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The Franzen Hate.


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#161 joesuffP

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:05 PM

I think it's a Babcock-Franzen thing. I could see him having success with a new coach. I see a lot of our guys being more productive with another coach but I still think he's a good coach just some players can't play his style

#162 nawein

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:20 PM

 
Not true.   We've just gotten used to his lazy floating. Early on he was a solid more of a solid two-way forward.  He's better than average at D when he wants to be.  He used to be on the second PK unit with Cleary. 
 
 
From 2005, and a reminder how he got his nickname:
 
 

http://articles.chic...an-franzen-mule

 
tireless work ethic?  Goes over the top of you?  I kind of remember a guy who would play like that, but haven't seen him in several years.   Franzen never goes around leveling guys, but he used to go to the hard areas of the ice.
 
Yzerman dubbed Franzen "The Mule" because of he was big, strong, and worked really hard.  Not because he was an unremarkable player with a good wrist shot. 
 
Several people have mentioned how we need big strong physical forwards to contend with teams like Boston.  What's sad is we already have one, he just doesn't play like it anymore. 


I was going to bring thia up earlier but couldn't find an article to quote from. This is why I am trying to stop calling him Mule and go back to Franzen. Sometimes it slips though.

#163 lomekian

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:35 PM

Where have you been?  This isn't exactly a new thing.  Franzen has had horrible playoff stats since 2010.  This isn't like oh, we lost in the first round and Franzen is the only reason.  I also don't get the constant use of "consistent" when applied to Franzen.    

 

Datsyuk and Zetterberg are both outstanding defensively, but would you see them tell the media they aren't responsible for scoring goals?  What he's trying to do is make excuses for his failure.   Hey, don't look at me, I'm not the goal scoring guy. I'm the defensive forward. Hey, Boston is just good, whattya do.  Not on me.  I'm not a goal scorer. What a crock of s***.  He would have earned a whole lot more respect if he had said, hey, I didn't get the job done.  I'm a veteran on this team and I need to lead and contribute and I didn't do that.  It just kind of summed up all that is wrong with Franzen.  

 

I know. And I've been mildly disagreeing for that whole time. But he's the go to guy for criticism regardless of whether its deserved or not. Despite being in an inconvenient time zone I catch maybe 2/3 of the wings games every year and have done for as long as its been technically possible. 

 

I just don't see things the same way you do. People comparing him with Datsyuk and Zetterberg is pointless. They are superstars and the captains of their respective countries and two of the best two-way players of the last 15 years. And they earn almost twice his cap hit accordingly. Franzen acknowledged he had chances and missed them. As for his mindset, he's always been like that. The guy has confidence issues that undermine his talent and has done since a teen in Sweden. 

 

I think what frustrates me is that the judge, jury and executioner are all out in force, despite the guy basically being the same as he always been, except that 1 amazing playoff series. He's scoring points at almost the same rate  (which is what i meant by consistent - ie career wise), despite the team not being as good and despite his injury issues. But yet the last two years its been throw him under the bus time.

 

And its all about perceived work ethic. I know Ice-hockey is something of a blue collar game, but people either suggest replacing him with inflated FA signings, totally untried kids, or even more overpaid high energy guys with considerably less ability. 

 

I'm not saying he's what we ideally need, or even that i love him as a player. Simply that paying him 20m + to go away while he's still producing at a reasonable rate is pretty stupid if you have no replacement in place. And that for all his faults, he's still a decent player.


 

Not true.   We've just gotten used to his lazy floating. Early on he was a solid more of a solid two-way forward.  He's better than average at D when he wants to be.  He used to be on the second PK unit with Cleary. 

 

 

From 2005, and a reminder how he got his nickname:

 

 

http://articles.chic...an-franzen-mule

 

tireless work ethic?  Goes over the top of you?  I kind of remember a guy who would play like that, but haven't seen him in several years.   Franzen never goes around leveling guys, but he used to go to the hard areas of the ice.

 

Yzerman dubbed Franzen "The Mule" because of he was big, strong, and worked really hard.  Not because he was an unremarkable player with a good wrist shot. 

 

Several people have mentioned how we need big strong physical forwards to contend with teams like Boston.  What's sad is we already have one, he just doesn't play like it anymore. 

 

he was only really like that until he started scoring though. I think he had one year of being a workhorse & scoring goals. Then he started becoming a bit more of an outside player, particularly after he bust his knee and got bashed on the head a few times. He's not the player he briefly threatened to be, but still puts up points at almost the same rate, on a worse team.


I think it's a Babcock-Franzen thing. I could see him having success with a new coach. I see a lot of our guys being more productive with another coach but I still think he's a good coach just some players can't play his style

Some truth in this. A lot of players who have left in recent years have subsequently put up more points on worse teams. partly because the onus on defensive responsibility isn't as great everywhere. Fil always played too much d-first as well.



#164 Richdg

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:43 PM

There are many points and counter points being brought up. But let's go deeper and more in depth.

1. Franzen is a good deal at a 4 mil cap hit. Is that true? What other players have cap hits between 3.75 and 4.25 million? in no order: Hornqvist, van Reimsdyk, Voracek, Callahan, Dubinsky, Oshie, Stewart, Ladd, pavelski, Simmons, Bickell, Duchene, steen, and many others. Of the names listed, how many would you take straight up for franzen? All of them.

2. he plays good D. LOL Don't even know where to start with that one. he is terrible.

3. he can be a decent 3rd liner. Really? 4 million for a 3rd line guy? If he is on the 3rd, then who do we demote? Sheahan? Jurco? tatar? That's is our 3rd line. We need 1 or 2 top 6 guys with size and grit. If that isn't Franzen, then he has no home on this team.

4. For his career Franzen averages 26 goals per 82 regular season games. But he doesn't play 82 games per year. he averages 66 games per non lockout year. taking his goal per game average times 66 games is only 21 goals per year. yes those are averages, some years are better and some are worse. But that is what we are paying 4 million per season for. That isn't very much production for the money.



#165 FedorovMan91

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 10:49 PM

After losing to the pens, we had a chance to decide between Franzen and Hossa. I remember people favorite Franzen over Hossa based on playoff performance. Upon that moment, Franzen was known as the playoff beast, especially during the run to the Stanley Cup in 2008. That is why people did not care of his regular season performance even with 4 mil cap hit. For last 3 years, however, Franzen has underperformed both in regular season and playoffs. That is why people criticize his contract. We do not expect him to perform like Pavel or Henrik. But he should score some BIG goals at the RIGHT time. He is very inconsistent without a doubt and he is aging. Without dealing Franzen and old guys, I do not see this team being closer to cup contenders.  


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#166 marcaractac

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 10:53 PM

There are many points and counter points being brought up. But let's go deeper and more in depth.

1. Franzen is a good deal at a 4 mil cap hit. Is that true? What other players have cap hits between 3.75 and 4.25 million? in no order: Hornqvist, van Reimsdyk, Voracek, Callahan, Dubinsky, Oshie, Stewart, Ladd, pavelski, Simmons, Bickell, Duchene, steen, and many others. Of the names listed, how many would you take straight up for franzen? All of them.

2. he plays good D. LOL Don't even know where to start with that one. he is terrible.

3. he can be a decent 3rd liner. Really? 4 million for a 3rd line guy? If he is on the 3rd, then who do we demote? Sheahan? Jurco? tatar? That's is our 3rd line. We need 1 or 2 top 6 guys with size and grit. If that isn't Franzen, then he has no home on this team.

4. For his career Franzen averages 26 goals per 82 regular season games. But he doesn't play 82 games per year. he averages 66 games per non lockout year. taking his goal per game average times 66 games is only 21 goals per year. yes those are averages, some years are better and some are worse. But that is what we are paying 4 million per season for. That isn't very much production for the money.

 

Not making an argument for or against Mule here, but most of those contracts are also RFA contracts. Every one of those players next contract will be much bigger. 



#167 joesuffP

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 12:04 AM

Franzen is counted on heavily to produce for us. Especially with the huge amount of injuries that happen every year. If Franzen was in Hossa's shoes playing on a stacked top 6 with a great defense his numbers would be close to Hossa's.

 

The numbers for our whole team suck because we have nobody that can stay healthy on a team with some glaring weaknesses. If we had a team like 08 I bet Franzen's numbers would shoot back up. This team is built with thrown away pieces and slapped together with no thought other than Babcock arranging this mess in lines that could make sense. 

 

To me it appears like Holland has been buying time these last few years and I really hope he has a plan because the future looks ugly


Edited by joesuffP, 28 April 2014 - 12:05 AM.


#168 nawein

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 12:34 AM

Franzen's point production per cap hit isn't terrible really, as the supporters are arguing. You guys are right, it's not that bad. BUT, anyone can put up points when playing with Datsyuk.

Look at Abdelkaders numbers. Everyone here agrees that he has no business on the first line with Pav, but he is and because of it his point production has increased. Last year halfway through he got put there and started scoring. This year he put up career highs in goals and assists, playing with Pav whenever he was healthy. My point is playing with Datsyuk the majority of the time nets you probably 10-15 points more than you would get if you weren't with him. Take Pav away and Franzen's 40-45 point guy.

Also before you all tell me that this year he put up decent numbers when Datsyuk was hurt, he benefited from Nyquist's insane run and there's no denying that.

Franzen is a good third liner and third liners shouldn't make the 4th most money out of forwards and 6th most on the team. Or if you want to look at cap hits slide him down two spots for both. Either way, he makes too much money for the player that he is and he's consistently put in an inappropriate role. He's not going to get any better, time to move him.

#169 lomekian

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 06:25 AM

There are many points and counter points being brought up. But let's go deeper and more in depth.

1. Franzen is a good deal at a 4 mil cap hit. Is that true? What other players have cap hits between 3.75 and 4.25 million? in no order: Hornqvist, van Reimsdyk, Voracek, Callahan, Dubinsky, Oshie, Stewart, Ladd, pavelski, Simmons, Bickell, Duchene, steen, and many others. Of the names listed, how many would you take straight up for franzen? All of them.

2. he plays good D. LOL Don't even know where to start with that one. he is terrible.

3. he can be a decent 3rd liner. Really? 4 million for a 3rd line guy? If he is on the 3rd, then who do we demote? Sheahan? Jurco? tatar? That's is our 3rd line. We need 1 or 2 top 6 guys with size and grit. If that isn't Franzen, then he has no home on this team.

4. For his career Franzen averages 26 goals per 82 regular season games. But he doesn't play 82 games per year. he averages 66 games per non lockout year. taking his goal per game average times 66 games is only 21 goals per year. yes those are averages, some years are better and some are worse. But that is what we are paying 4 million per season for. That isn't very much production for the money.

1. How many will have cap hits of that size after this season? Maybe half....some have big raises kicking in next year, a couple are UFAs. Some are great deals, and some are towards the end of front loaded deals signed when they were unproven youngsters. It would be just as easy to find higher contract players you wouldn't swap him for. No-one is saying he's a bargain. At present he is fair value that will likely diminish in a couple of years.  Also most of those players you have to give up assets to get. Franzen we have to pay 20m to lose......

 

2. His takeways are always better than his giveaways. Even in his crap recent playoffs. He's never been a minus player in the reg season, even as the team has declined. His only bad playoffs in that respect was last year. The coach trusts him defensively. So he's not D,Z or similar. Sure, but he's better in his own zone than many of the guys you mentioned.

 

3. This is a fair enough point, but I was thinking of that as his future career trajectory as he gets passed by other younger talent. If we were having the same conversation 2 years from now, when there was someone definitely ready to take his spot, I'd be a lot more comfortable with letting him go. All we have at the moment is promise. At present he's a second liner on a team that desperately needs a top line goals-scorer or power forward. Hopefully no longer having $15m tied up in Quincey, Sammy, Bert, Cleary and Tootoo will help. 

 

4. That average of games played does include the season he blew out his knee in 09/10, which is a little unkind. Other than that, this is the first season he's missed more than a handful of games. This is the first non-lockout season apart from the one he missed mostly through injury that he hasn't scored 28 goals or more and 55 points or more since we won the cup. His worst season since the cup still had a 0.72 PPG scoring rate (worse than this season). Its not amazing production for the money, but if there was an FA with those numbers at that price, we'd be wiling to consider it. 

 

In ideal world we could trade him for someone better. This isn't going to happen, and we don;t yet have anyone who looks likely to take his place.



#170 lomekian

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 06:31 AM

After losing to the pens, we had a chance to decide between Franzen and Hossa. I remember people favorite Franzen over Hossa based on playoff performance. Upon that moment, Franzen was known as the playoff beast, especially during the run to the Stanley Cup in 2008. That is why people did not care of his regular season performance even with 4 mil cap hit. For last 3 years, however, Franzen has underperformed both in regular season and playoffs. That is why people criticize his contract. We do not expect him to perform like Pavel or Henrik. But he should score some BIG goals at the RIGHT time. He is very inconsistent without a doubt and he is aging. Without dealing Franzen and old guys, I do not see this team being closer to cup contenders.  

 

Ah....the old Hossa comparison. I think everyone accepts that the GM screwed the pooch on that one, especially as, with a little imagination and forethought, he could have had both. 

 

For someone whose regular season performance people didn't care about, his reg season points and +/- figures stack up pretty well. He is inconsistent, with seemingly no pattern to his hot streaks, I get that its frustrating. But he's a complimentary player who gets paid accordingly, who takes more flack than he deserves due to other worse management decisions elsewhere. 

 

If Holland doesn't re-sign the utterly past it crew, spunk a first and too much salary on Quincey, and had been braver in 09, we'd have hossa on the 1st line, a better D and no-one would be complaining about Franzen's streaky but ultimately decent output.



#171 lomekian

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 06:38 AM

Franzen's point production per cap hit isn't terrible really, as the supporters are arguing. You guys are right, it's not that bad. BUT, anyone can put up points when playing with Datsyuk.

Look at Abdelkaders numbers. Everyone here agrees that he has no business on the first line with Pav, but he is and because of it his point production has increased. Last year halfway through he got put there and started scoring. This year he put up career highs in goals and assists, playing with Pav whenever he was healthy. My point is playing with Datsyuk the majority of the time nets you probably 10-15 points more than you would get if you weren't with him. Take Pav away and Franzen's 40-45 point guy.

Also before you all tell me that this year he put up decent numbers when Datsyuk was hurt, he benefited from Nyquist's insane run and there's no denying that.

Franzen is a good third liner and third liners shouldn't make the 4th most money out of forwards and 6th most on the team. Or if you want to look at cap hits slide him down two spots for both. Either way, he makes too much money for the player that he is and he's consistently put in an inappropriate role. He's not going to get any better, time to move him.

 

Franzen's point scoring ratio is much better when NOT paired with Dats. Always has been. Plays far better with Z or even Fil when he was here. Dats and Franzen has never been nearly as effective as the coach thinks.

 

BTW. I don't see Abby putting up 0.75 PPG. 

 

As for Money.....His cap hit is lower than D, Z, Alfie, Weiss and if he re-signs, Legwand. And if not legwand another FA worth pursuing may demand more. So he's our 6th best paid forward in real terms.

 

Ok in salary terms THIS YEAR he's our 4th highest, but that is just cap manipulation, and in the scheme of things is meaningless if you are discussing buyouts.



#172 GoalieManPat

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 06:41 AM

 
2. His takeways are always better than his giveaways. Even in his crap recent playoffs. He's never been a minus player in the reg season, even as the team has declined. His only bad playoffs in that respect was last year. The coach trusts him defensively. So he's not D,Z or similar. Sure, but he's better in his own zone than many of the guys you mentioned.

+/- is a joke stat. Lidstrom proved that by winning the Norris as a minus player. Franzen is not good defensively. Hes not quick, he doesnt use his size to clear, he doesnt actively seek to block shots, and hes not intense as he plays timid for a guy with his size and reach. All of those are traits of good defenders and he lacks them all.

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#173 dirtydangles

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 07:36 AM

Franzen had a decent hit on Lucic in open ice during the last game I think. That was about the only thing to write home about.


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#174 Richdg

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 08:31 AM

Some are making fake arguments. I don't care what Franzen's cap hit is. The question is can he play/produce? Would Cleary be a better player if we only paid him half a million per year? Would datsyuk be a worse player if we only paid him 1 million per year? Of course not. What a player gets paid has nothing to do with how a player currently plays. The big money contracts are awarded in all sports on things you have already done. When Franzen was signed 4 years ago-or was it 5?, the contract was an attempt by the classy Red Wings to cheat the system. Yes I said cheat the system. of course everyone was doing it, but trying to get around the rules is cheating. Back to the point. At that time Franzen had just had his career year and an awesome playoff run. The thought process was a good one. Sign a top performer to a long term deal that benefits the team. makes sense. Since then Franzen has not benefited the team. Now he is not only not benefiting the team, he has become a negative. Every year he has to be coddled and have his hand held because his feelings get hurt or whatever it is.

Now we have 1 chance to get out from under this giant rock that is weighing us down. he is not a leader, he is a bad influence on the young players-lack of effort/drive/focus, and doesn't or can't do what we need him to do. He isn't a top 6 power forward and that is the role we need him to perform. It is time to part company. Buy him out and get rid of the cap hit worries.



#175 The Secret

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 09:22 AM

HATE!!!

 

Franzen makes this so easy! All that talent but no heart... teases for stretches then let's us down when we need him most. Helm farts more heart and desire then Franzen will ever be able to possess and maintain.

 

I hope he gets traded for someone that cares when it matters... and I will never ever forget that Franzen was signed over Hossa!!!



#176 Nightfall

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 10:38 AM

 

Ah....the old Hossa comparison. I think everyone accepts that the GM screwed the pooch on that one, especially as, with a little imagination and forethought, he could have had both. 

 

Is that true?  I was under the impression that it was either Franzen or Hossa, and if they chose Hossa they would have had to not resign Darren Helm and maybe another player.  With the salary cap, I don't think they could have made it work without sacrificing a couple players from their core.


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#177 lomekian

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 11:20 AM

Some are making fake arguments. I don't care what Franzen's cap hit is. The question is can he play/produce? Would Cleary be a better player if we only paid him half a million per year? Would datsyuk be a worse player if we only paid him 1 million per year? Of course not. What a player gets paid has nothing to do with how a player currently plays. The big money contracts are awarded in all sports on things you have already done. When Franzen was signed 4 years ago-or was it 5?, the contract was an attempt by the classy Red Wings to cheat the system. Yes I said cheat the system. of course everyone was doing it, but trying to get around the rules is cheating. Back to the point. At that time Franzen had just had his career year and an awesome playoff run. The thought process was a good one. Sign a top performer to a long term deal that benefits the team. makes sense. Since then Franzen has not benefited the team. Now he is not only not benefiting the team, he has become a negative. Every year he has to be coddled and have his hand held because his feelings get hurt or whatever it is.

Now we have 1 chance to get out from under this giant rock that is weighing us down. he is not a leader, he is a bad influence on the young players-lack of effort/drive/focus, and doesn't or can't do what we need him to do. He isn't a top 6 power forward and that is the role we need him to perform. It is time to part company. Buy him out and get rid of the cap hit worries.

 

No work ethic.

Bad influence on the kids.

Doesn't care.

 

Lots of empty statements based on prejudice rather than any evidence. We, as fans, don;t have the first idea what he is like apart from when he's on the ice. He may be a cowardly selfish idiot. He may be a model professional who contributes behind the scenes. Chances are, like most people, he's a decent pro with strong enough desire to make him a decent contributor, but not enough to maximise what he's capable of.

Fact is, we don't know. 

 

Discussions about value are all fair. Character assassination of people we have never had any personal contact with and have never read anything negative about bar a dislike for journalists (and I've met a few sports journos...most were parasites) is stupid and pointless.

 

As for him not performing the role we want him to...this is partially correct. he does sometimes, he doesn't other times. He gets paid like a top 4 or 5 forward, plays like a 5-7 most of the time (despite the odd productive burst that elevates him beyond that level), and we all expect him to play like a no 3 forward because he has at times shown he is capable.

 

Rather than just junking the guy at massive expense for not fulfilling the role we want him to, surely its better to ask is there a role that he can still provide good value filling? I'd say as a genuine 5th or 6th forward, he's fine.



#178 Internet.Unknown

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 11:30 AM

Franzen is counted on heavily to produce for us. Especially with the huge amount of injuries that happen every year. If Franzen was in Hossa's shoes playing on a stacked top 6 with a great defense his numbers would be close to Hossa's.

 

The numbers for our whole team suck because we have nobody that can stay healthy on a team with some glaring weaknesses. If we had a team like 08 I bet Franzen's numbers would shoot back up. This team is built with thrown away pieces and slapped together with no thought other than Babcock arranging this mess in lines that could make sense. 

 

To me it appears like Holland has been buying time these last few years and I really hope he has a plan because the future looks ugly

 

His plan was Suter and Parise. Oops.



#179 lomekian

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 11:30 AM

 

Is that true?  I was under the impression that it was either Franzen or Hossa, and if they chose Hossa they would have had to not resign Darren Helm and maybe another player.  With the salary cap, I don't think they could have made it work without sacrificing a couple players from their core.

 

It wouldn't have been easy...but i would have been workable if the GM thought it was worth trading some lesser value pieces to make it happen - it would have taken longer term thinking, but in hindsight, it was doable. I'm not sure I realised that at the time of course!



#180 Nightfall

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 11:40 AM

 

It wouldn't have been easy...but i would have been workable if the GM thought it was worth trading some lesser value pieces to make it happen - it would have taken longer term thinking, but in hindsight, it was doable. I'm not sure I realised that at the time of course!

 

It would have been nice to have capgeek back then to put everything in and test that theory.  According to all the news outlets, it didn't seem possible.  I know I wasn't ready to ditch a couple key pieces in order to sign both Hossa and Franzen. 


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