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The Franzen Hate.


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#121 number9

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:14 PM

Hockey isn't purely an exercise in statistics...you can't look at Franzen and say "he got us 41 pts...OK"    You have to look at the actual games.  He's shown NOTHING in the playoffs the last few years and his production in a major portion of the regular season was equally poor.   You simply cannot have a guy getting top six minutes sleepwalk through the majority of your games..   Send a message to the team about consistency of effort and dump him now...


So which $4 million consistent scorer should we grab?

#122 rking72

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:15 PM

I know this may not be the most popular thing, but after watching this series I would have no problem buying out Franzen and letting Alfredsson walk and using that money to acquire Iginla


Edited by rking72, 27 April 2014 - 01:15 PM.


#123 number9

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:21 PM

They also all make under 1 million and aren't 34 years old and declining.

Franzen can be an effective defensive forward good for 50 points a year but that's not what he's here for. He's here to be our goal scored and until he's gone people will get pissed when he doesn't score goals. The guy doesn't suck, he's just in the wrong role. Which is why I say we should trade him. Someone will give us something for him.


For a guy who's here to be THE goal scorer, he certainly isn't paid like one. Maybe it's just the fans who want him to be that guy, and the wings know exactly what he is: a $4 million 2nd line scorer

#124 Supface

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:35 PM

I laugh every time Franzen loses the puck with no pressure on him or can't catch a pass because I think back of all the times he was touted by announcers as having some of the "softest hands" in the league.

Dude must use a lot of Jurgens because he definitely can't handle the puck.

#125 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:42 PM

For a guy who's here to be THE goal scorer, he certainly isn't paid like one. Maybe it's just the fans who want him to be that guy, and the wings know exactly what he is: a $4 million 2nd line scorer

 

The Wings didn't hand him an 11 year contract because they wanted to lock up a 2nd liner for the next decade.  Especially one who doesn't score in the playoffs.  They may know exactly what he is now, but it's not what they hoped he'd be in 2009.

 

It is why Franzen is likely staying here though.  He'll put up his points assuming he stays healthy.  He just isn't THE guy and never will be.  So the Wings can keep him for some second line scoring during the regular season but need to find a goal scorer who plays like he gives a s*** and will put up points in the playoffs.

 

I'm guessing it'll be at least a couple more seasons until he becomes so intolerable that Holland will buy him out or make a trade.  



#126 number9

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 02:02 PM

 
The Wings didn't hand him an 11 year contract because they wanted to lock up a 2nd liner for the next decade.  Especially one who doesn't score in the playoffs.  They may know exactly what he is now, but it's not what they hoped he'd be in 2009.
 
It is why Franzen is likely staying here though.  He'll put up his points assuming he stays healthy.  He just isn't THE guy and never will be.  So the Wings can keep him for some second line scoring during the regular season but need to find a goal scorer who plays like he gives a s*** and will put up points in the playoffs.
 
I'm guessing it'll be at least a couple more seasons until he becomes so intolerable that Holland will buy him out or make a trade.  


Here's the problem, intolerable? Really? You act like he actively shoots us in the foot when he's not scoring. He doesn't. He's a reliable defensive presence. Everyone just expects him to score every game, then he doesn't and fans get frustrated. Yup we have 2nd liner locked up on a long contract. He's never getting bought out barring a huge drop in overall scoring

#127 GoWings1905

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 02:35 PM

Not one of the kids had a pt in the playoffs either, but they are cool and new unlike Franzen


If they perform like that for four years running in the playoffs, I will be all over them too. Franzen is a veteran; the kids were playing in their first series against the best team in hockey. Major difference between the two.
 
 
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#128 VM1138

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 02:40 PM

Hockey isn't purely an exercise in statistics...you can't look at Franzen and say "he got us 41 pts...OK" You have to look at the actual games. He's shown NOTHING in the playoffs the last few years and his production in a major portionof the regular season was equally poor. You simply cannot have a guy getting top six minutes sleepwalk through the majority of your games.. Send a message to the team about consistency of effort and dump him now...

So which $4 million consistent scorer should we grab?


His goals come in an increasingly smaller amount of games. Don't get caught up on 30 goals a year. If you count them by games its probably like 15.

He's fine if we use him as a third liner but Babcock won't. So get rid of him. I think we need to re-evaluate the roles of players. All of our frustrations come from players who are forced into the wrong roles. Franzen is not a top 6 scorer. He is occasional secondary scoring forward. Abdelkader is not a top line power forward, and hence frustration there.

Holland and Babcock need to recalibrate the lineup based on roles players can actually play and go from there.

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#129 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 02:50 PM

Here's the problem, intolerable? Really? You act like he actively shoots us in the foot when he's not scoring. He doesn't. He's a reliable defensive presence. Everyone just expects him to score every game, then he doesn't and fans get frustrated. Yup we have 2nd liner locked up on a long contract. He's never getting bought out barring a huge drop in overall scoring

 

No one expects him to score every game.  They just expect him to compete more games than he does.  To use his size.  Franzen is increasingly invisible, then he'll pot some goals, then he's invisible again.   Zetterberg goes for stretches without scoring but you still know when he's on the ice.

 

Franzen doesn't actively shoot the team in the foot (though remember that nice pass by him on the Boston goal?), but he floats.  He doesn't use his size, he doesn't do much of anything.  We could put Drew Miller on the 2nd line and he wouldn't actively shoot the team in the foot.   That's a pretty low bar to set for any player.

 

And it's not just the fans.  How many times now have we heard Babcock say that we need more from Mule?

 

My point with the long contract is the Wings hoped he'd be more than a 2nd line scorer.  It was supposed to be Dats, Z, and Franzen as the core of this team.  But Franzen has demonstrated he's not really interested in being any sort of leader for this team. 



#130 MileHighWingsGuy

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 03:14 PM

I think before we decide what to do with Frazen we need to clean house at the top. Holland has run his course as the GM and the last few years have been brutal.

I see no solution to guys like Franzen, ToToo, Samuelsson, Cleary, Bertuzzi on and on until we have someone sharp enough to set us on a winning course. Holland seems

very happy with the status quo and the plug and play routine of underperforming veterans hoping to get a final playoff spot to call the season a success.

 

Every year the young guys are the future is the anthem of Holland and a good majority on the board yet the people we pair them with and the foundation of this team rest on guys who

just don't perform. Franzen is the poster child and a microcosm of what troubles the Wings. He needs to go and we need a GM to make some serious trades and provide

guidance going forward until then its wash and repeat.


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#131 number9

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 03:19 PM

If they perform like that for four years running in the playoffs, I will be all over them too. Franzen is a veteran; the kids were playing in their first series against the best team in hockey. Major difference between the two.


Alfredsson and Legwand also had 0 playoff points. Both paid more than Franzen. But we need to bring both of them back right?

#132 number9

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 03:26 PM

 
No one expects him to score every game.  They just expect him to compete more games than he does.  To use his size.  Franzen is increasingly invisible, then he'll pot some goals, then he's invisible again.   Zetterberg goes for stretches without scoring but you still know when he's on the ice.
 
Franzen doesn't actively shoot the team in the foot (though remember that nice pass by him on the Boston goal?), but he floats.  He doesn't use his size, he doesn't do much of anything.  We could put Drew Miller on the 2nd line and he wouldn't actively shoot the team in the foot.   That's a pretty low bar to set for any player.
 
And it's not just the fans.  How many times now have we heard Babcock say that we need more from Mule?
 
My point with the long contract is the Wings hoped he'd be more than a 2nd line scorer.  It was supposed to be Dats, Z, and Franzen as the core of this team.  But Franzen has demonstrated he's not really interested in being any sort of leader for this team. 


"Lazy" "Floater"

I still don't buy into those excuses.

He's never been fast. He's never been physical. He's average at D. He has a good wrister.... So basically when he's not scoring he's going to look pretty invisible no matter what u do. He isn't Zetterberg or Datsyuk. He doesn't have elite top line skills like them that get you noticed even in a slump. And that's why he's not paid like them.

#133 number9

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 03:35 PM

His goals come in an increasingly smaller amount of games. Don't get caught up on 30 goals a year. If you count them by games its probably like 15. He's fine if we use him as a third liner but Babcock won't. So get rid of him. I think we need to re-evaluate the roles of players. All of our frustrations come from players who are forced into the wrong roles. Franzen is not a top 6 scorer. He is occasional secondary scoring forward. Abdelkader is not a top line power forward, and hence frustration there.Holland and Babcock need to recalibrate the lineup based on roles players can actually play and go from there. Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2


41 pts in 54 games, even in bursts, is not a 3rd liner. I slate him at 2nd line. He's paid and plays like a 2nd liner.

If he was paid 6 or 7 million a year like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, I'd be up in arms with u guys, but he's not. Franzen can get more than 4 million on the open market. It'd be dumb to buy him out.

#134 fixxxer

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 03:38 PM

41 pts in 54 gp for $4 mill is fine by me. Expecting Franzen to be our teams goal scoring X factor in most games is unrealistic IMO. He's a $4 million dollar player, not a $6 or a $7 million dollar player like Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

"But he could be so much better!"

No he can't. He's good for 50-60 pts a season and that's it. Expecting more bc of his brief 08-09 playoff streak is unfair.

 

Except that I'm pretty sure Babcock is expecting this. If I'm not mistaken Babcock has called Franzen out more than once. It it seems to me that Holland is filling him in that role the only problem is everyone see's him for what he isn't and he will never fill that role due to his attitude/willingness to fill that role. Picking Franzen over Hossa just proves that point. Flat out Franzen doesn't fit our need on this team he has size which we need but he doesn't use it and he's not a goal scorer which is what Red Wings need on their top 6.

 

Yeah its unrealistic but our coach, GM, and fans are expecting this out of him. Franzen set the standard to his skill set and only Franzen is failing of his expected role on this team. We don't need a defensive forward we have an overabundance of that on this team.  It may not be Franzen's fault for our expectations of him or role that staff want him to be in but he knows what he needs to do and he's not doing it and that's the bottom line.

 

Trade him or buy him out is the only option that I see.



#135 darkmanx

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 03:50 PM

"Do u even watch the games bra?"

Everyone is quick to forget that Nyquist was invisible at the beginning of his season And pointless in these playoffs. I personally think Nyquist will be a great player one day, but that's just my amateur opinion. At this point in his career he's just as streaky as Franzen.

 

The bold shows your maturity. Good job.

 

Comparing Franzen to Nyquist is ridiculous. Lets compare a 35 year old vet vs a 35 year old vet. Since 2010.

 

Cleary 30GP 16P 0

 

Franzen 32GP 12P -12

 

Don't worry guys, Franzen is still good.

Edit: oh and is apparently average on D


Edited by darkmanx, 27 April 2014 - 03:51 PM.


#136 Playmaker

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 03:50 PM

"Lazy" "Floater"

I still don't buy into those excuses.

He's never been fast. He's never been physical. He's average at D. He has a good wrister.... So basically when he's not scoring he's going to look pretty invisible no matter what u do. He isn't Zetterberg or Datsyuk. He doesn't have elite top line skills like them that get you noticed even in a slump. And that's why he's not paid like them.

He does have those skills for about 10 games a year.  Which is why he gets the criticism.  You see this big hulking guy out there with a wicked shot, skating hard, throwing his body around, going to the net, backchecking, being a pest.  The whole package.  Then there's the other 70 games of the year.  

 

Luke Glendenning scored more goals than Franzen in the playoffs and Franzen makes 8 times as much.  Alfredsson scored more goals in less games than Franzen in the regular season and made less money.  So if you want to compare stats...........  



#137 number9

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 03:51 PM

 
Except that I'm pretty sure Babcock is expecting this. If I'm not mistaken Babcock has called Franzen out more than once. It it seems to me that Holland is filling him in that role the only problem is everyone see's him for what he isn't and he will never fill that role due to his attitude/willingness to fill that role. Picking Franzen over Hossa just proves that point. Flat out Franzen doesn't fit our need on this team he has size which we need but he doesn't use it and he's not a goal scorer which is what Red Wings need on their top 6.
 
Yeah its unrealistic but our coach, GM, and fans are expecting this out of him. Franzen set the standard to his skill set and only Franzen is failing of his expected role on this team. We don't need a defensive forward we have an overabundance of that on this team.  It may not be Franzen's fault for our expectations of him or role that staff want him to be in but he knows what he needs to do and he's not doing it and that's the bottom line.
 
Trade him or buy him out is the only option that I see.


If Holland expected him to be a Gaborik/Hossa/Nash type he would have paid him Gaborik/Hossa/Nash level money. Fact is he's paid like a 2nd liner and that's just how he performs. Of course Babcock wants more out of him, Babs doesn't have a top line scorer to depend on and has to defer to Franzen. Just cause we need a top line scorer doesn't mean Franzen is the odd man out.

#138 number9

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:01 PM

 
The bold shows your maturity. Good job.
 
Comparing Franzen to Nyquist is ridiculous. Lets compare a 35 year old vet vs a 35 year old vet. Since 2010.
 
Cleary 30GP 16P 0
 
Franzen 32GP 12P -12
 
Don't worry guys, Franzen is still good.
Edit: oh and is apparently average on D


The bold shows the first thing everyone says when their own argument is not supported by the stats. They accuse the other person of not watching the games and only reading box scores. And yes it's immature and childish like u said.

So we can't compare Nyquist to Franzen but we can compare Franzen to Cleary? While we're at it let's compare Alfredsson to Samuelsson.

He does have those skills for about 10 games a year.  Which is why he gets the criticism.  You see this big hulking guy out there with a wicked shot, skating hard, throwing his body around, going to the net, backchecking, being a pest.  The whole package.  Then there's the other 70 games of the year.  
 
Luke Glendenning scored more goals than Franzen in the playoffs and Franzen makes 8 times as much.  Alfredsson scored more goals in less games than Franzen in the regular season and made less money.  So if you want to compare stats...........  


Alfredsson made over a million more than Franzen in bonuses this year.

So we buyout Franzen. What does he get on the open market?

#139 GoWings1905

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:02 PM

Alfredsson and Legwand also had 0 playoff points. Both paid more than Franzen. But we need to bring both of them back right?


Nope. I don't want either of them back and said as much in the GDT yesterday. Well, possibly Alfie because he was hurt, but I'm more than fine with neither playing again for the Red Wings. Just because other players stunk doesn't excuse Franzen being a bum in the playoffs for the past four years.

Edited by GoWings1905, 27 April 2014 - 04:05 PM.

 
 
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#140 darkmanx

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:12 PM

The bold shows the first thing everyone says when their own argument is not supported by the stats. They accuse the other person of not watching the games and only reading box scores. And yes it's immature and childish like u said.

So we can't compare Nyquist to Franzen but we can compare Franzen to Cleary? While we're at it let's compare Alfredsson to Samuelsson.

Alfredsson made over a million more than Franzen in bonuses this year.

So we buyout Franzen. What does he get on the open market?

 

Your arguments are littered with only stats, and not what is played on the ice. It's obvious you turn a blind eye to the turnovers he creates, and I'm assuming it's someone else fault for his give away yesterday. Most people seem on the same page about the same flaws with Franzen, but points are all that seem to matter to you. I don't care if he scores 50 points a year, we can put another player to play with Datsyuk that will do that and more.

 

I compared Franzen with Cleary to show how broken your comparison of Franzen vs Nyquist really is.







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