Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

Dear god I hope Alfie hangs them up. I just thought about how pissed I'd be if Holland didn't spend any of that money in the offseason and then was immediately MORE pissed when I realized they will spend it...on a 42 year old who's fading fast. Ugh.

He's 42, he didn't fade fast, and he was one of our best point producers even at 42

[Richdg 267]

Et that says a lot about our lack of talent overall. Alfie is toast. has been declining for several years and physically can't take the pounding anymore. HOF player whose time has passed.

[Rivalred 630]

Dear god I hope Alfie hangs them up. I just thought about how pissed I'd be if Holland didn't spend any of that money in the offseason and then was immediately MORE pissed when I realized they will spend it...on a 42 year old who's fading fast. Ugh.

42 yr old produced more than most.... Ugh

[Datsyukian-Deke 722]

I'm ok with Alfie but not at the cap hit he was last season. There are better ways to spend that money.

[martinezsvsu 240]

pay for ryan callahan. resign the kids and call it an off season. sadly that is way too much action for kenny

[nawein 324]

Next year this team needs more Mattias Backman.

[Dabura 12,207]

Holland's newest round of comments makes it sound like we're not interested in doing anything big, in free agency or the trade market. Sometimes I want to punch him in the face. Not literally. Figuratively. I guess.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Holland's newest round of comments makes it sound like we're not interested in doing anything big, in free agency or the trade market. Sometimes I want to punch him in the face. Not literally. Figuratively. I guess.

I'd like to physically punch him in the face, partly because I know he doesn't have an enforcer to keep me honest.

[Dabura 12,207]

pay for ryan callahan. resign the kids and call it an off season. sadly that is way too much action for kenny

Callahan's probably going to Get Paid. That's why he wanted out of New York in the first place - and that's why New York was willing to cut him loose. He's 29, his size (or lack thereof) plus the style of game he plays means he probably only has a few good years left, and even then, he's not really a goal-scorer or the kind of physical presence that we can't find for much less coin and term. He's a heart and soul guy who's gone mercenary, which I'm always wary of. I love the player, but, realistically, we need to stay away from him.

Not that I'm in favor of standing pat, mind you.

I'd like to physically punch him in the face, partly because I know he doesn't have an enforcer to keep me honest.

hahaha quote of the year!

[Dabura 12,207]

An actual Holland quote:

"We like our kids -- we have good young players who'll play in the NHL for 10 to 15 years," Holland said. "I don't want to get into trades where we're sending two or three of those kids for a 32-year-old player."

(Source.)

1. "We like our team kids."
2. David Legwand says hi.
3. OK, so that rules out all 32-year-olds. How about a 27-year-old Keith Yandle, or a 25-year-old Kevin Shattenkirk? Would either one of them cost three of our "untouchables"? Somehow, I doubt it.
4. He does realize that all these assets means trades are now not only possible but necessary, right? Surely he must realize this. Surely he's just refusing to show his cards. Right?

Something else in that article that rubs me kinda wrong:

The Red Wings are likely to dip their toes into the free-agent market, although they probably won't go after big names. General manager Ken Holland will listen to trade offers.

I guess it's more that second bit, that he "will listen to trade offers." Will he be proactively kicking tires, making offers of his own? Or is this going to be a "Man, our stable has the best horses. Anyone would love to have our stable of horses. That's why I'm not going to do anything, ever. Life is good" gameplan? If so, we can probably kiss the idea of Datsyuk getting one last Cup goodbye.

[/overreacting]

[dirtydangles 1,328]

Realistically how much would Shattenkirk cost us? The blues could probably afford to trade him for help in the forward corps.

[rick zombo 3,739]

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/06/detroit_red_wings_hoping_to_si.html

When it's framed like this (see below quote), things seems more positive

He added, "We're moving slowly. I don't want to lock into something that in two years I'm trying to figure my way out of. ... The depth of our organization and the development of kids allows me to move slowly and see what transpires over the next month."

They want to keep their options open and explore trades and the free-agent market on July 1.Holland said he expects trade talks to pick up at next week's general managers meeting in New York and really heat up at the entry draft in Philadelphia June 27-28.

"I had 2-3 managers call with some interesting names," Holland said. "People are starting to talk a little more. It appears to be an intriguing draft (for trade possibilities)."

The Red Wings are in the market for a top-four defenseman (preferably a right-handed shooter) and a goal-scoring winger.

"We're really excited about (Tomas) Tatar, (Gustav) Nyquist, (Tomas) Jurco, (Riley) Sheahan, the development of our young kids," Holland said. "(Grand Rapids Griffins coach) Jeff Blashill thinks a couple of our young defensemen aren't far away.

"Are we best served by bringing someone in? Part of that will be determined by what's out there. Our fallback position is our kids. It's a good position to be in."

[kipwinger 8,522]

Holland's newest round of comments makes it sound like we're not interested in doing anything big, in free agency or the trade market. Sometimes I want to punch him in the face. Not literally. Figuratively. I guess.

Yeah pissed me off too. But why wouldn't you keep rolling out the same core lineup which hasn't been able to cut it for five years now? Holland needs to do something to address the core, not just nibble away at the periphery. Our core lineup can't win by itself anymore. Dats and Z can't power this team to a cup alone They need help. Look at New York, does anybody think they'd be where they're at if St. Louis and Richards were their two best players? They're winning because they've got loads of high quality players in their primes...Nash, Stepan, Brassard, Puliot, Girardi, Staal AND veterans like St. Louis, Richards, Lundqvist AND some first rate young guys like Kreider, Hagelin, McDonagh.

We don't have a single forward between the ages of 25 and 32 who's even as good as Benoit Puliot, and he's nothing special. And we've got exactly one defenseman (Ericsson) who's both in his prime and actually worth a damn.

If Holland doesn't get do something soon, we won't be good for another 3-5 years when the kids fully mature, and by that time Dats, Z, Kronwall, Franzen and maybe Howard and Ericsson will be all washed up or on the decline.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

There are no elite players in free agency. Vanek is so awesome he was demoted to the 4th line and Montreal won't try to sign him after giving up assets for him at the deadline. Niskanen was 4th in TOI for the Pens in the playoffs and if he was really worth top pair money for long term there would be more talk about them trying to keep him. I'd rather see them fill every open spot with a rookie than sign a guy for too much money for 5+ years or some over the hill stop gap for 2 years.

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

There are no elite players in free agency. Vanek is so awesome he was demoted to the 4th line and Montreal won't try to sign him after giving up assets for him at the deadline. Niskanen was 4th in TOI for the Pens in the playoffs and if he was really worth top pair money for long term there would be more talk about them trying to keep him. I'd rather see them fill every open spot with a rookie than sign a guy for too much money for 5+ years or some over the hill stop gap for 2 years.

They have no cap space to keep him

[kipwinger 8,522]

There are no elite players in free agency. Vanek is so awesome he was demoted to the 4th line and Montreal won't try to sign him after giving up assets for him at the deadline. Niskanen was 4th in TOI for the Pens in the playoffs and if he was really worth top pair money for long term there would be more talk about them trying to keep him. I'd rather see them fill every open spot with a rookie than sign a guy for too much money for 5+ years or some over the hill stop gap for 2 years.

Who said anything about "elite". None of Stepan, Nash, Kreider, Girardi, Brassard, Puliot, Kreider, Staal, or Zucarello are "elite". But they're all very good. And they seem to have helped the Rangers.

Likewise, Voynov, Brown, Carter, Toffoli, Martinez, King aren't elite either.

However each and every one of the guys I mentioned is better at their respective positions than anyone we've got in the same age range.

Surely there are UFA's or trades which are better for our top six or top four than Abby or Smith and who aren't going to cost a zillion dollars?

Also I'm not sure why you think Vanek and Niskanen are going to get paid so much. Everyone knows they aren't "elite" and they won't get paid as such.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Really Kip? Bringing up trading Smith again? I can't believe it...

You should probably lay off on Mr. Smith a little though because love him or hate him, he isn't going anywhere, and I am thankful for that.

I agree on everything else though...

[DickieDunn 2,571]

There are no elite players in free agency. Vanek is so awesome he was demoted to the 4th line and Montreal won't try to sign him after giving up assets for him at the deadline. Niskanen was 4th in TOI for the Pens in the playoffs and if he was really worth top pair money for long term there would be more talk about them trying to keep him. I'd rather see them fill every open spot with a rookie than sign a guy for too much money for 5+ years or some over the hill stop gap for 2 years.

Who said anything about "elite". None of Stepan, Nash, Kreider, Girardi, Brassard, Puliot, Kreider, Staal, or Zucarello are "elite". But they're all very good. And they seem to have helped the Rangers.

Likewise, Voynov, Brown, Carter, Toffoli, Martinez, King aren't elite either.

However each and every one of the guys I mentioned is better at their respective positions than anyone we've got in the same age range.

Surely there are UFA's or trades which are better for our top six or top four than Abby or Smith and who aren't going to cost a zillion dollars?

Also I'm not sure why you think Vanek and Niskanen are going to get paid so much. Everyone knows they aren't "elite" and they won't get paid as such.

There may be a trade available. Free agency isn't going to supply a very good option though, which is what I was talking about.

Baneo and Niskanen will get big contracts because there are always teams willing to pay too much so they can say they're trying.

[kipwinger 8,522]

There may be a trade available. Free agency isn't going to supply a very good option though, which is what I was talking about. Baneo and Niskanen will get big contracts because there are always teams willing to pay too much so they can say they're trying.

In your opinion, what's "too much" for each Niskanen and Vanek?

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Yeah pissed me off too. But why wouldn't you keep rolling out the same core lineup which hasn't been able to cut it for five years now? Holland needs to do something to address the core, not just nibble away at the periphery. Our core lineup can't win by itself anymore. Dats and Z can't power this team to a cup alone They need help. Look at New York, does anybody think they'd be where they're at if St. Louis and Richards were their two best players? They're winning because they've got loads of high quality players in their primes...Nash, Stepan, Brassard, Puliot, Girardi, Staal AND veterans like St. Louis, Richards, Lundqvist AND some first rate young guys like Kreider, Hagelin, McDonagh.

We don't have a single forward between the ages of 25 and 32 who's even as good as Benoit Puliot, and he's nothing special. And we've got exactly one defenseman (Ericsson) who's both in his prime and actually worth a damn.

If Holland doesn't get do something soon, we won't be good for another 3-5 years when the kids fully mature, and by that time Dats, Z, Kronwall, Franzen and maybe Howard and Ericsson will be all washed up or on the decline.

This is definitely not the team of 4-5 years ago and things are starting to go in the right direction. Signings could help the team or have the potential of standing in the way of young players.

I'd rather have Helm than Puliot. Helm's main assets are not even offensive, but: Helm: 12 goals in 42 games; Pouliot: 15 goals in 82 games . Also, Weiss is a player within that age group who is supposed to be pretty good - we shall see. Dekeyser will be 25 next year and could be entering his prime, but is certainly "worth a damn."

I like the youth movement. Hopefully Nyquist can play 3/4 of the way he did down the stretch then we'll start considering him part of the core. Z, D, and Weiss healthy and Howard playing up to his past standards and this is already much different team.

I also like what Holland has been saying about this offseason:

"We're moving slowly. I don't want to lock into something that in two years I'm trying to figure my way out of."

- He is basically admitting some resent mistakes with this comment and it suggests that situations such as Sammy, Tootoo, Coliacovo won't be happening. The impulse of "we've got to do something now!" is exactly what lead to these signings. There were no great UFA players available for a reasonable price then, just like there probably won't be this year (still hoping for Gaborik). The strength of our prospect pool is what changes the situation now from the past few years. Young prospects are real options for filling roster needs.

On a side note, I think Holland hinted that Mantha will be in GR next year with this comment on Blashill:

“He knows those kids and he knows there’s another wave with (Andreas) Athanasiou, and (Anthony) Mantha, and (Mattias) Backman. He knows there are a few more kids coming in and he’ll have those kids for another year, so I think he’s excited for the opportunity to continue overseeing their development.”

Edited June 5, 2014 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[wings4thecup06 504]

In your opinion, what's "too much" for each Niskanen and Vanek?

Too much for Niskanen would be anything over $5 million IMO, probably the same for Vanek. That's just the money. Length I wouldn't go more than 5 years for either. Never ever going to happen though. Hell, some idiot will probably give Hemsky his reported $5.5 million asking price, so I'm sure Vanek will get $7 million avg.

This is definitely not the team of 4-5 years ago and things are starting to go in the right direction. Signings could help the team or have the potential of standing in the way of young players.

I'd rather have Helm than Puliot. Helm's main assets are not even offensive, but: Helm: 12 goals in 42 games; Pouliot: 15 goals in 82 games . Also, Weiss is a player within that age group who is supposed to be pretty good - we shall see. Dekeyser will be 25 next year and could be entering his prime, but is certainly "worth a damn."

I like the youth movement. Hopefully Nyquist can play 3/4 of the way he did down the stretch then we'll start considering him part of the core. Z, D, and Weiss healthy and Howard playing up to his past standards and this is already much different team.

I also like what Holland has been saying about this offseason:

"We're moving slowly. I don't want to lock into something that in two years I'm trying to figure my way out of."

- He is basically admitting some resent mistakes with this comment and it suggests that situations such as Sammy, Tootoo, Coliacovo won't be happening. The impulse of "we've got to do something now!" is exactly what lead to these signings. There were no great UFA players available for a reasonable price then, just like there probably won't be this year (still hoping for Gaborik). The strength of our prospect pool is what changes the situation now from the past few years. Young prospects are real options for filling roster needs.

I agree. I think there's a ton of talent up and coming, and that after this season, KH and co realise that it's good to have a few kids in there instead of old washed up veterans taking their spots. That said, our prospect pool gives us a great opportunity to make a deal or two for the right guy. I'm excited to see what unfolds.

[Dabura 12,207]

I just get the impression that Kenny goes out of his way to avoid doing things. That he's risk-averse, concerned with only doing the bare minimum needed to get us into the playoffs. The rest he can rationalize away as "parity" and what have you. I don't have much to base this on, and I realize how petulant it makes me seem. But it's how I feel. Sort of. If I were to sit down and write an honors thesis on it, I'd probably be able to get to the heart of it and come to a realization that everything he does, he does in direct service to The Ultimate Goal, Winning the Cup. But on the knee-jerk level, he's become a caricature of himself, at least in his dealings with the media (which, admittedly, make up about 0.5% of his day-to-day "doings"). So what I'm saying is, I'm a petulant child. I guess.

Vanek. The concern there is the concern with every big-name free agent who doesn't re-sign: that he's going to Get Paid. I might like him @ $21M ($7M x 3), but I'm expecting him, like Niskanen, to swing for the fences. If there are five teams telling you, "Look, we'll give you anything you want, just sign with us, please!" - I imagine that's too good to pass up, unless you've got your heart set on a club that maybe can't or simply won't pay what any one of those five clubs would.

So Vanek is almost certainly out of the question, and I'm ok with that. And Niskanen is almost certainly out of the question, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. If he gets something that's not entirely unreasonable, I'll probably riot. If Kenny's being truthful in only wanting a short, cheap option (why does it have to be short and cheap?), that might rule out Boyle, but I assume he'd be willing to pay up for him. But I have to think Gilbert and Stralman are the most realistic UFA options for the back end. Up front, and sticking with UFAs, I'm only really interested in Benoit Pouliot. I think he'd be a fantastic fit (and maybe a good mentor for Mantha?), but it sounds like he has every intention of re-upping with the Rags. I'd be willing to overpay to get him. If he can score 15 goals as a Blueshirt, he can score 20+ as a Wing. Big frame, will hit anything that moves on the forecheck if told to do so, can skate like the wind, and is more skilled than he gets credit for.

Stralman and Pouliot would be a great haul, IMHO. And nothing Kenny has said really rules either of them out. So I guess it's the trade market that I'm getting all worked up about. We have a wealth of tradeable assets. We have cap space. We have three years of Datsyuk left. Do something. Push for the Cup, not the playoffs. Don't sit on your hands and wait for the perfect deal to fall into your lap.

[Dabura 12,207]

In fairness, the future looks incredibly bright. We're going to be big and mobile on the back end, and big and fast and skilled up front. We're going to have great value with the ELCs and bridge contracts. I just want us to capitalize on this "perfect storm" while Datsyuk is still here and the core is still effective. I firmly believe we're a couple players away from being a contender in the East. I don't want to wait for glory to come to us. I want Kenny to go out and find it and seize it!

[Ekmanc 586]

I'm alright with Holland being careful when it comes to signing a winger but we need need NEED to improve our defense and that just won't happen from within for a couple of seasons at least, we need a legitimate top4 defender to add some stability.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Ekmanc

[DickieDunn 2,571]

In your opinion, what's "too much" for each Niskanen and Vanek?

I'd do $6 mil per for 3 years for Vanek, maybe, probably less than that. It's been reported he wants $50 mil over 7 years. Too much and too long for Vanek.

I wouldn't sign Niskanen for more than 3 years either, at about $5 mil per. You just don't know if he's the guy who stepped up and played well this year, the guy he was the last 2 years, or somewhere in between. He got demoted back to the 4th D in Pittsburgh once everyone was healthy and I haven't heard a word about them trying to make a move to keep him. That tells me that the team that knows him best doesn't think he's more than a second pair D, and I'm not going to give a guy like that 6 or 7 years unless it's a very cap friendly deal.