What is more important?

[Richdg 267]

Most seem to think D is the more important way to go. So the next question is, what are you willing to give up to get the D we need? We have 4 NHL caliber Dmen and 2 holes. DK needs a true top guy to work with him-thus becoming our top pair, that allows Kronwall and E to be the second pair, then Smith and someother guy to be the third pair. So at what price? A Greene or Fayne signing in UFA works to fix the third pair. Both are good sized RHed defensive Dmen that would allow Smith to roam more. It is the top pair guy that we need that will have to be a trade.

I think we're close defensively. Brendan Smith took a huge step forward this past series playing with Kronwall. The Bruins baited him a lot and other than that incident with Chara, he kept his emotions in check and played hockey. Loved that play he made taking Marchand to the outside and then running him into the cage. Kronwall, Smith, Ericcson and DeKeyser is a workable top four. So..out of a pool of Almquist, Sproul, Marchenko, Oulett, Jensen and (someday )Nedomlel, you need a couple of guys to step up to form that third pairing. I like what Quincey has done over the second half of the season and the playoffs...he's not a huge hitter, but he understands positioning and leverage around the cage...but I think he's going to be too expensive to re-sign.

No Q is not worth it. He is not good or even average. At 4+ million per year he is also getting expensive.

[Buppy 1,720]

Boston has how many injuries on defense? Their defense has less games played in playoffs then most. Chicago has Keith and seabrooke then who?

I'm mostly getting at the star power. Chicago atop six consist of toews Kane hossa and sharpe plus two complimentary guys. Pittsburgh is same way. Boston id say doesn't have the star power as much up front but more balanced and good players top to bottom.

You mean doughty who is considered an offensive defenseman? And letang?

Star power is not a good way to judge. Guys like Mitchell, Seidenberg, Scuderi, Orpik, Boychuk, Hjalmarsson might not be stars, but they're effective.

Of the past 8 Cup winners:

Average ranking in playoff scoring: 3.625

Average ranking in playoff defense: 2.875

Average regular season scoring: 7.375

Average regular season defense: 7

All 8 finished 6th or higher in playoff scoring (1 1st, 4 of 8 in the top 3)

All 8 finished 5th or higher in playoff defense (3 finished 1st, 2 more 3rd)

7 of 8 finished 8th or higher in regular season scoring (4 of 8 finished 2nd or 3rd)

6 of 8 finished 7th or higher in regular season defense (4 of 8 finished 1st or 2nd)

Only twice has a team won the Cup while finishing in the bottom half of the league in regular season defense

Only once has a team won the Cup while finishing in the bottom half of the league in regular season scoring

The numbers for the last 8 Cup runners-up are not too far off from that.

The conclusion is evident. Winning a Cup, or even making the Finals, is pretty highly unlikely unless you're above average at both ends.

[evilmrt 636]

This is a Red Wings forum. Obviously the answer is a rock solid defense and when that is accomplished, worry about offense. I don't know why Ken Holland can't figure that out. Did he not watch any games the last twenty years?

[Dominator2005 558]

How about getting bigger and tougher?!

[nawein 324]

How about getting bigger and tougher?!

Sometimes I honestly think if we had a poll that went something along the lines of

"Which would you prefer?

A team of John Scott's or

A team of Tomas Tatar's"

The team of Scott's would win by a landslide just because "We need moar big. We need moar tough. We need moar goals and moar goals come from moar big and tough."

[Richdg 267]

No one is debating that great teams are great at scoring and at defense. We are not a great team, nor are we great at O or at D. The question is, which do we fix first, and at what price?

[Buppy 1,720]

No one is debating that great teams are great at scoring and at defense. We are not a great team, nor are we great at O or at D. The question is, which do we fix first, and at what price?

Actually the question was, "What is more important". My answer to that being, "Neither".

As to your follow-up, the obvious answer is we try to fix both. But opportunities are limited, so you take what you can get. You try to avoid weakening one for the other, but we have solid depth at both forward and defense, so we can afford either if a good opportunity arises. Given our specific situation, I think we need more immediate help on defense, but in the not too distant future we'll need forwards. I think it's a little too soon to get aggressive.

Keep most of the prospects and kids, though giving up a couple wouldn't kill us. Of the vets, only Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Kronwall have significant certain trade value, and none would bring enough immediate return to offset their loss. I doubt any would bring even enough future return to make it worth it either. Franzen, Weiss, and Helm might have value, depending on how their health and performance holds up next year. Either way, I don't think there's much chance at any major moves right now. Maybe at the deadline next year, or more likely at the 2015 draft. Of course by then, depending on how the kids are looking, we might not need any moves.

[kipwinger 8,521]

Ask the predators how this worked for them...

I think you need to put up goals and have a decent D - and a good goalie to make saves.

While you're at it, ask the Capitals how great forwards and average defense works out. If you want to go to extremes then any position is absurd.

I voted for defense first, but the truth is, there's no exact recipe for success. I would, however, venture to guess that every Cup winner in recent memory was pretty good at both (even L.A.'s offense picked it up in the playoffs).

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Man just read a few other forums from eliminated teams, if people here think we are overreacting holy cow the Blues fans are absolutely furious and losing it some are even putting guys like Backes on the table.

Having said that if Army panicks and Shattenkirk will be made available Holland has to be in on this deal I'd offer Tatar + Almquist + 2nd rounder. The guy is young and would fix our defense immedeiately.

[Guest DeGraa55]

Man just read a few other forums from eliminated teams, if people here think we are overreacting holy cow the Blues fans are absolutely furious and losing it some are even putting guys like Backes on the table.

Having said that if Army panicks and Shattenkirk will be made available Holland has to be in on this deal I'd offer Tatar + Almquist + 2nd rounder. The guy is young and would fix our defense immedeiately.

Blues did have one if the best teams though. But their collapses began with what ten games Togo in season?

Whereas us? We were going to far no surprise at all we lost.

[nawein 324]

Man just read a few other forums from eliminated teams, if people here think we are overreacting holy cow the Blues fans are absolutely furious and losing it some are even putting guys like Backes on the table.

Having said that if Army panicks and Shattenkirk will be made available Holland has to be in on this deal I'd offer Tatar + Almquist + 2nd rounder. The guy is young and would fix our defense immedeiately.

Offering Tatar, Almquist and a 2nd for Shattenkirk would almost ensure that St Louis never answers a phone call from you again. I agree with the sentiment though, Shattenkirk would make us a much better team.

[themcityblues 249]

Look at the 08 cup winning team. Elite defense and average forwards. Rafalski + Lidstrom + Kronwall + Stuart + Chris Chelios won that cup.

[Guest DeGraa55]

Offering Tatar, Almquist and a 2nd for Shattenkirk would almost ensure that St Louis never answers a phone call from you again. I agree with the sentiment though, Shattenkirk would make us a much better team.

Lol I love the offseason! These trades I've seen flying around....priceless.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Man just read a few other forums from eliminated teams, if people here think we are overreacting holy cow the Blues fans are absolutely furious and losing it some are even putting guys like Backes on the table.

Having said that if Army panicks and Shattenkirk will be made available Holland has to be in on this deal I'd offer Tatar + Almquist + 2nd rounder. The guy is young and would fix our defense immedeiately.

Offering Tatar, Almquist and a 2nd for Shattenkirk would almost ensure that St Louis never answers a phone call from you again. I agree with the sentiment though, Shattenkirk would make us a much better team.

Well just as a starting point but I really don't believe they would be that stupid. Their defense is awesome and cheap goaltending help in form of Allen is on the way. I guess their biggest need is goalscoring

[kipwinger 8,521]

Well just as a starting point but I really don't believe they would be that stupid. Their defense is awesome and cheap goaltending help in form of Allen is on the way. I guess their biggest need is goalscoring

St. Louis was sixth in the league in goals per games. Tarasenko, Oshie, Steen, Backes, Schwartz, all had more than 20 goals per. They had so much scoring they traded Chris Stewart (15 goals this year and former 30 goal scorer) away without batting an eye.

We had one guy score more than 20, and you're proposing we trade the only other guy who was close.

They aren't going to trade one of the best young defensemen in the league for Tatar and scrubs. They don't need his offense. We, on the other hand, do need it.

Edited April 30, 2014 by kipwinger