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The Franzen Hate.


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#361 Euro_Twins

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 11:20 PM

Yeah because I said I wanted to fill the roster with guys like that. But thanks for pointing out you barely make the playoffs when people don't produce like Franzen. The point I was making is if you're going to spend money you should get a return for it.


You're right. 41 points in 54 games isn't producing. If $4m players are supposed to produce at a ppg pace I guess you're right.

#362 plopster

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 11:21 PM

Good thing Franzen is worth 4 mil

He's only worth about 2.5 what bothers me most is that they're paying him 4 mil for 5 more years. He's peaked and they can't drop him. Maybe he gets concussed and has to retire. Best case scenario.
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#363 nawein

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 11:37 PM

He's only worth about 2.5 what bothers me most is that they're paying him 4 mil for 5 more years. He's peaked and they can't drop him. Maybe he gets concussed and has to retire. Best case scenario.


The fact that you're wishing a person an injury serious enough to end a career is pretty classless. Hockey and what he's worth on the ice aside, that's low.

#364 DeGraa55

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 12:04 AM

The fact that you're wishing a person an injury serious enough to end a career is pretty classless. Hockey and what he's worth on the ice aside, that's low.


Agreed it is low cause if he officially retires we still have to pay his useless ass. We want him on LITR not retirement. :)

#365 Nightfall

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:11 AM

You're right. 41 points in 54 games isn't producing. If $4m players are supposed to produce at a ppg pace I guess you're right.

 

This right here.  I still haven't heard a single person give me a player that we could sign for $4 million a season that would produce like that.  Sure, ditch Franzen and sign Vanek for $6 million a season, and watch him produce less and disappear in the playoffs as well.


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#366 Rivalred

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:51 AM

Do not know if this goes for everyone, but the reason why Johan leaves such a bad taste in my mouth and frustration is due to his lack of effort at times, and making comments such as "he wants to have fun" versus when he plays with focus and intensity, he is like a man possessed, and can change the entire game.

Maybe this is why he is criticized so heavily....
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#367 number9

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 10:06 AM

Do not know if this goes for everyone, but the reason why Johan leaves such a bad taste in my mouth and frustration is due to his lack of effort at times, and making comments such as "he wants to have fun" versus when he plays with focus and intensity, he is like a man possessed, and can change the entire game.

Maybe this is why he is criticized so heavily....


Of course, but that doesn't make him worth buying out. He definitely scores in bunches and we will always have to deal with that

#368 DickieDunn

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 10:41 AM

People are judging this contract based on the length.  He wasn't supposed to play the last 2 or 3 years of it, and under the rules that were in place when it was signed there would have been no cap implications for him retiring.  The only thing that makes it a remotely bad contract is the NHL retroactively punishing teams with front loaded contracts.  Consistency issues aside, Franzen puts up a good number of points for his cap hit.  How many guys who have signed as a UFA are putting up better numbers for the same money or less?  Virtually all of them are still on entry level or RFA contracts where they had less leverage and therefore got less, or had done nothing to indicate that they could score 25+ goals before signing their current contract.  People are talking about giving Vanek $3 mil more.  Over the last 3 full seasons plus the lockout, you get something like 3 more goals and 10 more points from Vanek than you do Franzen, and Vanek is less engaged away from the puck or when he's not scoring.  If Vanek is worth $6 or 7 mil, Franzen certainly is worth $4 mil.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#369 plopster

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:42 AM

People are judging this contract based on the length.  He wasn't supposed to play the last 2 or 3 years of it, and under the rules that were in place when it was signed there would have been no cap implications for him retiring.  The only thing that makes it a remotely bad contract is the NHL retroactively punishing teams with front loaded contracts.  Consistency issues aside, Franzen puts up a good number of points for his cap hit.  How many guys who have signed as a UFA are putting up better numbers for the same money or less?  Virtually all of them are still on entry level or RFA contracts where they had less leverage and therefore got less, or had done nothing to indicate that they could score 25+ goals before signing their current contract.  People are talking about giving Vanek $3 mil more.  Over the last 3 full seasons plus the lockout, you get something like 3 more goals and 10 more points from Vanek than you do Franzen, and Vanek is less engaged away from the puck or when he's not scoring.  If Vanek is worth $6 or 7 mil, Franzen certainly is worth $4 mil.


I sure as s*** wouldn't pay vanek that much either. He wouldn't get more than 3 mil per. But I wouldn't want him anyway. Id rather see them chance on someone like gaborik that has proven himself before. But really it would be better to go with someone that has had little injury issues. Guys with nagging injuries are really annoying.
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#370 plopster

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:50 AM

The fact that you're wishing a person an injury serious enough to end a career is pretty classless. Hockey and what he's worth on the ice aside, that's low.


No, I WISH he would be more dedicated and play hard every night and put in the effort that got him his nickname. But if he isn't going to do that then he should quit. As a paying fan and one who will have to pay more for a ticket for a new arena do not want to see someone take nights off. If you don't feel like playing that night then tell them and take a scratch.

Edited by plopster, 07 June 2014 - 11:51 AM.

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#371 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:54 AM

Do not know if this goes for everyone, but the reason why Johan leaves such a bad taste in my mouth and frustration is due to his lack of effort at times, and making comments such as "he wants to have fun" versus when he plays with focus and intensity, he is like a man possessed, and can change the entire game.

Maybe this is why he is criticized so heavily....

 

Exactly.  It's been well established that because of his cap circumventing contract his production, even though half-assed, is worth the cap hit. 

 

That makes him a poor candidate for buyout, but he's still become increasingly bad for the team.  More and more he's a guy who you desperately hope will show up, but can in no way count on it.  Particularly come playoff time. 

 

Unless Holland makes an uncharacteristic move and packages Franzen in a huge trade, we're stuck with him.  But that doesn't mean I have to be happy with a player who consistently underperforms, no matter what his AAV is. 



#372 Rivalred

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 01:58 PM

Of course, but that doesn't make him worth buying out. He definitely scores in bunches and we will always have to deal with that


In my post or in this thread I don't think I mentioned my thoughts on him being bought out or not; with that being said, a player that comes to player every night such as Z or Pavs or even Miller, they give 110% every second, minute, and shift. Now when you look at the effort with those players versus Johan, well, it was already pointed out
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#373 Euro_Twins

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 03:19 PM

In my post or in this thread I don't think I mentioned my thoughts on him being bought out or not; with that being said, a player that comes to player every night such as Z or Pavs or even Miller, they give 110% every second, minute, and shift. Now when you look at the effort with those players versus Johan, well, it was already pointed out

 

 

those guys also get payed handsomely for it...Franzen is paid the money that a player who puts up 50+ points/year and takes a bunch of nights off will make, in fact he is paid less then most of those players would.Miller doesn't provide much offensively but he is great defensively, so he gets paid relatively well for what he provides, Z and D are the heart and soul of our team (along with helm) and they put up big points, and are always backchecking, and never take nights off, but they also make way more money then he does.

 

It would fare better if you compared apples to apples

 

Vanek - $7m/year cap hit, just as streakey, probably will get $6m/year on his next contract

Nash - $7.8 m/year cap hit, see Vanek

Hall - $6m/year cap hit, just as streaky

Thornton - $7m/year cap hit, very streaky

Kessel - Starting an 8 year $64 million deal, he has been very streaky almost every year

Ovechkin - $9.5 m/year oh boy ovechkin is the worst of the worst, he has recently started scoring a lot of goals again, but he is not engaged ever, 28 assists, that is all he gotthis year. that would be good for 4th on ourteam that barely scored this year, for the guy with the highest cap hit in the league, unacceptable.

 

These are all very streaky players that don't provide much when they go cold and they all make considerably more than franzen. The grass is always greener, but everyone here would copmplain just as much, if not more if we had any of those players, and considering their cap hits and productions, I will take Mule every time 



#374 Rivalred

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 03:37 PM

 
 
those guys also get payed handsomely for it...Franzen is paid the money that a player who puts up 50+ points/year and takes a bunch of nights off will make, in fact he is paid less then most of those players would.Miller doesn't provide much offensively but he is great defensively, so he gets paid relatively well for what he provides, Z and D are the heart and soul of our team (along with helm) and they put up big points, and are always backchecking, and never take nights off, but they also make way more money then he does.
 
It would fare better if you compared apples to apples
 
Vanek - $7m/year cap hit, just as streakey, probably will get $6m/year on his next contract
Nash - $7.8 m/year cap hit, see Vanek
Hall - $6m/year cap hit, just as streaky
Thornton - $7m/year cap hit, very streaky
Kessel - Starting an 8 year $64 million deal, he has been very streaky almost every year
Ovechkin - $9.5 m/year oh boy ovechkin is the worst of the worst, he has recently started scoring a lot of goals again, but he is not engaged ever, 28 assists, that is all he gotthis year. that would be good for 4th on ourteam that barely scored this year, for the guy with the highest cap hit in the league, unacceptable.
 
These are all very streaky players that don't provide much when they go cold and they all make considerably more than franzen. The grass is always greener, but everyone here would copmplain just as much, if not more if we had any of those players, and considering their cap hits and productions, I will take Mule every time 

You are telling me that Johan looks at how much he makes and decides on how many goals, assists, and effort he will bring?

Edited by Rivalred, 07 June 2014 - 03:38 PM.

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#375 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 03:40 PM

 

 

those guys also get payed handsomely for it...Franzen is paid the money that a player who puts up 50+ points/year and takes a bunch of nights off will make, in fact he is paid less then most of those players would.Miller doesn't provide much offensively but he is great defensively, so he gets paid relatively well for what he provides, Z and D are the heart and soul of our team (along with helm) and they put up big points, and are always backchecking, and never take nights off, but they also make way more money then he does.

 

It would fare better if you compared apples to apples

 

Vanek - $7m/year cap hit, just as streakey, probably will get $6m/year on his next contract

Nash - $7.8 m/year cap hit, see Vanek

Hall - $6m/year cap hit, just as streaky

Thornton - $7m/year cap hit, very streaky

Kessel - Starting an 8 year $64 million deal, he has been very streaky almost every year

Ovechkin - $9.5 m/year oh boy ovechkin is the worst of the worst, he has recently started scoring a lot of goals again, but he is not engaged ever, 28 assists, that is all he gotthis year. that would be good for 4th on ourteam that barely scored this year, for the guy with the highest cap hit in the league, unacceptable.

 

These are all very streaky players that don't provide much when they go cold and they all make considerably more than franzen. The grass is always greener, but everyone here would copmplain just as much, if not more if we had any of those players, and considering their cap hits and productions, I will take Mule every time 

 

Are you saying those guys are an apples to apples comparison to Franzen??

 

They've all produced at a level Franzen never has, and many of them are significantly younger.



#376 Euro_Twins

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 03:41 PM

You are telling me that Johan looks at how much he makes and decides on how many goals, assists, and afford he will bring?


That is exactly what I said, word for word. You didn't put words in my mouth at all.

All I did was point out that there are worse contracts out there, and that franzens contract gets way more flack than it should. Everyone wishes he would be more consistent, but the fact remains he isn't but he is still a very good two way forward and his defensive *** is extremely underrated around here. Take what you will from my post, I provided facts, you made up what I was thinking. I have you the info, you do with it what you like.

#377 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 03:43 PM

That is exactly what I said, word for word. You didn't put words in my mouth at all.

All I did was point out that there are worse contracts out there, and that franzens contract gets way more flack than it should. Everyone wishes he would be more consistent, but the fact remains he isn't but he is still a very good two way forward and his defensive *** is extremely underrated around here. Take what you will from my post, I provided facts, you made up what I was thinking. I have you the info, you do with it what you like.

 

For the millionth time, it's not the contract.  His contract is mostly used by people who are content with his mediocre effort.

 

It's about an extremely talented player with great size and ability who half asses for long stretches that seem to be getting longer each season. 



#378 Euro_Twins

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 03:46 PM

They are all very streaky and have much larger cap hits, they are expected to produce more than franzen, I was pointing out how streaky they are. You're commenting how they have produced at a higher level has nothing to do with my post. That's like saying abdelkader should score 50 points a year even though he is paid way less than franzen

 
For the millionth time, it's not the contract.  His contract is mostly used by people who are content with his mediocre effort.
 
It's about an extremely talented player with great size and ability who half asses for long stretches that seem to be getting longer each season. 


I understand that, which is why I pointed out how much higher paid players are just as streaky. Like I said I would love for him to be more consistent, but it seems par for the course these days that high talent players score in bunches then disappear. He isn't elite and never has been.

#379 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 03:55 PM

They are all very streaky and have much larger cap hits, they are expected to produce more than franzen, I was pointing out how streaky they are. You're commenting how they have produced at a higher level has nothing to do with my post. That's like saying abdelkader should score 50 points a year even though he is paid way less than franzen

I understand that, which is why I pointed out how much higher paid players are just as streaky. Like I said I would love for him to be more consistent, but it seems par for the course these days that high talent players score in bunches then disappear. He isn't elite and never has been.

 

It absolutely has something to do with your post because I was trying to clarify your point.  

 

You said apples to apples comparison to Franzen, but then went on to list a bunch of guys who all produce at a higher level.  I didn't understand what you meant. 

 

And Franzen isn't just streaky.  Most goal scorers are streaky.  Franzen plays some nights like he doesn't give a rat's ass.  

 

Not to mention everyone defending him continues to ignore that he has 12 points and is -11 over his last 32 playoff games. 



#380 plopster

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 04:04 PM

You're basically saying that people can be streaky and not put in effort and it's ok because that's a common theme in the nhl. The only reason they do that is because gms and coaches let them. If they all got together and decided they weren't going to reward sub par play with stupid contracts then guys would straighten up. It doesn't mean I have to be ok with it. Id rather they brought on a younger guy that is hungry than have someone lazy and having fun and happy with his season.
I still think this all started when he hurt his knee the beginning of the 2010 season. He hasn't been the same since.
Which is why if I'm a GM, no way I'm putting a guy in a long term contract like that. He gets hurt and boom you just screwed yourself.

Edited by plopster, 07 June 2014 - 04:05 PM.

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