Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

[Wings02 31]

If they (Tatar and Nyquist) played a full season, I meant too add. Whether they could carry this pace over a full 82 would be a question

[Richdg 267]

Everyone has their own opinions on each player which is fine. But I don't even see Kronwall as our best defensemen-Dekeyser is. Yes Kronwall is better offensively, but neither is one of the 30 best in the NHL. Close, yes. Both are top 50. They are on different roads though. Kronwall has peaked and might be heading downward, while Dekeyser is still heading upwards.

But that really isn't the point. The point is/was we need more top end talent. We have some that can develop. Is it enough? No. That is my point in all of this.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Everyone has their own opinions on each player which is fine. But I don't even see Kronwall as our best defensemen-Dekeyser is. Yes Kronwall is better offensively, but neither is one of the 30 best in the NHL. Close, yes. Both are top 50. They are on different roads though. Kronwall has peaked and might be heading downward, while Dekeyser is still heading upwards.

But that really isn't the point. The point is/was we need more top end talent. We have some that can develop. Is it enough? No. That is my point in all of this.

Name 30 better.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

I wouldn't trade any of Nyquist/Tatar/Sheahan/Jurco right now - they have shown so much promise and NHL readiness already that we would be selling at an all-time low value because they haven't "produced for a full season in the NHL and are still prospects." If they continue to develop to Saad level they would be worth a hell of a lot more. I'd rather trade straight prospects like Pulks or Frk in addition to picks if anything. We do really need a top 4 defender to add to our D in place of Quincey - someone under 30 with a RH shot. I like Bogosian a lot - but I doubt Pulks+Ouellet/Kindl+1st is enough to get him and thats all we can really afford. I'm wary of Girardi only because he played with some really good Dmen in front of Lundqvist for so long - in addition to his hard nosed style that causes wear and tear he may become a bust here on a big UFA contract.

Everyone has their own opinions on each player which is fine. But I don't even see Kronwall as our best defensemen-Dekeyser is. Yes Kronwall is better offensively, but neither is one of the 30 best in the NHL. Close, yes. Both are top 50. They are on different roads though. Kronwall has peaked and might be heading downward, while Dekeyser is still heading upwards.

But that really isn't the point. The point is/was we need more top end talent. We have some that can develop. Is it enough? No. That is my point in all of this.

Deke is a great player - and likely may one day become better than Kronner if he keeps developing - but he is in no way better than Kronner right now. Kronwall likely a 2D on most playoff teams and would be a 1D on most non-playoff teams - that puts him in the top 30 league wide.

[Buppy 1,720]

Yes this is subjective, I understand that. But we shall have some fun anyway. IMHO a superstar player is a top 50 forward, top 30 defensemen, or a top 10 goalie. if that is the standard, we come up short. We have 2 top 50 forwards in Z and D, no top 30 dmen, and a top 10 G in Howard. Out of our group of prospects only Mantha look like a guy that could be a top 50 forward. Not sure if any of the D will get there and Mresak at G may got there. Of course the 2 top 50 forwards are down to the final few years.

The question becomes how do we fix this? yes you can draft and develop, but that takes time. 3-5 years depending on what round a guy is taken. Even then there are no sure things. Miss on a 1st rounder over the next couple of years and we are really screwed. be it bad pick, injury whatever.

We could go the UFA route, if any stars ever where to make it to UFA. Under the new NHL/CBA/Cap era, it is the star players that get signed first, and the secondary pieces/grinders that become UFA's. When 1 or 2 guys that are stars do make it, they then become very expensive.

The last option is to trade. Something we haven't done lately. this is also expensive in terms of potential we are giving up. To get a star you have to give up 3, 4, maybe 5 prospects/picks to make it happen.

Now, with all of that being said, we have to make some moves asap. we don't have time to sit around and wait 3-5 years for prospects to develop-if they ever do. Datsyuk is signed for 3 more years. Z is signed longer, but has a bad back. something that is not going to get better with age, only worse. Yes with those 2 around, we will stay in the very large group of teams fighting for the playoffs. But unless we find a few gems, there are no SC's in our near future. As great as Z and D have been for us, they deserve some help. They should not be asked to carry the team by themselves in the twilight of their careers.

Pretty loose definition of "superstar".

I do agree that we need some more high-end talent. A high-end offensive defenseman (who's not a total liability on defense) because our system is so reliant on it. (Though this seems to be less so of late, but I'm not sure if that's by design or just a consequence of our current roster.) And we could sure benefit from a high-end goal scorer, since our two stars are not particularly great at it themselves. (Though I think our forward corps, if healthy, has terrific depth. What we lack in quality can be made up for in quantity, it's just a question of whether all our talent could gel well enough.)

Replacing Datsyuk and Zetterberg is a separate issue, though of course solving that issue could also address the first. It would be great if we had future-Pav & Hank right now playing a complimentary role to the current. But very few teams are ever lucky enough to have that luxury. We got lucky once, it's still possible we could again (but probably not). But losing them is not an event horizon such that we need to replace them before it happens or we'll never recover. The franchise won't disolve if we miss the playoffs or fail to win a Cup every so often.

There's a reason people say you have to build through the draft. It's because trying to build through trades and free agents almost never works (even relative to the draft almost never working either).

For one, players actually worth building around almost never move. The teams that have them are trying to build around them. The ones who seem to have that level of talent who do move usually get moved precisely because their GMs don't believe they have the intangibles to build around.

Even if such players are available, the cost is exorbitant. You want to trade Franzen, Kronwall, and Abdelkader for the next Joe Thornton? Zetterberg, Jurco, Bert, & a 3rd for Seguin & Peverly? Two top-10s plus an early 2nd for Kessel? No thanks. (Wonder if Boston will be shopping Reilly. Franzen, Pulkkinen, and a 3rd ought to get it done...) Trades for those kinds of players are usually a "tear the whole team apart and try again with this guy" move, rather than a tweak to make the current team better while also securing the future.

Also, trades and FAs are usually a bit older and more expensive than your own prospects. So you have a smaller window in which to build, and less cap space for any needed additions. (And with trades, you probably gave away a good young prospect or three.)

Trades and FAs are best used to tweak your roster, not create it. We have good assets for tweak moves, and of course we should explore that option (though our bad cap situation make it unrealistic this year), but if you expect to pull our next stud from someone else's stable, we'll probably be worse in the short term, and it usually doesn't work long-term either. I'd rather settle for sensible moves now, without giving up much, and hope for a bit of luck. Or at least wait until we're actually bad before we start making blockbusters.

[Guest mjtm77]

1st off all you guys are entitled to your opinion, and it's great to see fellow fans having fun with this, But u guys would get laughed at in a serious hockey talk with people in the bussiness, Some of the ideas and opinions are so out there... Kroner is a top 15 d man in no way is DK better. Dats is top 5. Z is top 10. Anyway rock on guys. I didn't mean to be mean

Edit. You can laugh at my grammar

Edited February 2, 2014 by mjtm77

[number9 3,297]

"This just in: News breaking trade rumor: Every team in the NHL wants another high profile goal scorer and standout D-man on their team"

Well I'm taken aback, I thought it was only us.

[Richdg 267]

Yes Dekeyser is a better defensemen. kronwall has 5 times as many points, but their +/- is basically the same. Kronwall has spent most of his season playing with ericsson while Dekeyser has been blessed playing with defensive stalwarts like Kindl and Quincy.........

[FlashyG 1,799]

I don't think the Wings should be trading anyone right now. The prospect pool is stocked and those that have been called up to play for the Wings have exceeded expectations.

The only way we're going to land a top pairing defenceman or top line forward is by overpaying and giving awa a couple of those prospects and picks, and I'd rather wait and see what we have. You're more likely to develop your own top talent than you are trading for it.

We have a bunch of forwards who have plenty of potential to become top 6 guys, and a fantastic group of defensive prospects that are only a couple years away from being NHL regulars.

I think last year, this year and possibly next year are the low points of our re-tooling and we'll be back to being a legit cup contender soon enough.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Yes Dekeyser is a better defensemen. kronwall has 5 times as many points, but their +/- is basically the same. Kronwall has spent most of his season playing with ericsson while Dekeyser has been blessed playing with defensive stalwarts like Kindl and Quincy.........

+/- is a BS stat. If you're judging defensive ability on that, you don;t know hockey. Kronwall is better at every aspect of the game. Dekeyser has the potential to be a hell of a shut down defender, but he's not there yet. He makes plenty of mistakes that go unnoticed by the people watching the bottom 4 d-men like hawk so they can pick apart their games.

[Richdg 267]

Flashy, we can't keep them all. For example, this year Oullett, Sproul, Merchenko, and Jensen all started the clock as Dmen. Come the summer of 2016 all 4 need to be on our roster or pass through waivers. With the guys signed long term ahead of them, at least 2 have no roster spot.

[Richdg 267]

Yes +/- is a BS stat, but it also is a stat that can be useful. Dekeyser is a better Defenseman that Kronwall. he is bigger, faster, stronger, and plays much better position. Kronwall is a better offensive defenseman. he is a better passer and shooter. Kronwall is a top pair defenseman because the guys in front of him retired.

[FlashyG 1,799]

Yes Dekeyser is a better defensemen. kronwall has 5 times as many points, but their +/- is basically the same. Kronwall has spent most of his season playing with ericsson while Dekeyser has been blessed playing with defensive stalwarts like Kindl and Quincy.........

But Kronwall is also defending the oppositions top line while Dekeyser is out against weaker opposition.

Dekeyser is a better skater than Kronwall but outside of that I can't think of anything else he does better than him

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Yes +/- is a BS stat, but it also is a stat that can be useful. Dekeyser is a better Defenseman that Kronwall. he is bigger, faster, stronger, and plays much better position. Kronwall is a better offensive defenseman. he is a better passer and shooter. Kronwall is a top pair defenseman because the guys in front of him retired.

False. +/- is one of the most useless stats in the NHL. You can play perfect postionally and end up -3 in a game because someone on the ice with you screws up 3 times and you can end up +3 for doing absolutely nothing. It's only useful in very specific situations. The only reason you're using it is that it backs up your false assertion. Also, Dekeyser isn't any of that. He's still growing into his frame and he's neither stronger nor faster than Kronwall, and he's still learning his defensive positioning.

[FlashyG 1,799]

Flashy, we can't keep them all. For example, this year Oullett, Sproul, Merchenko, and Jensen all started the clock as Dmen. Come the summer of 2016 all 4 need to be on our roster or pass through waivers. With the guys signed long term ahead of them, at least 2 have no roster spot.

That's a problem for 3 years from now, not right now.

Chances are only 2 of the 4 will turn out to be ready for the NHL at that point anyways and if we want 3 of them we can always waive Kindl or Smith at that point to make room for them.

Yes +/- is a BS stat, but it also is a stat that can be useful. Dekeyser is a better Defenseman that Kronwall. he is bigger, faster, stronger, and plays much better position. Kronwall is a better offensive defenseman. he is a better passer and shooter. Kronwall is a top pair defenseman because the guys in front of him retired.

Dekeyser is taller than Kronwall, but their weight is identical.

Kronwall is the more physical of the 2 by far, he has far more hits, takes fewer hits and blocks more shots, so I'm not sure how you've come to the conclusion that Dekeyser is better positionally.

Kronwall is unquestionably the best defenceman on the team.

[Dabura 12,207]

I wouldn't mind Jarnkrok-Pulkkinen being next season's Sheahan-Jurco, if that makes any sense.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

I hate to say it but it's just true sometimes prospects are just assets there are only so many places on a roster. If we have to part with some of them in order to get a very good number 1 defender in his mid twenties I'm all for it. Guys like Nyquist ONLY if the Blues entertain to move Pietrangelo or the Kings a guy like Doughty.

If the Sabres are buying out Tyler Myers if I would be willing to take a chance at him if I were Holland.

[rick zombo 3,739]

I wouldn't mind Jarnkrok-Pulkkinen being next season's Sheahan-Jurco, if that makes any sense.

Totally.

But I’d settle for Sheahan-Jurco getting a chance to be Sheahan-Jurco next year without it being Sheahan-Glendenning with Jurco in GRs.

[joesuffP 1,746]

This place has a blind faith in DD he can do no wrong and Quincey can't do anything right

[Dabura 12,207]

This place has a blind faith in DD he can do no wrong and Quincey can't do anything right

Agreed.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Totally.

But I’d settle for Sheahan-Jurco getting a chance to be Sheahan-Jurco next year without it being Sheahan-Glendenning with Jurco in GRs.

I think the team will be better off with Jurco in GR smoothing the rough edges off his game and available when he's needed. One free agent and Sheahan playing in the top 9 forwards, assuming Franzen can play, and they're pretty well set there. Glendening can stay there too, keep Ferraro and Callahan as reserves in Detroit since they'd have to clear waivers. Then get one D either through trade of free agency and they're set.

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-FA

Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist

Tatar-Helm-Sheahan

Miller-Andersson-Abdelkader

Callahan-Ferraro

Kronwall-Dekeyser

Ericsson-new guy

2 of Kindl, Smith, Marchenko, Ouellet, Sproul

Lashoff #7

I like that team.

[Dabura 12,207]

Totally.

But I’d settle for Sheahan-Jurco getting a chance to be Sheahan-Jurco next year without it being Sheahan-Glendenning with Jurco in GRs.

oh fo sho yo (imho)

[Dabura 12,207]

I think the team will be better off with Jurco in GR smoothing the rough edges off his game and available when he's needed. One free agent and Sheahan playing in the top 9 forwards, assuming Franzen can play, and they're pretty well set there. Glendening can stay there too, keep Ferraro and Callahan as reserves in Detroit since they'd have to clear waivers. Then get one D either through trade of free agency and they're set.

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-FA

Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist

Tatar-Helm-Sheahan

Miller-Andersson-Abdelkader

Callahan-Ferraro

Kronwall-Dekeyser

Ericsson-new guy

2 of Kindl, Smith, Marchenko, Ouellet, Sproul

Lashoff #7

I like that team.

That UFA forward would have to be pretty dang good for me to not feel bummed about keeping Jurco on the farm for another season.

[Richdg 267]

Yes only a couple of the prospects on the farm will work out. That is why you use them in trades. The hard part of course is guessing which ones to keep and which ones to move. BTW the idea of letting players walk is stupid. Trade them for picks if nothing else to keep the pipeline full and flowing.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

That UFA forward would have to be pretty dang good for me to not feel bummed about keeping Jurco on the farm for another season.

Any competent goal scorer will make that a pretty good top 3 lines, you can move it around how you want. It also allows the Wings to keep all of the kids who aren't waiver exempt next year. If it's not working, they can dump Ferraro later on and call up Jurco.