message that sends is "It's ok to underperform.  We don't demand your very best every night.  Your job is safe here, no matter what."  Which, in my opinion, can be far more toxic than making changes.

 
Either way, it's not smart...


Exactly. For instance if I punch you in the face and you're not unconscious it's not insane to think if I punch you 10 more times you will become unconscious.

#2490 Son of a Wing

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 09:21 PM

 

And in my opinion, the message that sends is "It's ok to underperform.  We don't demand your very best every night.  Your job is safe here, no matter what."  Which, in my opinion, can be far more toxic than making changes.

 

 

I don't think that's the result at all.  Tough choices get made. People get sat when it counts and even waived. It's just not as knee-jerk in Detroit.

 

Bertuzzi, Sammy and Cleary played a whopping 1 game combined in the playoffs.  Kindl was in the press box by the end. Andersson barely touched the ice.

 

As long as we make the playoffs, I don't think they'll question those methods during the regular season.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#2491 DeGraa55

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 09:22 PM

 
I don't think that's the result at all.  Tough choices get made. People get sat when it counts and even waived. It's just not as knee-jerk in Detroit.
 
Bertuzzi, Sammy and Cleary played a whopping 1 game combined in the playoffs.  Kindl was in the press box by the end. Andersson barely touched the ice.
 
As long as we make the playoffs, I don't think they'll question those methods during the regular season.


One game more then they should've. They didn't earn it.

#2492 Son of a Wing

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 09:30 PM

One game more then they should've. They didn't earn it.

 

Actually Bertuzzi did deserve that game.  More so than Andersson deserved his.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#2493 marcaractac

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 09:41 PM

Thing is - the only thing we are doing right is drafting and developing. There are many other components of team management such as:

- conditioning (injuries)

- trading

- signing free agents

- etc.

And we are failing in every category right now other than drafting and developing. 

 

Conditioning: most injuries were from the old guys that didn't play a game. Out side of that, you had Helm with his freak bad luck, Hank with a bad back that was lingering for a few years (but is now finally fixed!), Weiss trying to play through an injury which has made it a lot worse, then just unlucky injuries to guys like Dekeyser. Datsyuk's injuries were the most concerning, but the extra long summer I'm sure will do him wonders as well. So with the old guys gone, Hank, Weiss, and Helm healthy, any injuries this season should be those that can be overcome. Should be a lot less pulled groins this season. 

 

Trading: Moves are made when they make sense. Why trade prospects/picks now when many of the kids on the roster still have some improving left to do? Babcock has said himself that teams ready to make a run makes trades for the final pieces of the puzzle. The Wings aren't quite there yet. They will be. Making trades for missing pieces now just hinders the future. Build as much from within as possible first, THEN make trades. Why make trades now when some holes can be filled from within just by getting more experience? Just thins out the prospect pool for the franchise down the road, meaning we'd just have to deal with yet another reload in a few years. The team is building for long term success in the cap world. Be patient.

 

Signing UFA's: When this team is on the upswing again, it will once again become a place people want to play. Much like the fans who are calling for the team to tank the season, all UFA's see is the big picture. They see a Wings team that has been getting worst as far as wins/losses go. They don't see that a new, younger generation of Wings is slowly stepping it up and taking over. Once the young guns learn how to win, UFA's will want to come here again. One year of striking out on everyone is not the end of the world.

 

So no, Holland is not failing at everything but drafting and developing. Not saying he has been perfect. Like any GM, he has made mistakes. But he had made no mistakes that jeopardize the future of this franchise. He has never sacrificed the future of this team just to try and make a run at it all now. 



#2494 DeGraa55

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 09:47 PM

 
Conditioning: most injuries were from the old guys that didn't play a game. Out side of that, you had Helm with his freak bad luck, Hank with a bad back that was lingering for a few years (but is now finally fixed!), Weiss trying to play through an injury which has made it a lot worse, then just unlucky injuries to guys like Dekeyser. Datsyuk's injuries were the most concerning, but the extra long summer I'm sure will do him wonders as well. So with the old guys gone, Hank, Weiss, and Helm healthy, any injuries this season should be those that can be overcome. Should be a lot less pulled groins this season. 
 
Trading: Moves are made when they make sense. Why trade prospects/picks now when many of the kids on the roster still have some improving left to do? Babcock has said himself that teams ready to make a run makes trades for the final pieces of the puzzle. The Wings aren't quite there yet. They will be. Making trades for missing pieces now just hinders the future. Build as much from within as possible first, THEN make trades. Why make trades now when some holes can be filled from within just by getting more experience? Just thins out the prospect pool for the franchise down the road, meaning we'd just have to deal with yet another reload in a few years. The team is building for long term success in the cap world. Be patient.
 
Signing UFA's: When this team is on the upswing again, it will once again become a place people want to play. Much like the fans who are calling for the team to tank the season, all UFA's see is the big picture. They see a Wings team that has been getting worst as far as wins/losses go. They don't see that a new, younger generation of Wings is slowly stepping it up and taking over. Once the young guns learn how to win, UFA's will want to come here again. One year of striking out on everyone is not the end of the world.
 
So no, Holland is not failing at everything but drafting and developing. Not saying he has been perfect. Like any GM, he has made mistakes. But he had made no mistakes that jeopardize the future of this franchise. He has never sacrificed the future of this team just to try and make a run at it all now. 


No he just sacrificed these last few years and the next 2-6 years.

#2495 number9

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 10:56 PM

 
I honestly think they are trying to build and maintain a culture here where players feel safe and appreciated.  Where if they have go through a slump, they won't fear being traded or instantly replaced.
 
Obviously they go to extremes at times.(Cleary) But sometimes the message sent can have a more profound impact down the road than the immediate repercussions.
 
I'm sure many believe that fear can motivate a player but I don't think that's a stable way of doing business.  I just don't see us trading roster players unless there's an issue with attitude or commitment or just too many bodies.
 
We definitely struck out this year in free agency.  No looking past that.  That's on management.  Injuries...that's a tough thing to place blame on.


Ur posts are like a breath of fresh air

#2496 Euro_Twins

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 11:48 PM

 
I honestly think they are trying to build and maintain a culture here where players feel safe and appreciated.  Where if they have go through a slump, they won't fear being traded or instantly replaced.
 
Obviously they go to extremes at times.(Cleary) But sometimes the message sent can have a more profound impact down the road than the immediate repercussions.
 
I'm sure many believe that fear can motivate a player but I don't think that's a stable way of doing business.  I just don't see us trading roster players unless there's an issue with attitude or commitment or just too many bodies.
 
We definitely struck out this year in free agency.  No looking past that.  That's on management.  Injuries...that's a tough thing to place blame on.


I blame it on trainers and conditioning coaches

#2497 joshy207

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 09:03 PM

 

I don't think that's the result at all.  Tough choices get made. People get sat when it counts and even waived. It's just not as knee-jerk in Detroit.

 

Bertuzzi, Sammy and Cleary played a whopping 1 game combined in the playoffs.  Kindl was in the press box by the end. Andersson barely touched the ice.

 

As long as we make the playoffs, I don't think they'll question those methods during the regular season.

 

When you're scraping your way into the playoffs by 3 and 1 points over the last couple seasons, every game counts...  and the only guys who get waived are the ones the organization has already tried to trade unsuccessfully, like Tootoo, Eaves, Samuelsson, Emmerton... all of whom went unclaimed.

Cleary was injured and Samuelsson.. well, who really knows, he wasn't touching the ice no matter what.  Kindl manages to play his way out of the lineup by the end of the playoffs, that's what he does.  Bertuzzi and Andersson had been squeezed out, yes.  But Franzen doesn't get scratched when he has one goal in 20 games.

The methods could very well lead to not making the playoffs.  The Wings aren't in a position of dominance.  They're built around older forwards and are relatively inexperienced on defense.  The postseason isn't merely a given, it's the goal now.  Holland either needs to go for broke, sign and/or trade for some high-end players and make a serious Cup run or two, or fully embrace the youth movement and stop hanging onto guys like Cleary, Quincey, Gustavsson, etc.  Instead, he waffles back and forth.  The last three summers, he's said he'll be very active in free agency... he got his guys in 2013 (with mixed results), but he struck out horribly in 2012 and so far in 2014.  He hasn't made a trade of significance in FOREVER.  Yet he keeps signing middling players to contracts and keeping his young players buried in Grand Rapids.  Has he not seen the benefits of using his younger players?  They've thrived in their roles since the lockout.  Not just been adequate, they've excelled.  Yes, they'll make mistakes, but as long as they learn from them and don't repeat them over and over, that's progress.  Holland's reasoning for not going young is that he "doesn't want to miss the playoffs for 5 years."  Who thinks that'll actually happen?  These kids are GOOD.  They're not great, they're not Crosbys or Ovechkins or Lidstroms, but they're really solid and exciting.  The more they play now, the better they're going to be in a couple years.  But you can't get experience without getting experience.

 

What I really want is for Holland to pick a path and stick to it 100%.



#2498 joshy207

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 09:19 PM

 

Conditioning: most injuries were from the old guys that didn't play a game. Out side of that, you had Helm with his freak bad luck, Hank with a bad back that was lingering for a few years (but is now finally fixed!), Weiss trying to play through an injury which has made it a lot worse, then just unlucky injuries to guys like Dekeyser. Datsyuk's injuries were the most concerning, but the extra long summer I'm sure will do him wonders as well. So with the old guys gone, Hank, Weiss, and Helm healthy, any injuries this season should be those that can be overcome. Should be a lot less pulled groins this season. 

 

Trading: Moves are made when they make sense. Why trade prospects/picks now when many of the kids on the roster still have some improving left to do? Babcock has said himself that teams ready to make a run makes trades for the final pieces of the puzzle. The Wings aren't quite there yet. They will be. Making trades for missing pieces now just hinders the future. Build as much from within as possible first, THEN make trades. Why make trades now when some holes can be filled from within just by getting more experience? Just thins out the prospect pool for the franchise down the road, meaning we'd just have to deal with yet another reload in a few years. The team is building for long term success in the cap world. Be patient.

 

Signing UFA's: When this team is on the upswing again, it will once again become a place people want to play. Much like the fans who are calling for the team to tank the season, all UFA's see is the big picture. They see a Wings team that has been getting worst as far as wins/losses go. They don't see that a new, younger generation of Wings is slowly stepping it up and taking over. Once the young guns learn how to win, UFA's will want to come here again. One year of striking out on everyone is not the end of the world.

 

So no, Holland is not failing at everything but drafting and developing. Not saying he has been perfect. Like any GM, he has made mistakes. But he had made no mistakes that jeopardize the future of this franchise. He has never sacrificed the future of this team just to try and make a run at it all now. 

 

Do you really think NHL players don't pay any attention to other teams, other players?  I'd bet that most of them have a good idea of what's going on in other cities.  A lot of these guys have friends on other teams.  They also play against these teams all season, every season.  To say they don't study their opponents enough to know who's doing what for other teams... man, I wouldn't say that.  And it's not one year of striking out, it's multiple years of July 1st and Trade Deadline swings and misses.  Also, what do you call giving away early-round draft picks like Halloween candy in 1999 and sitting out the first round in 9 of the last 15 drafts?



#2499 marcaractac

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 10:18 PM

 

Do you really think NHL players don't pay any attention to other teams, other players?  I'd bet that most of them have a good idea of what's going on in other cities.  A lot of these guys have friends on other teams.  They also play against these teams all season, every season.  To say they don't study their opponents enough to know who's doing what for other teams... man, I wouldn't say that.  And it's not one year of striking out, it's multiple years of July 1st and Trade Deadline swings and misses.  Also, what do you call giving away early-round draft picks like Halloween candy in 1999 and sitting out the first round in 9 of the last 15 drafts?

 

You realize that most of those 1st round picks were traded before the cap era right? What does moves made in the precap era have to do with how the team is being built now? Short answer: nothing. 



#2500 Son of a Wing

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 10:26 PM

 

When you're scraping your way into the playoffs by 3 and 1 points over the last couple seasons, every game counts...  and the only guys who get waived are the ones the organization has already tried to trade unsuccessfully, like Tootoo, Eaves, Samuelsson, Emmerton... all of whom went unclaimed.

Cleary was injured and Samuelsson.. well, who really knows, he wasn't touching the ice no matter what.  Kindl manages to play his way out of the lineup by the end of the playoffs, that's what he does.  Bertuzzi and Andersson had been squeezed out, yes.  But Franzen doesn't get scratched when he has one goal in 20 games.

The methods could very well lead to not making the playoffs.  The Wings aren't in a position of dominance.  They're built around older forwards and are relatively inexperienced on defense.  The postseason isn't merely a given, it's the goal now.  Holland either needs to go for broke, sign and/or trade for some high-end players and make a serious Cup run or two, or fully embrace the youth movement and stop hanging onto guys like Cleary, Quincey, Gustavsson, etc.  Instead, he waffles back and forth.  The last three summers, he's said he'll be very active in free agency... he got his guys in 2013 (with mixed results), but he struck out horribly in 2012 and so far in 2014.  He hasn't made a trade of significance in FOREVER.  Yet he keeps signing middling players to contracts and keeping his young players buried in Grand Rapids.  Has he not seen the benefits of using his younger players?  They've thrived in their roles since the lockout.  Not just been adequate, they've excelled.  Yes, they'll make mistakes, but as long as they learn from them and don't repeat them over and over, that's progress.  Holland's reasoning for not going young is that he "doesn't want to miss the playoffs for 5 years."  Who thinks that'll actually happen?  These kids are GOOD.  They're not great, they're not Crosbys or Ovechkins or Lidstroms, but they're really solid and exciting.  The more they play now, the better they're going to be in a couple years.  But you can't get experience without getting experience.

 

What I really want is for Holland to pick a path and stick to it 100%.

 

I think this where the fundamental divide is.  I don't think we have to do either extreme.

 

That doesn't mean I'm pro-Cleary/Quincey or anti-trade but it does mean I don't think we should seriously compromise our future.

 

ie. Trading Mantha, Sproul, Nyquist, AA/ Signing mid-range UFAs to overpaid long-term deals. (I'm not referencing Niskanen)


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”





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