The Franzen Hate.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Here's the problem, intolerable? Really? You act like he actively shoots us in the foot when he's not scoring. He doesn't. He's a reliable defensive presence. Everyone just expects him to score every game, then he doesn't and fans get frustrated. Yup we have 2nd liner locked up on a long contract. He's never getting bought out barring a huge drop in overall scoring

No one expects him to score every game. They just expect him to compete more games than he does. To use his size. Franzen is increasingly invisible, then he'll pot some goals, then he's invisible again. Zetterberg goes for stretches without scoring but you still know when he's on the ice.

Franzen doesn't actively shoot the team in the foot (though remember that nice pass by him on the Boston goal?), but he floats. He doesn't use his size, he doesn't do much of anything. We could put Drew Miller on the 2nd line and he wouldn't actively shoot the team in the foot. That's a pretty low bar to set for any player.

And it's not just the fans. How many times now have we heard Babcock say that we need more from Mule?

My point with the long contract is the Wings hoped he'd be more than a 2nd line scorer. It was supposed to be Dats, Z, and Franzen as the core of this team. But Franzen has demonstrated he's not really interested in being any sort of leader for this team.

[MileHighWingsGuy 178]

I think before we decide what to do with Frazen we need to clean house at the top. Holland has run his course as the GM and the last few years have been brutal.

I see no solution to guys like Franzen, ToToo, Samuelsson, Cleary, Bertuzzi on and on until we have someone sharp enough to set us on a winning course. Holland seems

very happy with the status quo and the plug and play routine of underperforming veterans hoping to get a final playoff spot to call the season a success.

Every year the young guys are the future is the anthem of Holland and a good majority on the board yet the people we pair them with and the foundation of this team rest on guys who

just don't perform. Franzen is the poster child and a microcosm of what troubles the Wings. He needs to go and we need a GM to make some serious trades and provide

guidance going forward until then its wash and repeat.

[number9 3,297]

If they perform like that for four years running in the playoffs, I will be all over them too. Franzen is a veteran; the kids were playing in their first series against the best team in hockey. Major difference between the two.

Alfredsson and Legwand also had 0 playoff points. Both paid more than Franzen. But we need to bring both of them back right?

[number9 3,297]

No one expects him to score every game. They just expect him to compete more games than he does. To use his size. Franzen is increasingly invisible, then he'll pot some goals, then he's invisible again. Zetterberg goes for stretches without scoring but you still know when he's on the ice.

Franzen doesn't actively shoot the team in the foot (though remember that nice pass by him on the Boston goal?), but he floats. He doesn't use his size, he doesn't do much of anything. We could put Drew Miller on the 2nd line and he wouldn't actively shoot the team in the foot. That's a pretty low bar to set for any player.

And it's not just the fans. How many times now have we heard Babcock say that we need more from Mule?

My point with the long contract is the Wings hoped he'd be more than a 2nd line scorer. It was supposed to be Dats, Z, and Franzen as the core of this team. But Franzen has demonstrated he's not really interested in being any sort of leader for this team.

"Lazy" "Floater"

I still don't buy into those excuses.

He's never been fast. He's never been physical. He's average at D. He has a good wrister.... So basically when he's not scoring he's going to look pretty invisible no matter what u do. He isn't Zetterberg or Datsyuk. He doesn't have elite top line skills like them that get you noticed even in a slump. And that's why he's not paid like them.

[number9 3,297]

His goals come in an increasingly smaller amount of games. Don't get caught up on 30 goals a year. If you count them by games its probably like 15. He's fine if we use him as a third liner but Babcock won't. So get rid of him. I think we need to re-evaluate the roles of players. All of our frustrations come from players who are forced into the wrong roles. Franzen is not a top 6 scorer. He is occasional secondary scoring forward. Abdelkader is not a top line power forward, and hence frustration there.Holland and Babcock need to recalibrate the lineup based on roles players can actually play and go from there. Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

41 pts in 54 games, even in bursts, is not a 3rd liner. I slate him at 2nd line. He's paid and plays like a 2nd liner.

If he was paid 6 or 7 million a year like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, I'd be up in arms with u guys, but he's not. Franzen can get more than 4 million on the open market. It'd be dumb to buy him out.

[fixxxer 11]

41 pts in 54 gp for $4 mill is fine by me. Expecting Franzen to be our teams goal scoring X factor in most games is unrealistic IMO. He's a $4 million dollar player, not a $6 or a $7 million dollar player like Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

"But he could be so much better!"

No he can't. He's good for 50-60 pts a season and that's it. Expecting more bc of his brief 08-09 playoff streak is unfair.

Except that I'm pretty sure Babcock is expecting this. If I'm not mistaken Babcock has called Franzen out more than once. It it seems to me that Holland is filling him in that role the only problem is everyone see's him for what he isn't and he will never fill that role due to his attitude/willingness to fill that role. Picking Franzen over Hossa just proves that point. Flat out Franzen doesn't fit our need on this team he has size which we need but he doesn't use it and he's not a goal scorer which is what Red Wings need on their top 6.

Yeah its unrealistic but our coach, GM, and fans are expecting this out of him. Franzen set the standard to his skill set and only Franzen is failing of his expected role on this team. We don't need a defensive forward we have an overabundance of that on this team. It may not be Franzen's fault for our expectations of him or role that staff want him to be in but he knows what he needs to do and he's not doing it and that's the bottom line.

Trade him or buy him out is the only option that I see.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

"Do u even watch the games bra?"

Everyone is quick to forget that Nyquist was invisible at the beginning of his season And pointless in these playoffs. I personally think Nyquist will be a great player one day, but that's just my amateur opinion. At this point in his career he's just as streaky as Franzen.

The bold shows your maturity. Good job.

Comparing Franzen to Nyquist is ridiculous. Lets compare a 35 year old vet vs a 35 year old vet. Since 2010.

Cleary 30GP 16P 0

Franzen 32GP 12P -12

Don't worry guys, Franzen is still good.

Edit: oh and is apparently average on D

Edited April 27, 2014 by darkmanx

[Guest Playmaker]

"Lazy" "Floater"

I still don't buy into those excuses.

He's never been fast. He's never been physical. He's average at D. He has a good wrister.... So basically when he's not scoring he's going to look pretty invisible no matter what u do. He isn't Zetterberg or Datsyuk. He doesn't have elite top line skills like them that get you noticed even in a slump. And that's why he's not paid like them.

He does have those skills for about 10 games a year. Which is why he gets the criticism. You see this big hulking guy out there with a wicked shot, skating hard, throwing his body around, going to the net, backchecking, being a pest. The whole package. Then there's the other 70 games of the year.

Luke Glendenning scored more goals than Franzen in the playoffs and Franzen makes 8 times as much. Alfredsson scored more goals in less games than Franzen in the regular season and made less money. So if you want to compare stats...........

[number9 3,297]

Except that I'm pretty sure Babcock is expecting this. If I'm not mistaken Babcock has called Franzen out more than once. It it seems to me that Holland is filling him in that role the only problem is everyone see's him for what he isn't and he will never fill that role due to his attitude/willingness to fill that role. Picking Franzen over Hossa just proves that point. Flat out Franzen doesn't fit our need on this team he has size which we need but he doesn't use it and he's not a goal scorer which is what Red Wings need on their top 6.

Yeah its unrealistic but our coach, GM, and fans are expecting this out of him. Franzen set the standard to his skill set and only Franzen is failing of his expected role on this team. We don't need a defensive forward we have an overabundance of that on this team. It may not be Franzen's fault for our expectations of him or role that staff want him to be in but he knows what he needs to do and he's not doing it and that's the bottom line.

Trade him or buy him out is the only option that I see.

If Holland expected him to be a Gaborik/Hossa/Nash type he would have paid him Gaborik/Hossa/Nash level money. Fact is he's paid like a 2nd liner and that's just how he performs. Of course Babcock wants more out of him, Babs doesn't have a top line scorer to depend on and has to defer to Franzen. Just cause we need a top line scorer doesn't mean Franzen is the odd man out.

[number9 3,297]

The bold shows your maturity. Good job.

Comparing Franzen to Nyquist is ridiculous. Lets compare a 35 year old vet vs a 35 year old vet. Since 2010.

Cleary 30GP 16P 0

Franzen 32GP 12P -12

Don't worry guys, Franzen is still good.

Edit: oh and is apparently average on D

The bold shows the first thing everyone says when their own argument is not supported by the stats. They accuse the other person of not watching the games and only reading box scores. And yes it's immature and childish like u said.

So we can't compare Nyquist to Franzen but we can compare Franzen to Cleary? While we're at it let's compare Alfredsson to Samuelsson.

He does have those skills for about 10 games a year. Which is why he gets the criticism. You see this big hulking guy out there with a wicked shot, skating hard, throwing his body around, going to the net, backchecking, being a pest. The whole package. Then there's the other 70 games of the year.

Luke Glendenning scored more goals than Franzen in the playoffs and Franzen makes 8 times as much. Alfredsson scored more goals in less games than Franzen in the regular season and made less money. So if you want to compare stats...........

Alfredsson made over a million more than Franzen in bonuses this year.

So we buyout Franzen. What does he get on the open market?

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Alfredsson and Legwand also had 0 playoff points. Both paid more than Franzen. But we need to bring both of them back right?

Nope. I don't want either of them back and said as much in the GDT yesterday. Well, possibly Alfie because he was hurt, but I'm more than fine with neither playing again for the Red Wings. Just because other players stunk doesn't excuse Franzen being a bum in the playoffs for the past four years.

Edited April 27, 2014 by GoWings1905

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

The bold shows the first thing everyone says when their own argument is not supported by the stats. They accuse the other person of not watching the games and only reading box scores. And yes it's immature and childish like u said.

So we can't compare Nyquist to Franzen but we can compare Franzen to Cleary? While we're at it let's compare Alfredsson to Samuelsson.

Alfredsson made over a million more than Franzen in bonuses this year.

So we buyout Franzen. What does he get on the open market?

Your arguments are littered with only stats, and not what is played on the ice. It's obvious you turn a blind eye to the turnovers he creates, and I'm assuming it's someone else fault for his give away yesterday. Most people seem on the same page about the same flaws with Franzen, but points are all that seem to matter to you. I don't care if he scores 50 points a year, we can put another player to play with Datsyuk that will do that and more.

I compared Franzen with Cleary to show how broken your comparison of Franzen vs Nyquist really is.

[number9 3,297]

Nope. I don't want either of them back and said as much in the GDT yesterday. Well, possibly Alfie because he was hurt, but I'm more than fine with neither playing again for the Red Wings. Just because other players stunk doesn't excuse Franzen being a bum in the playoffs for the past four years.

Ur right, I was just pointing out that everyone not named Datsyuk or Zetterberg had an average to bad playoff outing

[Shinzaki 72]

Franzen isn't a $4 million consistent scorer....that's the point. He's so inconsistent in terms of his effort and output that he becomes a detriment to the team for long stretches. Dump him let every other UFA walk and make every effort to sign Iginla...or Stasny...hell, I'd even let Teemu Pulkinnen have a crack at Franzen's spot before I'd bring Sweden's answer to Prince Fielder back for another year of frustration and "what me worry" attitude when the team is getting drilled

[lomekian 201]

I think we should assume he will not be bought out. So the question, IMO, is what role should we ask him to fill? IMO we should put him back to what he was before his offensive breakout -- a checking-line guy (I prefer him at centre) who shadows the other team's big men (Getzlaf, Thornton et al) and kills penalties. He was very effective in that role and chipped in with the odd goal, including a series winner in OT when he was still a third- or fourth-liner. I think if he was returned to that role, he would not only excel in it, he would regain some of his lost confidence and he'd be worth most of the $4M he's going to collect each of the next six years. Any offence would be a bonus, but we'd stop relying on him to be a big scorer and put that mantle on younger players like Tatar, Nyquist and Mantha.

I see him as a guy that bounces between 2nd and third line depending on form. He plays better the less is expected of him (Babcock's calling him out another example of why for all his good points he is not as smart as Bowman, who treated everyone very differently), and is still getting over injury issues, from a mental standpoint at least. Just sticking on the 4th line doesn't work unless we have more point producers higher up the roster. If Jurco or Mantha break out, then all well and good, or if we pick up a genuine scorer on FA.

Problem is that this roster is short of people with goal-scoring potential, which makes Franzen worth more to us than he otherwise would be. He's still not Sammy bad, and despite variable courage and on-ice work rate, he knees functioning make him more worthwhile than Cleary or Bert or at this stage Weiss. I also think both he and Legwand were misused by Babcock.

[number9 3,297]

Your arguments are littered with only stats, and not what is played on the ice. It's obvious you turn a blind eye to the turnovers he creates, and I'm assuming it's someone else fault for his give away yesterday. Most people seem on the same page about the same flaws with Franzen, but points are all that seem to matter to you. I don't care if he scores 50 points a year, we can put another player to play with Datsyuk that will do that and more.

I compared Franzen with Cleary to show how broken your comparison of Franzen vs Nyquist really is.

So because I use stats to support my argument I must not be a real fan who watches games? Come on man, not only is that a fallacious argument, but it's a low blow to my wings ego. I don't spend an inordinate amount of time here and have almost 2,000 posts because I'm a casual fan.

The point I'm trying to make is that despite whatever problem you have with Franzen, he's worth 4 million, and could probably get 4.5 per year on the FA market. You don't buyout guys who are worth their cap hit. You don't even buyout guys who are slightly overpaid.

I agree we can put a better player with Datsyuk too. I don't want want Franzen playing with Datsyuk. I've said he's a 2nd liner time and time again in this thread. I consider Datsyuk a 1st liner.

[lomekian 201]

They also all make under 1 million and aren't 34 years old and declining.

Franzen can be an effective defensive forward good for 50 points a year but that's not what he's here for. He's here to be our goal scored and until he's gone people will get pissed when he doesn't score goals. The guy doesn't suck, he's just in the wrong role. Which is why I say we should trade him. Someone will give us something for him.

Good call...the problem with trading him is the danger if he goes somewhere he's not happy and calls it a day, and the cap hit therein. Much easier to keep him going and control his LITR status if he stays. With the likes of Jurco, Mantha, Pulks, Janmark, AA the greek, and maybe who we draft this year all possible scoring line players in the not too distant future, in addition to tats and nyquist, & the likelehood of having to try to get Weiss going, and the pressure to re-sign legwand due to what was given up, JF as a 3rd line winger on the wings next year, who will try to roll 4 lines, suddenly is a real possibility.

[number9 3,297]

Your arguments are littered with only stats, and not what is played on the ice. It's obvious you turn a blind eye to the turnovers he creates, and I'm assuming it's someone else fault for his give away yesterday. Most people seem on the same page about the same flaws with Franzen, but points are all that seem to matter to you. I don't care if he scores 50 points a year, we can put another player to play with Datsyuk that will do that and more.

I compared Franzen with Cleary to show how broken your comparison of Franzen vs Nyquist really is.

Oh, so because of yesterdays turnover Franzen is now labeled as an overall turnover machine? Yeah, that was a bad give away. But it was also just one of only two give aways he had in the PO's. He also lead the team in take-aways during the PO's with 4. Now those stats do have some recording errors, but they still don't paint the picture of a guy who consistently gives away pucks.

Sincerely,

Guy who only reads boxscores

[lomekian 201]

The Wings didn't hand him an 11 year contract because they wanted to lock up a 2nd liner for the next decade. Especially one who doesn't score in the playoffs. They may know exactly what he is now, but it's not what they hoped he'd be in 2009.

It is why Franzen is likely staying here though. He'll put up his points assuming he stays healthy. He just isn't THE guy and never will be. So the Wings can keep him for some second line scoring during the regular season but need to find a goal scorer who plays like he gives a s*** and will put up points in the playoffs.

I'm guessing it'll be at least a couple more seasons until he becomes so intolerable that Holland will buy him out or make a trade.

Agree - If the wings want a premium goal scorer, they need to get one and pay for him. Franzen is a 2nd liner who has bad streaks and good streaks. He is paid accordingly.....he should have been paid a little more for 2 years and less down the line, but right now he gets paid what he's worth in comparison to others.

His goals come in an increasingly smaller amount of games. Don't get caught up on 30 goals a year. If you count them by games its probably like 15. He's fine if we use him as a third liner but Babcock won't. So get rid of him. I think we need to re-evaluate the roles of players. All of our frustrations come from players who are forced into the wrong roles. Franzen is not a top 6 scorer. He is occasional secondary scoring forward. Abdelkader is not a top line power forward, and hence frustration there. Holland and Babcock need to recalibrate the lineup based on roles players can actually play and go from there. Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

I think we can all find common ground on this one...

[lomekian 201]

He does have those skills for about 10 games a year. Which is why he gets the criticism. You see this big hulking guy out there with a wicked shot, skating hard, throwing his body around, going to the net, backchecking, being a pest. The whole package. Then there's the other 70 games of the year.

Luke Glendenning scored more goals than Franzen in the playoffs and Franzen makes 8 times as much. Alfredsson scored more goals in less games than Franzen in the regular season and made less money. So if you want to compare stats...........

Alfie made 1.5m more if you include his bonuses. Glendenning also had more goals than Ryan Callahan, Filpulla & Purcell from Tampa, Berglund, Morrow, Backes, Roy & Ott for STL, Hartnell

And so far Hartnell, Couturier, Rick Nash, Brassard, Koivu, Sellane, Krejci, Soderberg & Marchand.....ignoring all the other teams. Indeed Franzen has more or as many points as those guys too.....

Not a very useful stat.

[nawein 324]

Alfie made 1.5m more if you include his bonuses. Glendenning also had more goals than Ryan Callahan, Filpulla & Purcell from Tampa, Berglund, Morrow, Backes, Roy & Ott for STL, Hartnell

And so far Hartnell, Couturier, Rick Nash, Brassard, Koivu, Sellane, Krejci, Soderberg & Marchand.....ignoring all the other teams. Indeed Franzen has more or as many points as those guys too.....

Not a very useful stat.

Just to correct something I've seen misstated a few times in this thread, Alfie made only 500k more than Franzen this year. Franzens cap hit is just under 4, his salary this year was 5.

[wingnut_05 8]

for this quote alone, he should go.

"I always want to play defense first and make sure I don't make any mistakes in my own end and try to help out the D"

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/04/johan_franzens_lack_of_product.html

[Guest Playmaker]

I really don't think the expectations should only be based only on his salary. Those extended year contracts from 5 years ago, weren't signed with the expectation that any of the players were actually going to play until the end of them. The CBA at the time allowed the teams to be off the hook if the player retired. Those last few years where he was only going to be making a million or whatever, was more of a *wink, wink*, we really expect him to be playing when he's 42. So while the cap hit right now is 3.9, that isn't what he's actually making. With the new CBA the Wings are going to be paying the price for the "only 3.9 million dollar second liner Franzen.

Hossa isn't making in the 7-8 million dollar range either. His cap hit is only a little over 5. Not bad for a second line guy.

[Guest Playmaker]

Alfie made 1.5m more if you include his bonuses. Glendenning also had more goals than Ryan Callahan, Filpulla & Purcell from Tampa, Berglund, Morrow, Backes, Roy & Ott for STL, Hartnell

And so far Hartnell, Couturier, Rick Nash, Brassard, Koivu, Sellane, Krejci, Soderberg & Marchand.....ignoring all the other teams. Indeed Franzen has more or as many points as those guys too.....

Not a very useful stat

Yawn, you can stat us to death and ignore all the ones that disprove your theories. Find the stat that refutes that his own coach didn't think he was doing enough.

[Guest DeGraa55]

Filppula: on pace for 63 pts

Franzen: on pace for 62 pts

Fil costs about a million more than Franzen, so Tampa should buy him out right?

Franzen buy out a no brainer? U ppl live in a bizarre fantasy land

Hudler: on pace for 59 pts and he costs the same as Franzen. Calgary definitely going to buy him out too *rolls eyes*

What a clown. Do you watch hockey? Fil plays defense and actually makes an effort. Franzen floats floats and does some more floating.