Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

So what do we have to trade?


  • Please log in to reply
57 replies to this topic

#41 number9

number9

    All The Best Players Wear A 9

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,904 posts
  • Location:Buffalo

Posted 09 May 2014 - 12:00 AM

I'd say Franzen's value is that of a bag of pucks but....


A 4 million forward that gets 41 pts in 54 games gets a bag of pucks? While we're at it let's trade for Crosby

#42 Dabura

Dabura

    Everydayer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,111 posts
  • Location:In an octopus's garden

Posted 09 May 2014 - 02:21 AM

I would add Ericsson on the trade list also.

Smith is a good fit for Kronwall.
E is supposed to be physical... but he isn't.

 

Ericsson's actually stepped up his physical game. At the very least, he's our best shutdown guy (though, DeKeyser will be overtaking him soon) and definitely one of our better penalty killers. The big issue with him is we expect him and need him to basically be a 1B to Kronwall's 1A, which is ludicrous, as he's a second-pairing guy, if that. Of course, this is all moot, as - like I said - he's basically untouchable for the time being. If there's one thing Ken Holland loves above all else, it's his loyal homegrown success stories like Ericsson. Hence Ericsson's recent multi-year extension.


Don't Toews me, bro!


#43 DickieDunn

DickieDunn

    http://redwingsandotherthings.wordpress.com/

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,557 posts
  • Location:Belding

Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:34 AM

Ericsson was never considered a huge hitter. People see big guy and think big hits. The reality is that bigger guys don't usually have to throw big hits to be effective so they don't learn to play like that. Look at some of the mist dangerous hitters, most aren't really big.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#44 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,277 posts
  • Location:Washington, District of Columbia

Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:42 AM

Ericsson is nasty along the boards, but I'll agree with Dickie (first?) that he's not a big open ice hitter.  However, to say he isn't physical (as someone else implied) is untrue.  Exhibit A:  Last year's Chicago series.  See below: 

 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#45 Richdg

Richdg

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:23 PM

Dabura, the links you posted the other day show that Dekeyser is already our best defensive Dman. it also shows that both Kronwall and ericsson are second pair guys defensively.

 

yes E and Kronwall will throw a big hit once and a while which is fine. But neither do it much. Of course they are on the opposite ends of the size spectrum. But from a Dman I am ok with 1 hit per game as an average. Which both do. All of our Dmen are in that range for hits. It is at the forward spot that I like to see guys that pound on the other teams D. Guys like Martin who averages 5 hits per game.


Now back to the point. We have some pieces we can in fact move. If we add a UFA or 2, that gives us more pieces to move. We have plenty of cap space for us to do so, will Holland act? No idea-but not betting on it......



#46 kylee

kylee

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,466 posts

Posted 10 May 2014 - 05:24 AM

Franzen and a pick for Nash

#47 Dabura

Dabura

    Everydayer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,111 posts
  • Location:In an octopus's garden

Posted 10 May 2014 - 11:13 AM

Dabura, the links you posted the other day show that Dekeyser is already our best defensive Dman. it also shows that both Kronwall and ericsson are second pair guys defensively.

 

Well, firstly, I guess I did contradict myself a little. (If Ericsson's a #4 and DeKeyser's a #3, well...) Basically, I give Ericsson a slight edge because of his experience. I think over the course of the 2014-15 campaign we're going to see DeKeyser become our best defensive defenseman - but, at present, I rate Ericsson a bit higher. We really, really, really, really, really, really, really missed him against the Bruins.

 

The second thing - you say "defensively." Kronwall may not be our best defenseman in the d-zone (debatable), but, all things considered, he's by far our best and most valuable defenseman. He's not an ideal #1, but as things currently stand, he is our blue line.

 

And that's on Ken Holland.

 

You don't lose Lidstrom and Rafalski and then make excuses about how gosh darn hard it is to get a top-end NHL defenseman, sitting on your hands for 3+ years because "The way you win is you build from within." Sure, building from within is essential, but getting a top-end defenseman and building from within don't have to be mutually exclusive. Case in point, we could move two of our top defense prospects for a top-pairing guy and still have two very good defense prospects remaining. Four very good prospects (when we only have room for two, realistically) vs. two very good prospects and a top-pairing NHL defenseman? I'd take the latter. But then, I wouldn't replace Lidstrom and Rafalski with Quincey and Colaiacovo. I guess that's why I'm not an NHL GM. *hangs head in shame*

 

But I digress.[/weekly rant]

 

My perfect offseason brings in two top-four defenseman, one a signing and the other an acquisition. One might call that overkill, but I call it trying to contend for the Cup right now because we're the Red Wings. I like Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko, and Backman, but I also like John Carlson. The key is, Carlson is a #1 or #2 in this league, whereas there's no guarantee that any of the aformentioned Griffins will ever be that good. And even if we knew one or two of them would be that good, we could add a guy who's that good right now or we could wait a few years and let our core get that much older and then Sproul is that good but Datsyuk is gone and so is Zetterberg's back.

 

Because I know someone's going to say, "But wait, I thought you hate the Jarnkrok deal. What's the difference?" - the difference is that our return for Jarnkrok (and a second-round pick) was 33-year-old rental David Legwand. John Carlson - as you've mentioned - is younger than Brendan Smith and already on Kronwall's level, more or less. Legwand vs. Carlson.

 

Of course, I dunno that any package from any team could get the Caps to move Carlson. But that's not the point. It doesn't have to be Carlson. It could be Yandle, or Byfuglien, or Ehrhoff, or Shattenkirk, or Josi, or Faulk - there are possibilities out there. I believe, with the young assets we have, there are deals that can be made. I don't believe Holland when he says "There really haven't been any options, so there's nothing much I can do about it. No one moves key players anymore."


Don't Toews me, bro!


#48 Euro_Twins

Euro_Twins

    Healthy Scratch

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,885 posts
  • Location:Windsor, Ontario

Posted 10 May 2014 - 02:31 PM

Franzen and a pick for Nash


Lol no thanks
I like a top pairing of kronwall and Smith

#49 DickieDunn

DickieDunn

    http://redwingsandotherthings.wordpress.com/

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,557 posts
  • Location:Belding

Posted 10 May 2014 - 02:34 PM

Suter is the only defensemen who is clearly better than Kronwall who has moved, and he went to the team willing and able to pay his BFF a ridiculous matching contract.  Over $15 mil for Suter and Parise is not a good deal, especially when it runs through 2025.  Weber was a RFA but Nashville wasn't going to lose him right after losing Suter.

 

So I guess my question is, how the f--- do you replace Lidstrom?

 

The answer is, you don't.  You take the younger guys you've drafted, add Dekeyeser, and hope that e of them can grow into top 4 D to play with Kronwall.  Ericsson and Dekeyser are 2nd pairing guys now, Dekeyser is getting better and Smith might be there next year.  Then there are Sproul, Backman, Ouellet, Marchenko, and Jensen.

 

You can say "well, those types of guys would be moved for the right package," but the odds are that the right package would mean a ridiculous overpayment.  They don't need a player bad enough to trade something like Tatar, Jurco, Sproul, Backman, and Mrazek to get him.


Edited by DickieDunn, 10 May 2014 - 02:37 PM.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#50 Richdg

Richdg

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 10 May 2014 - 02:43 PM

DD, yes we do. Anytime you can pick up PROVEN stars for prospects you are winning the trade. rentals not included of course. prospects are great, but they haven't proven anything yet and 2 out of 3 never will.



#51 DickieDunn

DickieDunn

    http://redwingsandotherthings.wordpress.com/

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,557 posts
  • Location:Belding

Posted 10 May 2014 - 04:01 PM

There has to be a team looking, or at least willing, to trade a top flight player though.  No top d-men have been traded recently.  Only one hit free agency.  


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#52 wingedominance13

wingedominance13

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 384 posts

Posted 10 May 2014 - 04:29 PM

There has to be a team looking, or at least willing, to trade a top flight player though.  No top d-men have been traded recently.  Only one hit free agency.  

Agree completely, only high caliber top pairing guy was a underachieving (at the time) Boumeister and Holland offered and Calgary chose a different deal



#53 Richdg

Richdg

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 10 May 2014 - 08:58 PM

I understand that. it takes two to tango. There are deals out there, always is. The questions become who for whom. Most of which we the fans never find out about.



#54 Dabura

Dabura

    Everydayer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,111 posts
  • Location:In an octopus's garden

Posted 10 May 2014 - 09:06 PM

Suter is the only defensemen who is clearly better than Kronwall who has moved, and he went to the team willing and able to pay his BFF a ridiculous matching contract.  Over $15 mil for Suter and Parise is not a good deal, especially when it runs through 2025.  Weber was a RFA but Nashville wasn't going to lose him right after losing Suter.

 

So I guess my question is, how the f--- do you replace Lidstrom?

 

The answer is, you don't.  You take the younger guys you've drafted, add Dekeyeser, and hope that e of them can grow into top 4 D to play with Kronwall.  Ericsson and Dekeyser are 2nd pairing guys now, Dekeyser is getting better and Smith might be there next year.  Then there are Sproul, Backman, Ouellet, Marchenko, and Jensen.

 

You can say "well, those types of guys would be moved for the right package," but the odds are that the right package would mean a ridiculous overpayment.  They don't need a player bad enough to trade something like Tatar, Jurco, Sproul, Backman, and Mrazek to get him.

 

That you can't actually replace Nick Lidstrom is, to me, a straw man. I'm not saying we need another Lidstrom, because there is no other Lidstrom. I'm saying if you lose Lidstrom and Rafalski in the span of two seasons, you go out and you get a very good defenseman who's going to help soften the blow.

 

It's easy for me to say that, but it's also easy to sit on your hands because "There's no one out there and no we don't want that guy and no those guys are all gonna be way too expensive and no those guys are way too old and no we don't actually need anyone our blue line is fine because Smith might be a #4 next season and we have kids who may be really good second-pairing guys in a couple years when Datsyuk is gone so we're gonna contend for the Cup next season because we're gonna be really good unless we don't do too well in which case we're in a transition stage so if you thought we were gonna contend for the Cup that's your own fault for being unrealistic no team wins the Cup every season you're spoiled there's no hockey store it takes two to dance brb trading Jarnkrok + 2nd 4 Legwand hi I'm back so as I was saying being a GM is awesome."

 

Sign and/or trade for a high-end defenseman. I know it's never been done before in the history of professional hockey, but there's a first time for everything!


Don't Toews me, bro!


#55 Richdg

Richdg

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 10 May 2014 - 09:12 PM

True, there is no other Lidstrom out there. but there are guys between where he was and where say Quincey is. If nick was a say 98 and Quincey is a 70, we can't find a couple of guys that are 85's? That is how we have to look at things. It wasn't just Nick. It was also Stuart and rafi. That is 3 guys and we haven't replaced any of them. Now maybe Dekeyser is one of those guys, but we need more.



#56 Euro_Twins

Euro_Twins

    Healthy Scratch

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,885 posts
  • Location:Windsor, Ontario

Posted 10 May 2014 - 10:01 PM

True, there is no other Lidstrom out there. but there are guys between where he was and where say Quincey is. If nick was a say 98 and Quincey is a 70, we can't find a couple of guys that are 85's? That is how we have to look at things. It wasn't just Nick. It was also Stuart and rafi. That is 3 guys and we haven't replaced any of them. Now maybe Dekeyser is one of those guys, but we need more.


Holland did try. Quincey was doing well in Colorado, he got dekeyser, he pi ked up Colo who was good in st. Louis but injury prone, he got white who looked awesome till lids left.

To say we didn't even try to replace lids is nonsense, we tried and failed but we did try, at least dekeyser is turning out how we wanted, and he didn't even have a sophomore slump.

#57 Richdg

Richdg

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 11 May 2014 - 12:48 PM

Holland did try. Quincey was doing well in Colorado, he got dekeyser, he pi ked up Colo who was good in st. Louis but injury prone, he got white who looked awesome till lids left.

To say we didn't even try to replace lids is nonsense, we tried and failed but we did try, at least dekeyser is turning out how we wanted, and he didn't even have a sophomore slump.

ET In understand what you are trying to say, but this is the real world. You either do or you don't do. Holland didn't. There may be many reasons for it-real and imagined, but at the end of the day you don't get credit for trying. 

 

BTW There is no  bigger Dekeyser fan than me. But next season is the year to watch out for the soph slump. To date DD has played a total of 83 NHL games-regular season and playoffs. Same thing is true for Juroc, tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, etc...... Next year is the year we have to watch out for.  



#58 Euro_Twins

Euro_Twins

    Healthy Scratch

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,885 posts
  • Location:Windsor, Ontario

Posted 11 May 2014 - 01:11 PM

ET In understand what you are trying to say, but this is the real world. You either do or you don't do. Holland didn't. There may be many reasons for it-real and imagined, but at the end of the day you don't get credit for trying. 
 
BTW There is no  bigger Dekeyser fan than me. But next season is the year to watch out for the soph slump. To date DD has played a total of 83 NHL games-regular season and playoffs. Same thing is true for Juroc, tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, etc...... Next year is the year we have to watch out for.  


People keep saying he did nothing to replace lost players, but it's not true, the players that are available we picked up and we lost out on suter which we could do nothing about. Holland made an attempt and none of the players turned out the way he thought they would





Similar Topics Collapse

  Topic Forum Started By Stats Last Post Info

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users