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Wings will buy out Tootoo, not Franzen.


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#81 marcaractac

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 08:08 PM

Ah yes....factual information! How dare some one use statistical analysis to counter gut feeling, emotional reactions and fan logic of visible effort = more contribution. People have even wanted Tootoo ahead of him because he hits and fights....and does almost nothing else. Sure, a skilled guy who works his ass off is better than one that doesn't, but a skilled guy with variable effort levels is often better than a no-skill guy that tries as hard as he can......

 

There have definitely been stretches where Franzen hasn't been giving all of his effort. Not gonna stick up for him for that ever. The thing is, even when he is working his ass off but not scoring, he is still accused of floating. He has become that much of a whipping boy that not scoring automatically means he is not trying. I saw a hard working Franzen in the playoffs. He wasn't driving the net as much as he should have, but he was still skating. If he works, I have no issue with him being here. Because even if he isn't scoring, he is responsible in his own end. It is just a matter of having enough scoring depth that the team doesn't absolutely depend on him going into beast mode to win. If the team has that depth, his contract does not hinder the team one bit. Also, his dry spell this season was not nearly as bad as it was the season before last. IF he can avoid a head injury this coming season, I have no doubt he can be a very effective player for the team. It is just a matter of managing expectations of him. 

 

Even when Datsyuk came back from a concussion, he was hesitant to get into the dirty areas for a nice while. As someone who has had my bell rung when I was a teen, I can't really fault someone for not getting too involved with the rough stuff. Especially in a professional sport at that level. I still think next season when he is good and healthy again, the coaching staff should park him in front of the net on the PP. 


Edited by marcaractac, 03 May 2014 - 08:58 PM.


#82 gcom007

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 12:41 AM

As fun as the idea sounded after a dismal final stretch of the season and playoffs, this really shouldn't be surprising. But just because we're not buying him out doesn't mean that he'll stay here. I still think there's a possibility that he could get traded. Despite how frustrating he's been here, he's had enough hot streaks in the past that some teams will still be interested. And realistically speaking, his cap hit isn't that bad in this day and age. Plus, some guys have left Detroit and found a way to play better in a different environment; someone could trade for him in hopes of that.

 

Obviously, we wouldn't get a great return, as anyone going for him is going to be gambling and accepting the fact that he's got a lot of years left on that deal. But getting something for him is better than handing him however many millions of dollars Illitch would have to if we bought him out.

 

Maybe I'm way off, but we live in a world where the Tigers found a way to trade Prince Fielder. So in this crazy, upside-down world we live in, you'd have to think that there's at least some likelihood that the Wings could find a team willing to trade for Franzen. And to be honest, if you've read this far, I'm underselling the idea because I know there are people here who have a completely irrational yet rational hate for him at this point. I definitely think there are teams that would still trade for Franzen. The bigger question is more likely whether Holland will agree to a deal that has the potential to be lopsided should Franzen find a way to get his game going again.


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#83 _SP_

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 01:10 AM

Here's a novel thought: Why not buyout both?  An ordinary buyout of Tootoo costs the team $1.9M, but spread over two seasons I believe, and it carries a cap hit of just $600K for this upcoming season.



#84 PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 01:50 AM

Here's a novel thought: Why not buyout both?  An ordinary buyout of Tootoo costs the team $1.9M, but spread over two seasons I believe, and it carries a cap hit of just $600K for this upcoming season.

They are not buying out Franzen because they believe he's a worthy asset not because they're trying to limit buyouts.



#85 Playmaker

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 06:36 AM

 

There have definitely been stretches where Franzen hasn't been giving all of his effort. Not gonna stick up for him for that ever. The thing is, even when he is working his ass off but not scoring, he is still accused of floating. He has become that much of a whipping boy that not scoring automatically means he is not trying. I saw a hard working Franzen in the playoffs. He wasn't driving the net as much as he should have, but he was still skating. If he works, I have no issue with him being here. Because even if he isn't scoring, he is responsible in his own end. It is just a matter of having enough scoring depth that the team doesn't absolutely depend on him going into beast mode to win. If the team has that depth, his contract does not hinder the team one bit. Also, his dry spell this season was not nearly as bad as it was the season before last. IF he can avoid a head injury this coming season, I have no doubt he can be a very effective player for the team. It is just a matter of managing expectations of him. 

 

Even when Datsyuk came back from a concussion, he was hesitant to get into the dirty areas for a nice while. As someone who has had my bell rung when I was a teen, I can't really fault someone for not getting too involved with the rough stuff. Especially in a professional sport at that level. I still think next season when he is good and healthy again, the coaching staff should park him in front of the net on the PP. 

But this is nothing new for Franzen.  I've been holding out hope for several seasons now, making excuses for him and defending him, and ever year its lather, rinse, repeat.  

 

Is it a concussion or anxiety/mental illness or laziness, I really don't know.  But watching him out on the ice, he looks like he's just out of gas.  He looks so tired and lethargic, the way he skates, the way he shoots the puck, the way he hits.  There just seems to be no energy behind anything he does.   What frustrates me the most is when he gets knocked down or falls down.  While other players pop back up in an instant, it takes Franzen forever to get back to his feet, and even longer to get back into the play.  I find myself screaming at the TV.

 

I don't think that it's criticism for when he's not scoring goals.  No one gives Helm s*** when he doesn't score.  Because he's noticeable and is involved in the play and plays hard every shift.  Datsyuk and Zetterberg seem to have pointless or goalless streaks every year, but no one ever accuses them of being lazy or uninterested.

 

I agree 100% with what Babcock said about how Franzen handles the media.  Okay, we get it, you're shy and what not, but so is Datsyuk, so was Brad Stuart.  But you don't have to say idiotic things when you do talk.  Take some responsibility, act like you care, show an ounce of passion or something.  Stop with the "I'm not a goal scorer crap".  His attitude off the ice seems to reflect his play on the ice.  Fans would be much more apt to give Franzen the benefit of the doubt if he at least acted like he cared.



#86 LeftWinger

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 08:20 AM

We get it. You don't like franzen. But as has been pointed out previously hossa was offered a contract first and wanted to hold out for More money. Franzen was the backup plan.

Hossa was offered a contract with the thought that Holland was also going to pay Hudler $3.75M. So that is why Hossa didn't accept Hollands lowball offer to him. So Franzeb's $3.9M and the $3.75M he had set aside for Hudler was more than enough to keep Hossa here. Which as we seen with Hudler and now with Franzen, we would have been better off with Hossa.


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#87 Euro_Twins

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 09:19 AM

Hossa was offered a contract with the thought that Holland was also going to pay Hudler $3.75M. So that is why Hossa didn't accept Hollands lowball offer to him. So Franzeb's $3.9M and the $3.75M he had set aside for Hudler was more than enough to keep Hossa here. Which as we seen with Hudler and now with Franzen, we would have been better off with Hossa.



hindsight2.jpg

Now that you mentioned it I should have picked different lottery numbers last week. It made sense at the time hudler and Franzen had very good years.

Edited by Euro_Twins, 04 May 2014 - 09:20 AM.


#88 puckbags

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 11:49 AM

Some of you clearly are not understanding that buying Franzen out would be one of the worst decisions a GM could make when they can easily TRADE him for picks or something else, c'mon folks think here....  At $3.95 million a year, Franzen is a steal, and he can easily be traded for his average 25 goals / 50 points a year (.31 GPM / .61 pts PG).  His concussion messed him up this year, but 41 pts in 54 games is pretty good for his paygrade.

 

Do the math yourselves, go to capgeek and see what's available in UFA for $4 million.  See how easily he can be traded for that price tag.  Buyout talk is just plain retarded and shows a complete lack of understanding the mechanics of contracts and team building.

 

http://www.capgeek.com/ufa-finder/

 

I totally agree, as much as he drives me nuts sometimes, he has 180 goals in 9 seasons, one of those season was a shortened lockout, this season he missed a bunch of games, 09/10 he played 27 games which makes his 20 goal average somewhere in the 25-30 goal range.  Find guys who have scored 20-30 goals this year and you will realize like him or not his contract is pretty much gold in the salary cap era.   180 goals / 567 games = .31 goals per game x 82 = makes him a 26 goal scorer a year with a very very manageable contract. 


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#89 puckbags

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 11:59 AM

Hossa was offered a contract with the thought that Holland was also going to pay Hudler $3.75M. So that is why Hossa didn't accept Hollands lowball offer to him. So Franzeb's $3.9M and the $3.75M he had set aside for Hudler was more than enough to keep Hossa here. Which as we seen with Hudler and now with Franzen, we would have been better off with Hossa.

 

Why would we have better off with Hossa? Is it because of your blinded man love for him or brutal hatred for Franzen?  In the 5 seasons since Hossa went to Chicago he has scored 125 goals in 315 games , .39 goals/ game average @ 5.275 million a year.  In the same amount of time Franzen has 97 goals in 275 games, .35 goals per game average @ 3.9 million per year.  1.8 million per year difference for .04 more goals per game.  If I'm doing the math correctly it seems that on cold hard facts alone we are actually getting a bargain with the Mule over Hossa.  With that being said I hope we can trade Franzen, I still think the Canucks are a good trade partner for us.  They can stick Franzen with the Sedin sisters and I would be glad to see some kind of deal that involved Kesler coming back this way. 


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#90 LeftWinger

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 01:03 PM

hindsight2.jpg

Now that you mentioned it I should have picked different lottery numbers last week. It made sense at the time hudler and Franzen had very good years.

now that you mention it, it isn't hindsight for me. I hated it from day one, day two and today. I cursed both Hudler and Franzen up and down, left and right. I am not saying the numbers didn't make sense at the time to the brass, I am simply defending the position I have had since the day he signed. I am not trying to convince anyone that Franzen sucks,I have known that for years. I am just defending my position that I have always had. Holland chose Franzen and Hudler over paying Hossa more money. I knew it would be a mistake, never waivered from my position and now, it seems my position was correct. Holland should haven given Hossa the money and let Franzen and Hudler battle over what was left if the cap.


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#91 vladdy16

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 01:07 PM

Here's a novel thought: Why not buyout both?  An ordinary buyout of Tootoo costs the team $1.9M, but spread over two seasons I believe, and it carries a cap hit of just $600K for this upcoming season.

Because the Wings only have 1 buyout left.


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#92 Buppy

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 01:34 PM

...

Now that you mentioned it I should have picked different lottery numbers last week. It made sense at the time hudler and Franzen had very good years.

Hindsight really has nothing to do with it, he's just making things up. Even if there was a real offer for Hudler, the cap space wasn't there. 



#93 nawein

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 02:37 PM

Because the Wings only have 1 buyout left.


Wings have one compliance buyout left, unlimited regular buyouts. I believe he meant regular buyout for Tootoo.

#94 Bannedforlife

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 03:09 PM

 
Why would we have better off with Hossa? Is it because of your blinded man love for him or brutal hatred for Franzen?  In the 5 seasons since Hossa went to Chicago he has scored 125 goals in 315 games , .39 goals/ game average @ 5.275 million a year.  In the same amount of time Franzen has 97 goals in 275 games, .35 goals per game average @ 3.9 million per year.  1.8 million per year difference for .04 more goals per game.  If I'm doing the math correctly it seems that on cold hard facts alone we are actually getting a bargain with the Mule over Hossa.  With that being said I hope we can trade Franzen, I still think the Canucks are a good trade partner for us.  They can stick Franzen with the Sedin sisters and I would be glad to see some kind of deal that involved Kesler coming back this way. 

If you don't know that Hossa is a better hockey player and a better value than Franzen, then I really don't know what to tell you. Its not even close.

And to the guy that said that Hossa turned down the Wings offer because he wanted to test the market, thats not how it went down at all. Hossa wanted to sign here, and he was willing to do it for less than he ultimately signed with Chicago for. Holland wanted to sign Franzen first, and then he didn't have the cap space to sign Hossa because of Hudler's impending arbitration.

#95 Playmaker

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 04:13 PM

If you don't know that Hossa is a better hockey player and a better value than Franzen, then I really don't know what to tell you. Its not even close.

And to the guy that said that Hossa turned down the Wings offer because he wanted to test the market, thats not how it went down at all. Hossa wanted to sign here, and he was willing to do it for less than he ultimately signed with Chicago for. Holland wanted to sign Franzen first, and then he didn't have the cap space to sign Hossa because of Hudler's impending arbitration.

The reality is, we really don't know what went down or what does go down with contract negotiations.

 

From what I recall, from the very day that Hossa signed the one year deal with the Wings, Holland was very upfront about the fact it would be extremely difficult to keep him beyond 2009.  I'm not sure if he ever specifically said the Franzen would get preference over Hossa, but that was always the impression I got.  It is just how the Wings roll, and Franzen hadn't done anything at the time to give Holland any reason not to put him and his contract first, if that is how it went. I also don't remember Hossa coming out and saying he would take less pay to stay with the Wings.  From what I remember, his agent pretty much said just the opposite, that he'd take the one year deal and play for less money, but after that he expected to be paid.  But that's just based on my memory of events, not actual facts I can provide.


Edited by Playmaker, 04 May 2014 - 05:18 PM.


#96 Z and D for the C

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 04:57 PM

hindsight2.jpg

Now that you mentioned it I should have picked different lottery numbers last week. It made sense at the time hudler and Franzen had very good years.


It has nothing to do with hindsight. Hossa was the completely over the top correct choice over Franzen. Holland should have done everything he could have to sign Hossa and then worry about everyone else. I'm not a Holland basher, but it was a complete failure on his part and undoubtedly his biggest career mistake.

From what I remember, his agent pretty much said just the opposite, that he'd take the one year deal and play for less money, but after that he expected to be paid.


He was more interested in term length than salary number. He wanted a long term deal.

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#97 Euro_Twins

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 05:31 PM

It has nothing to do with hindsight. Hossa was the completely over the top correct choice over Franzen. Holland should have done everything he could have to sign Hossa and then worry about everyone else. I'm not a Holland basher, but it was a complete failure on his part and undoubtedly his biggest career mistake.

He was more interested in term length than salary number. He wanted a long term deal.


Sorry but in 2008/2009 mule was the better player. Like it or not. He was a beast back then. All this bitching and moaning about it every day is not going to change that that. It's not like we signed Rick do pietro or Scott Gomez or bryz, to giant deals. We signed a guy at the time who was worth every penny of the deal he got. Get over it, its the reality and it's not going to change. Some people act like two year olds. It's been 5 years.

#98 Son of a Wing

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 06:07 PM

now that you mention it, it isn't hindsight for me. I hated it from day one, day two and today. I cursed both Hudler and Franzen up and down, left and right. I am not saying the numbers didn't make sense at the time to the brass, I am simply defending the position I have had since the day he signed. I am not trying to convince anyone that Franzen sucks,I have known that for years. I am just defending my position that I have always had. Holland chose Franzen and Hudler over paying Hossa more money. I knew it would be a mistake, never waivered from my position and now, it seems my position was correct. Holland should haven given Hossa the money and let Franzen and Hudler battle over what was left if the cap.

 

Are you trying to convince us or yourself?? Cause I'm calling bull s***.

 

 

 

Cool! $4M for Franzen! That means we'll be getting a 1st, 2nd and a 3rd when Hudler signs elsewhere for his $4M!!! YEAH!!!!! 

Hossa & Franzen at any expense! Bye bye Huds, Flip & Sammy!

 

This is entirely possible! First thing, why would they trade Stuart, when he already took a huge discount to stay here? He could have gotten $5M EASILY from somehwere else. He is making very little money and is worth every penny of it! End of Story. We've talked about this plenty before, you have to trade Filppula for sure, that frees up $3M, that gives the Wings a little over $12M in cap space. Hossa cap hit is $6M, Franzen's is $3M. You lose Chelio's salary, trade Lebda for a pick (lose his salary,) lose Sammy's salary, lose Hudler's salary (plus get a 1st 2nd and 3rd after he signs for $4M somewhere.) That will give you plenty of money to bring up Ericsson, re-sign Leino, bring up Helm & Abdelkader and Howard 's salary is a wash of Conklin's.

If you don't think a player exchange of Flip, Huds, Sammy, Chelios, Lebda & Conklin for (re-siging long term) Hossa & Franzen and Leino, Helm, Abdelkader, Ericsson & Howard, you are crazy! In this cap world, the kids are going to have to be here soon (or risk losing them like Quincey) so if you do or dont win all the marbles this season, you may as well do it next year. Bring the kids up with a core of Dats, Zetts, Homer, Cleary, Hossa & Franzen up front? Oh MY! Even without Flip and Huds, those are still two VERY lethal lines! Follow those up with Abdelkader/Helm/Leino and then Maltby/Draper/Kopecky? You pretty much don't lose a step!

Zetts/Dats/Homer
Hossa/Franz/Cleary
Leino/Helm/Abdelkader
Kopecky/Draper/Maltby
Downey (or some other surprise in training camp)

Lids/Rafi
Kron/Stu
Ericsson/Meech
Lilja (if healthy!)

Osgood/Howard

It all fits, its all fine. Lest you forget the 1st, 2nd & 3rd pick for Hudler, the 3rd for Filppula and the late rounder for Lebda! Then make Chelios your NEW defensive coach and call it a day!

heck, if you don''t quite fell Abdelkader is ready (he still has GRR options) sign Weight for $500,000 or so (although he'd probably want $1M) and those two salaries would wash (although Abby makes more than $500,000 so that would even provide you with a few extra dollars.)


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#99 Z and D for the C

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 06:28 PM

Sorry but in 2008/2009 mule was the better player.


No way, not even close. Even back then, when Franzen was almost as good a goal scorer Hossa, Hossa was still a better goalscorer, ten times the playmaker, a beast two way forward (which Franzen is NOT by any metric), way faster, much better defense, cooler last name, a workhorse and all the intangibles. Franzen at his best might be a better player than Hossa at his worst, and I'm not even sure of that.

The only thing that lends any substance to Franzen being better than Hossa is a single playoff run when Franzen outscored Hossa. But that is not taking into account all the things that Hossa provides that Franzen doesn't.

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#100 _SP_

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 08:17 PM

Here's a novel thought: Why not buyout both?  An ordinary buyout of Tootoo costs the team $1.9M, but spread over two seasons I believe, and it carries a cap hit of just $600K for this upcoming season.

 

 

They are not buying out Franzen because they believe he's a worthy asset not because they're trying to limit buyouts.

 

Well that's a shame.

Because the Wings only have 1 buyout left.

 

 

Nah, teams were given 2 compliance buyouts that wouldn't carry a cap hit, but you can buyout any player at any time with a cap hit. 

 

Wings have one compliance buyout left, unlimited regular buyouts. I believe he meant regular buyout for Tootoo.

This.  Regular/ordinary, same thing.







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