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ECQF - Game 4 - Bruins 3 at Red Wings 2 (F/OT)



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#861 puckbags

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:28 PM

 

I agree that most coaches would jump at the chance to coach for Detroit, but Holland is circling the drain.  The last 4 years have been a string of abysmal signings and free agent acquisitions.  He was handed the keys to the Cadillac with Yzerman, Lidstrom, and a host of other star players, and every year we've lost talent and replaced it with either imports / minor league players that don't live up to their billing or washed up free agents.  Ken Holland gets way too much credit for the Red Wings' success.  All of his "accomplishments" can be attributed to the talents and machinations of Mike Ilitch, Jim Devellano, Bryan Murray, Scotty Bowman, and Mike Babcock.

 

Was Holland supposed to decline the job because it was too good? I'll give you Bowman but Bryan Murray? c'mon . Sometimes the hardest jobs to do are when the expectations are as high as they are in Detroit.  We've won a cup with him as GM and never missed the playoffs.  If you don't like the guy that's fine but to strip the guy of any credit for anything he's done here is ignorant and well timed considering we just lost a game.


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#862 roboturner

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:32 PM

 

Yes. Of course. No coach in their rightf****** mind would want to come here and play for Holland. Why would anyone want to do that? No one resects the Wings organization and their lack of repeated success. All the good coaches want to go to model franchises like Toronto and Vancouver. 

We're gonna turn into Toronto or Vancouver pretty soon if Holland doesn't cut thef****** bulls***


 

Was Holland supposed to decline the job because it was too good? I'll give you Bowman but Bryan Murray? c'mon . Sometimes the hardest jobs to do are when the expectations are as high as they are in Detroit.  We've won a cup with him as GM and never missed the playoffs.  If you don't like the guy that's fine but to strip the guy of any credit for anything he's done here is ignorant and well timed considering we just lost a game.

Pretending that he's not responsible for the poor personnel decisions made since that last cup is also pretty ignorant....


Edited by roboturner, 24 April 2014 - 11:34 PM.


#863 joesuffP

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 12:01 AM

What is this Howard's third flu this year
Howard has more flus than shut outs

#864 The Greek

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 12:05 AM

I'm  a emontional wreck right now


I understand. The loss definitely sucks, especially against a bunch of s***-bags, with the most insufferable fan base in the world. In the end, we have no control over the outcome. The only people who should be emotionally wrecked are the ones who decided to quit playing hockey as soon as the faced some adversity.

Edited by The Greek, 25 April 2014 - 12:09 AM.


#865 gcom007

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 12:09 AM

I agree that most coaches would jump at the chance to coach for Detroit, but Holland is circling the drain.  The last 5 years have been a string of abysmal signings and free agent acquisitions.  He was handed the keys to the Cadillac with Yzerman, Lidstrom, and a host of other star players, and every year we've lost talent and replaced it with either imports / minor league players that don't live up to their billing or washed up free agents.  Ken Holland gets way too much credit for the Red Wings' success.  All of his "accomplishments" can be attributed to the talents and machinations of Mike Ilitch, Jim Devellano, Bryan Murray, Scotty Bowman, and Mike Babcock.


Maybe he gets too much credit for those earlier teams, but I won't take it away from him either because ultimately, he was getting the job done, and just because there was no cap doesn't mean it was always easy. I will say that I think he made some moronic decisions that remind me of his more recent decisions though in the no cap era, such as bringing Hasek back that 2nd time. It just wasn't a classy move at all after signing Joseph, and we absolutely didn't need him with Joseph. But for the most part, he got the job done, kept the team Bowman built running smoothly, tweaked it when need be, and again, I'm just not going to take that away from him at this point, knowing what I know now.

But as successful as he was, that has not been the case at all in the cap era at least since we really started to have to deal with it. He's failed on so many levels and let this team sink far lower than was necessary. Our early success hinged on Franzen and Z making very little money, that nice cap rollback coming off the first season, and bargain basement veteran goaltending from Osgood that was good enough to shut out the Penguins in the first two games of the finals of the way to winning the Stanley Cup.

Ever since we had to start making serious decisions about guys and building the team in a new way, he's seemed completely flummoxed. Hell, even he's admitted that he was shocked and unprepared for what the offseason brought in the first couple years. Then it just became "we like our team" when he couldn't or wouldn't make moves or sign guys. He's let assets go for nothing, he's failed to improve the defense, he's made far more bad free agent signings than good, and the last two years, the teams he put together in the offseason ended up having to be carried by our Grand Rapids kids to make the playoffs. We are clearly a team running on fumes at this point, and as the two key guys that have kept this team competitive consistently decline with age and retire, we will be in very serious trouble if Holland hasn't changed his ways or been replaced.

Again, if we go out unceremoniously this season, if it was my call, he'd be out as GM. I would keep him in the organization if possible, because I don't think he's useless, but the breaking point for me was after two seasons of failing to improve our D at all from the outside after losing Rafalski, Stuart and Lidstrom, he was still signing forwards when we already had too many last August. That was when I really lost my faith in him being able to get the job done. Maybe he still could find a way to build a great team in another organization where he was more emotionally disconnected, but in Detroit, I just don't think he has the stomach to make the tough calls and take chances anymore, and it's why this team has been in decline since 2009.

And that Babcock's done what he has with the pieces he's been given continues to impress me. I think it's absurd that people want him gone. Nobody's perfect, and it's unfair to expect them to be, but he's overcome a lot and kept this team competitive and in the hunt year after year despite losing key players, dealing with Holland's lousy signings, and then all of the injuries the last couple years. He's maintained a pattern of success relative to what he's been given and had to deal with.

The same cannot be said for Holland at this point. Maybe he got unlucky and it could've been different if Weiss had played more of the year and helped us, but he didn't, and the health issues weren't a secret when he was signed either. Bad luck or bad decision, it doesn't change the fact that he's had four seasons in a row now where he's mostly failed to help make this team better. They've been in decline since 2009, there's been far more bad signings than good in that span of time, and our saving grace the last two years has been either Dats and Z carrying the team (and definitely Howard too last season) or kids from GR coming up and playing better than they should and maybe ever will again.

Enough is enough.

And to those who say that at least we are in the playoffs, I hear you on one level. It shows we still have a solid core and I think Babcock deserves credit there too. But consider then that given our ability to still make the playoffs in spite of so many clear failings in the GM department, imagine how much better we might be had we made better decisions the last four years. Imagine if instead of overspending on some of the useless forwards we'd signed, we overspent on even a solid mid-level defenseman instead. Imagine that, you know, we overspent in a way that actually addressed our ridiculously blatant needs. Everybody's overspending. It's the nature of the beast. We are too, we're just doing it in a colossally ass backwards way.

This team could be better and absolutely should've been better for some time. If Holland can no longer help then be better, it's time for him to go, simple as that. After all, sometimes change is good. Sometimes it's bad. Same thing goes for no change though. At some point you just have to take that risk though when things aren't working. If we can keep Holland in the organization and retain the scouting staff, I don't think we have anything to lose.

-Elliot


#866 WingsallTheway

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 12:27 AM

Laviollete? Really? Thats everyones suggestion after this? 

 

First off: He is NOT a good coach. Philly suddenly becomes one of the best teams in the league once he gets fired...okay. 

 

Plus hes unemployed for a reason, lots of teams are looking for a head  coach.

 

I am not a babs supporter by any means but he belongs here and does a good job, this team is much better with him than without.

 

Second, its the team Holland gives  to babcock that is the issue. You think any coach can make a team whos second best defenceman is kyle quincey make it past the first round? Let alone make it to the playoffs. 

 

The bottom pairing of Kindl-Lashoff? We probably have a tied series if not for that hole Holland decided to ignore


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Pavel datsyuk is the best player in the world because he snatches the puck from unsuspecting players and  follows it up by the simultaneous undressing of the defence pairing. The goalie then gives up, and flops like a fish. The end result is a calm skate back to his bench  where he can bask in the praise of his multiple girlfriends from the motherland.

 


#867 hankzet40

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 12:36 AM

Pretty disheartening to drop this one but a devastating loss after being up two is nothing new this year.



#868 MabusIncarnate

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 01:05 AM

4 goals in 4 games might get the job done if we are all rooting for a soccer team. That's about where i'll leave it. 


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#869 anthonyn66

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 01:07 AM

Hey guys

I'm from Toronto

Guess who came a period away from overcoming a 3-1 deficit last year?

 

Also get Xavier Ouellet up here on the third pairing, he could probably help PP unit #2 as well



#870 PredsFanTheBayouState

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 01:26 AM

Laviollete? Really? Thats everyones suggestion after this? 

 

First off: He is NOT a good coach. Philly suddenly becomes one of the best teams in the league once he gets fired...okay. 

 

Plus hes unemployed for a reason, lots of teams are looking for a head  coach.

 

I am not a babs supporter by any means but he belongs here and does a good job, this team is much better with him than without.

 

Second, its the team Holland gives  to babcock that is the issue. You think any coach can make a team whos second best defenceman is kyle quincey make it past the first round? Let alone make it to the playoffs. 

 

The bottom pairing of Kindl-Lashoff? We probably have a tied series if not for that hole Holland decided to ignore

Laviollete is not unemployed,since he is gonna coach usa at the world championship and is also on the predators list for their next coach


Edited by PredsFanTheBayouState, 25 April 2014 - 01:27 AM.


#871 UKWING

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 01:48 AM

cant believe people are calling for babcock's head - just look at the roster of the wings vs the bruins and it should be clear where the blame lies! they are superior in every area and should have swept the series. the only area we are even close is at forward and even there they have far better balance. hell the wings dont have a single top 6 winger!

it is remarkable that the wings even made the playoffs with the defence we have.

a few years ago our top 4 was lidstrom, rafalski, stuart and kronwall; now it is kronwall, dekeyser, ericsson and smith. that is just depressing!

#872 DeGraa55

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 03:59 AM

cant believe people are calling for babcock's head - just look at the roster of the wings vs the bruins and it should be clear where the blame lies! they are superior in every area and should have swept the series. the only area we are even close is at forward and even there they have far better balance. hell the wings dont have a single top 6 winger!

it is remarkable that the wings even made the playoffs with the defence we have.

a few years ago our top 4 was lidstrom, rafalski, stuart and kronwall; now it is kronwall, dekeyser, ericsson and smith. that is just depressing!


You kind of lose credibility when you can't even get the top four right. Quincey and DK are together. Smith is only on top line(where he should stay) because Ericsson is hurt.

#873 UKWING

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 05:08 AM

You kind of lose credibility when you can't even get the top four right. Quincey and DK are together. Smith is only on top line(where he should stay) because Ericsson is hurt.

yeah you are right - replacing smith with quincey makes the top 4 respectable!

 

quincey, kindl, laschoff and smith are all much of a muchness - they are all crap. i struggle to see how replacing the coach would make any difference - the wings would still have a vastly inferior roster to the top teams.

 

it is the guy that has overseen the wings go from having the best top 4 in hockey to having one of the worst in the space of a few years that has to take the blame



#874 8 Legged RedWing

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 06:19 AM

I love the optimism. But the Wings haven't competed with Boston the last three games for more than one single period.

And somehow they will win three straight? We don't have anymore tricks up our sleeve.

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I didn't say they would win the series but they could still steal a game in Boston. They probably won't but I'm just saying I'll be watching it.

#875 DRW Dominance

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 06:36 AM

i think some people on here just need to realize that sometimes the other team is just flat out better.

 

i could think of many times in this playoffs alone where a team has surrendered a two goal lead.


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#876 brandon27

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 06:38 AM

I can't believe some people are crying to fire Babcock... the best coach in hockey.  Unreal.  Seriously people, take off the homer glasses here, think clearly and realistically.  This team that we have, has no chance against Boston.  Not because of coaching, because of talent.  Boston is stronger, bigger, more talented in every area.  From net, to defensemen, to their forwards.  Add in the fact that Datsyuk clearly is struggling with his injury still, and Zetterberg as well, then combine the fact that the rest of the roster is full of guys who played in the AHL last year, and you should easily be able to see what the problem is here.  It's not the coach.  It's an inexperienced roster, filled with injuries up against the team that is probably going to win the cup.

 

Lets be serious here rather than trying to point the blame at Babcock, or even Holland for that matter... If it wasnt for all these kids currently playing on the Wings that were drafted... we wouldn't even be in the damn playoffs today.  The fact that we even are is a miracle on its own the way this season went, without a guy like Babcock behind the bench steering those kids adn getting the best out of them down the stretch, you could shoot a cannon through this forum right now it would be so empty.


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#877 Euro_Twins

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 07:18 AM

Well its been a heart wrenching season to say the least, but at least we made the playoffs unlike the laughs, but couldn't compete with Boston. Still a light chance but at this point, I think all the haters were right. If we lose next game I won't be around for a while, I can't take the lgw meltdown that will ensue.

#878 RusDRW

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 07:19 AM

I can't believe some people are crying to fire Babcock... the best coach in hockey.  Unreal.  Seriously people, take off the homer glasses here, think clearly and realistically.  This team that we have, has no chance against Boston.  Not because of coaching, because of talent.  Boston is stronger, bigger, more talented in every area.  From net, to defensemen, to their forwards.  Add in the fact that Datsyuk clearly is struggling with his injury still, and Zetterberg as well, then combine the fact that the rest of the roster is full of guys who played in the AHL last year, and you should easily be able to see what the problem is here.  It's not the coach.  It's an inexperienced roster, filled with injuries up against the team that is probably going to win the cup.

 

Lets be serious here rather than trying to point the blame at Babcock, or even Holland for that matter... If it wasnt for all these kids currently playing on the Wings that were drafted... we wouldn't even be in the damn playoffs today.  The fact that we even are is a miracle on its own the way this season went, without a guy like Babcock behind the bench steering those kids adn getting the best out of them down the stretch, you could shoot a cannon through this forum right now it would be so empty.

 

Thanks for your post. I really hope those calling for Babcock's head will read it.

 

I would go even a bit further saying that with the roster we have we play fairly good against one the best teams in the NHL.


Sweet. This dude was brought here for one reason, to punch people in the head - every other thing that he can do, other Wings can do better. I like that we have a head-puncher. The league has other, better head-punchers, but this one is ours. Better than nothing. Good work, Kenny!

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#879 WingsAlways

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 07:25 AM

i think some people on here just need to realize that sometimes the other team is just flat out better.

 

i could think of many times in this playoffs alone where a team has surrendered a two goal lead.

 

Last playoffs Anaheim was the better team as well, how did that work out for them? Oh yeah we got "lucky" because we're the Red Wings. We also got lucky in the following round vs Chicago when we overcame a 3-1 deficit and took them (also the better team) to game 7 and lost out by a single goal. 

 

Never count this team out until they shake hands. Detroit may not be the "better team" but show me a better organization.

 

I'm ready for Saturday. 

 

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#880 kipwinger

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 07:38 AM

I can't believe some people are crying to fire Babcock... the best coach in hockey.  Unreal.  Seriously people, take off the homer glasses here, think clearly and realistically.  This team that we have, has no chance against Boston.  Not because of coaching, because of talent.  Boston is stronger, bigger, more talented in every area.  From net, to defensemen, to their forwards.  Add in the fact that Datsyuk clearly is struggling with his injury still, and Zetterberg as well, then combine the fact that the rest of the roster is full of guys who played in the AHL last year, and you should easily be able to see what the problem is here.  It's not the coach.  It's an inexperienced roster, filled with injuries up against the team that is probably going to win the cup.

 

Lets be serious here rather than trying to point the blame at Babcock, or even Holland for that matter... If it wasnt for all these kids currently playing on the Wings that were drafted... we wouldn't even be in the damn playoffs today.  The fact that we even are is a miracle on its own the way this season went, without a guy like Babcock behind the bench steering those kids adn getting the best out of them down the stretch, you could shoot a cannon through this forum right now it would be so empty.

 

 

You seem to be contradicting yourself here.  In the bolded sections above, you suggest that Babcock's coaching "steered" the kid line, and the success of the kid line got us into the playoffs.  And you use this as evidence to suggest that Babs is a great coach and isn't responsible for the loses in the playoffs. 

 

But you don't mention that Babs broke up the kid line after making the playoffs (as well as the Nyquist-Franzen-Legwand line), and they didn't play a single shift together against Boston. 

 

If putting them together was a smart move by Babs, which ultimately led to success and the playoffs; then breaking them up and not having success would be a bad coaching decision which negatively affected the team's chances of winning, and Babs would ultimately bear responsibility for that decision.  Again, the same is true of Nyquist-Franzen-and Legwand as well.


 

Last playoffs Anaheim was the better team as well, how did that work out for them? Oh yeah we got "lucky" because we're the Red Wings. We also got lucky in the following round vs Chicago when we overcame a 3-1 deficit and took them (also the better team) to game 7 and lost out by a single goal. 

 

Never count this team out until they shake hands. Detroit may not be the "better team" but show me a better organization.

 

I'm ready for Saturday. 

 

We didn't overcome a 3-1 deficit against Chicago.  They overcame a 3-1 deficit to beat us. 


Edited by kipwinger, 25 April 2014 - 07:42 AM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 






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