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Dan Boyle not coming back to the Sharks


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#41 Euro_Twins

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 08:20 PM

I'd love to have Boyle.  Under-valued for his current expectation because of his recent struggles, but a champion is inside.


He would redeem himself in Detroit. I'd love to have him

#42 frankgrimes

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 04:32 AM

Rather trade for Luke Schenn, who seems to be getting bigger and stronger every season. Guy is an extremely hard worker and trains with Shea Weber. Boyle from 2 - 3 years ago sure but right now no thanks.


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#43 Dabura

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 07:51 AM

BoG7csAIcAA3SWP.jpg

 

I wouldn't want Schenn as our only addition. He's a shutdown defenseman and I don't think we need another one of those. The Wings are supposed to be a high-scoring team, the offense being driven primarily by two top-end puck-moving, offensively inclined, PP-quarterbacking veteran defensemen. We have one in Kronwall. We could have another in Boyle. His age won't be a big issue if he's used properly and we're able to play our possession game. Timonen in Philly probably should've retired two seasons ago, but he's continued to be their most valuable defenseman. He moves the puck, he drives possession and the attack. He's small and old and slow and weak, but it hasn't mattered all that much, because they haven't asked him to be more like Luke Schenn.

 

We're not getting nearly enough production from our blue line. Kronwall's doing what he can, but that's all we've got. DeKeyser is a defensive defenseman. Smith may or may not become the high-scoring poor man's Erik Karlsson that we want him to be. Quincey is Quincey. I wouldn't expect any of the kids to be big producers in their first few seasons. Adding Schenn would be adding another guy who doesn't have great offensive instincts and won't really help with our breakouts.


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#44 Dabura

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 08:03 AM

We're not getting nearly enough production from our blue line. Kronwall's doing what he can, but that's all we've got. DeKeyser is a defensive defenseman. Smith may or may not become the high-scoring poor man's Erik Karlsson that we want him to be. Quincey is Quincey. I wouldn't expect any of the kids to be big producers in their first few seasons. Adding Schenn would be adding another guy who doesn't have great offensive instincts and won't really help with our breakouts.

 

I forgot to mention Ericsson. Ericsson doesn't produce much; he's a shutdown defenseman.

 

Kronwall is our only reliable point producer.


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#45 Dabura

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 08:37 AM

Justin Bourne wrote a piece a little while back about the importance of having a cornerstone defenseman. He listed each team's #1 defenseman and divided the teams according to how they (the teams) ultimately fared this season. The point he was making is that the remaining playoff teams generally boast better #1s than the teams that have been eliminated, and the teams that have been eliminated generally boast better #1s than the teams that didn't make the playoffs. But what really struck me is that virtually none of the league's #1s are shutdown types. These days (maybe like always), a Truly Elite Defenseman is, basically, a two-way monster. He can defend, but maybe more importantly, he moves the puck exceptionally well and puts up lots-o-points. He drives possession, offense. He runs the power play...

 

I'm not saying Dan Boyle is one of the true elites. But he's a lot closer than a Luke Schenn. With Kronwall being excellent (though, not elite) in his own right, we don't necessarily need a true elite. We just need a guy who has that kind of ability. A guy like...Dan Boyle. After two years of Boyle, Smith would, hopefully, be a big producer, and Sproul (who I think has the potential to be a #1 in this league) would be ready to play big minutes. And even if Boyle gets hurt or seriously falters, well, that's an opportunity for one of the kids. So, to me, it's a win-win.


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#46 WingsallTheway

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 08:47 AM

Rather trade for Luke Schenn, who seems to be getting bigger and stronger every season. Guy is an extremely hard worker and trains with Shea Weber. Boyle from 2 - 3 years ago sure but right now no thanks.

 

Schenn is brutal. Hes nothing more than a 6th defenceman; which we have 4 of 


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#47 Euro_Twins

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 10:59 AM

Justin Bourne wrote a piece a little while back about the importance of having a cornerstone defenseman. He listed each team's #1 defenseman and divided the teams according to how they (the teams) ultimately fared this season. The point he was making is that the remaining playoff teams generally boast better #1s than the teams that have been eliminated, and the teams that have been eliminated generally boast better #1s than the teams that didn't make the playoffs. But what really struck me is that virtually none of the league's #1s are shutdown types. These days (maybe like always), a Truly Elite Defenseman is, basically, a two-way monster. He can defend, but maybe more importantly, he moves the puck exceptionally well and puts up lots-o-points. He drives possession, offense. He runs the power play...
 
I'm not saying Dan Boyle is one of the true elites. But he's a lot closer than a Luke Schenn. With Kronwall being excellent (though, not elite) in his own right, we don't necessarily need a true elite. We just need a guy who has that kind of ability. A guy like...Dan Boyle. After two years of Boyle, Smith would, hopefully, be a big producer, and Sproul (who I think has the potential to be a #1 in this league) would be ready to play big minutes. And even if Boyle gets hurt or seriously falters, well, that's an opportunity for one of the kids. So, to me, it's a win-win.


And we don't have to trade to get him

#48 Jesusberg

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 11:09 AM

 

I forgot to mention Ericsson. Ericsson doesn't produce much; he's a shutdown defenseman.

 

Kronwall is our only reliable point producer.

 

I truly feel as if Smith could jump to the 30-35 range next year, given some actual PP time. One of his biggest issues at the beginning of the year and prior was getting the puck out of the zone - boneheaded passes up the middle. He seemed to get away from that near the end, and especially when paired with Kronwall. More poise in the defensive zone and some time on the PP and I think this team has got another point producer.

 

Justin Bourne wrote a piece a little while back about the importance of having a cornerstone defenseman. He listed each team's #1 defenseman and divided the teams according to how they (the teams) ultimately fared this season. The point he was making is that the remaining playoff teams generally boast better #1s than the teams that have been eliminated, and the teams that have been eliminated generally boast better #1s than the teams that didn't make the playoffs. But what really struck me is that virtually none of the league's #1s are shutdown types. These days (maybe like always), a Truly Elite Defenseman is, basically, a two-way monster. He can defend, but maybe more importantly, he moves the puck exceptionally well and puts up lots-o-points. He drives possession, offense. He runs the power play...

 

I'm not saying Dan Boyle is one of the true elites. But he's a lot closer than a Luke Schenn. With Kronwall being excellent (though, not elite) in his own right, we don't necessarily need a true elite. We just need a guy who has that kind of ability. A guy like...Dan Boyle. After two years of Boyle, Smith would, hopefully, be a big producer, and Sproul (who I think has the potential to be a #1 in this league) would be ready to play big minutes. And even if Boyle gets hurt or seriously falters, well, that's an opportunity for one of the kids. So, to me, it's a win-win.

 

I think it's been pretty obvious in recent posts that I'm pro-Boyle, and I agree completely above the elite defenders. Doughty and Keith are there, McDonagh has turned into that guy. I don't think PK is that two-way monster, but Markov makes up for it. Regardless, those are the guys who dictate possession.

I also agree with the sentiment behind having Boyle mentor the other offensive defenders. I think Smith, Sproul, etc could learn from watching his poise, ability to hold the puck at the blueline and his puck movement. I'm not sure about the "Sproul being a #1 in this league" comment. I am a huge, huge Sproul fan, but I think his defensive game is definitely lacking. He's really at a crossroads right now where he needs to fill out and shore up his defensive game, or he could run the risk of developing a Cody Franson type game. That's the downside with him - an offensively driven big man who is prone to defensive lapses - a PP specialist. Right now I see Sproul as having a 2nd pairing guy kind of upside, but that could change, obviously. I for one really hope he rounds out into a two-way guy.



#49 Dabura

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 11:20 AM

It's probably moot. We'll sign Tom Gilbert ultra-cheap or sign Derek Morris ultra-expensive or something and none of us will be happy and yeah.


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#50 Dabura

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 12:31 PM

And we don't have to trade to get him

 

Personally, I'm ok with trading for a defenseman, but I'd like for him to be a top-end player. I don't really see Schenn being a top-four rock on a skill-centric possession team (maaaybe a Brad Stuart-esque #4), which means we're talking about the third pairing, which means we're also talking about four or five NHL-ready kids with good upside, plus Kindl and Lashoff. So, unless he'd come real cheap, I wouldn't want to trade for Schenn. But a high-end guy? I'd be open to that. Free agency should be the priority, though.

 

I truly feel as if Smith could jump to the 30-35 range next year, given some actual PP time. One of his biggest issues at the beginning of the year and prior was getting the puck out of the zone - boneheaded passes up the middle. He seemed to get away from that near the end, and especially when paired with Kronwall. More poise in the defensive zone and some time on the PP and I think this team has got another point producer.

 

 

I think it's been pretty obvious in recent posts that I'm pro-Boyle, and I agree completely above the elite defenders. Doughty and Keith are there, McDonagh has turned into that guy. I don't think PK is that two-way monster, but Markov makes up for it. Regardless, those are the guys who dictate possession.

I also agree with the sentiment behind having Boyle mentor the other offensive defenders. I think Smith, Sproul, etc could learn from watching his poise, ability to hold the puck at the blueline and his puck movement. I'm not sure about the "Sproul being a #1 in this league" comment. I am a huge, huge Sproul fan, but I think his defensive game is definitely lacking. He's really at a crossroads right now where he needs to fill out and shore up his defensive game, or he could run the risk of developing a Cody Franson type game. That's the downside with him - an offensively driven big man who is prone to defensive lapses - a PP specialist. Right now I see Sproul as having a 2nd pairing guy kind of upside, but that could change, obviously. I for one really hope he rounds out into a two-way guy.

 

I probably should've been clearer. I don't think Sproul is going to be a two-way monster. It's possible, but unlikely.

 

I can see Sproul putting up points like a lunatic and throwing some big hits while being so-so in his own end. (I don't see this happening right away. This would be a few years down the road.) Given the precedent that's been set by guys like Green and Karlsson and Subban and Letang (and, again, maybe we can go back as far as Coffey, Orr...), that would actually make Sproul one of the better defensemen in this league and a fringe Norris Trophy candidate, not unlike Kronwall. So, it's not necessarily that I think he's going to be facemeltingly amazing. I just think he fits the mold of That Guy Every Team Wants and Needs at Least One of on the Blue Line. Not on the same level as Keith or Doughty or Weber or Chara or Suter (two-way monsters)...or Karlsson or Subban (one-way monsters), for that matter. But those are insanely rare and special players.

 

What I'm getting at is, the "new" school is never having to actually play defense. You still need your Schenns and Fistrics and Lashoffs, but the closer we can get our top three to what we had with Lidstrom-Rafalski-Kronwall, the better. That means, of course, we'll definitely need a two-way monster (who may or may not be an elderly Kronwall), and I'm not too confident Sproul is going to be that guy. But, the more offense from our defense, the better.

 

I'm hoping Smith can blossom with some PP time and more experience. He's one of our better puck-movers at present, and he has pretty good offensive insticts - so he's far from expendable. But if he doesn't show some pretty significant growth, and if even one of the kids below manages to do what he was supposed to do and makes an impact straight out of the gate (as opposed to needing 3-4 years to be a solid top-four defenseman, after having spent extra time on the farm), he's going to fall down the depth chart, and if we then decide to move him, we'll be selling quite low. So it's an interesting situation with Smith.


Edited by Dabura, 24 May 2014 - 12:33 PM.

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#51 Dabura

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 12:46 PM

Heh, this was posted 45 minutes ago:

 

Drew Doughty, the Nicklas Lidstrom of [the?] Los Angeles Kings [Puck Daddy]


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#52 Euro_Twins

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 12:47 PM

 
Personally, I'm ok with trading for a defenseman, but I'd like for him to be a top-end player. I don't really see Schenn being a top-four rock on a skill-centric possession team (maaaybe a Brad Stuart-esque #4), which means we're talking about the third pairing, which means we're also talking about four or five NHL-ready kids with good upside, plus Kindl and Lashoff. So, unless he'd come real cheap, I wouldn't want to trade for Schenn. But a high-end guy? I'd be open to that. Free agency should be the priority, though.
 
 
I probably should've been clearer. I don't think Sproul is going to be a two-way monster. It's possible, but unlikely.
 
I can see Sproul putting up points like a lunatic and throwing some big hits while being so-so in his own end. (I don't see this happening right away. This would be a few years down the road.) Given the precedent that's been set by guys like Green and Karlsson and Subban and Letang (and, again, maybe we can go back as far as Coffey, Orr...), that would actually make Sproul one of the better defensemen in this league and a fringe Norris Trophy candidate, not unlike Kronwall. So, it's not necessarily that I think he's going to be facemeltingly amazing. I just think he fits the mold of That Guy Every Team Wants and Needs at Least One of on the Blue Line. Not on the same level as Keith or Doughty or Weber or Chara or Suter (two-way monsters)...or Karlsson or Subban (one-way monsters), for that matter. But those are insanely rare and special players.
 
What I'm getting at is, the "new" school is never having to actually play defense. You still need your Schenns and Fistrics and Lashoffs, but the closer we can get our top three to what we had with Lidstrom-Rafalski-Kronwall, the better. That means, of course, we'll definitely need a two-way monster (who may or may not be an elderly Kronwall), and I'm not too confident Sproul is going to be that guy. But, the more offense from our defense, the better.
 
I'm hoping Smith can blossom with some PP time and more experience. He's one of our better puck-movers at present, and he has pretty good offensive insticts - so he's far from expendable. But if he doesn't show some pretty significant growth, and if even one of the kids below manages to do what he was supposed to do and makes an impact straight out of the gate (as opposed to needing 3-4 years to be a solid top-four defenseman, after having spent extra time on the farm), he's going to fall down the depth chart, and if we then decide to move him, we'll be selling quite low. So it's an interesting situation with Smith.


I agree we should trade for a top pairing dman depending on the cost, but we should also sign Boyle as well. I agree with you on schenn, which was the point I was making no need to trade for a guy that will give us the same result as players we already have in the pipeline

#53 Dabura

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 12:59 PM

Also - I feel bad for any and every defenseman who has to play under Randy Carlyle. He has no idea what he's doing, which puts a world of strain on his defensemen. So, while a guy like Franson may be seen as sort of a problem player, I think that's largely on the coach and his "systems" and his dumb-ass decisions.

 

But now I'm derailing the thread. Sorry!


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#54 Euro_Twins

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 01:29 PM

Also - I feel bad for any and every defenseman who has to play under Randy Carlyle. He has no idea what he's doing, which puts a world of strain on his defensemen. So, while a guy like Franson may be seen as sort of a problem player, I think that's largely on the coach and his "systems" and his dumb-ass decisions.
 
But now I'm derailing the thread. Sorry!


It's ok he's been extended another two years, so no need to fear no free agents are going to Toronto unless they vastly overpay, see Clarkson, David

#55 Dabura

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 08:49 PM

It's ok he's been extended another two years, so no need to fear no free agents are going to Toronto unless they vastly overpay, see Clarkson, David

 

Wasn't Clarkson's decision based mostly on his Mimico roots? (Not that the money wasn't key.)

 

In any case, I just wanted to point out - in re: to Jesusberg - that while Sproul might possibly go the Franson route, Franson plays for Randy Carlyle, who's ruining his young players.

 

I like the idea of Boyle as a mentor. Or, rather, Boyle and Kronwall as mentors.

 

I agree we should trade for a top pairing dman depending on the cost, but we should also sign Boyle as well. I agree with you on schenn, which was the point I was making no need to trade for a guy that will give us the same result as players we already have in the pipeline

 

Hey, since we're talking about Schenn...

 

Flyers could've had Keith Yandle, wound up with Luke Schenn


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#56 Euro_Twins

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 10:16 PM

 

Wasn't Clarkson's decision based mostly on his Mimico roots? (Not that the money wasn't key.)

 

In any case, I just wanted to point out - in re: to Jesusberg - that while Sproul might possibly go the Franson route, Franson plays for Randy Carlyle, who's ruining his young players.

 

I like the idea of Boyle as a mentor. Or, rather, Boyle and Kronwall as mentors.

 

 

Hey, since we're talking about Schenn...

 

Flyers could've had Keith Yandle, wound up with Luke Schenn

 

If anyone knows quality defensemen, it's certainly Philly!!



#57 Jesusberg

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 03:33 AM

 

Personally, I'm ok with trading for a defenseman, but I'd like for him to be a top-end player. I don't really see Schenn being a top-four rock on a skill-centric possession team (maaaybe a Brad Stuart-esque #4), which means we're talking about the third pairing, which means we're also talking about four or five NHL-ready kids with good upside, plus Kindl and Lashoff. So, unless he'd come real cheap, I wouldn't want to trade for Schenn. But a high-end guy? I'd be open to that. Free agency should be the priority, though.

 

 

I probably should've been clearer. I don't think Sproul is going to be a two-way monster. It's possible, but unlikely.

 

I can see Sproul putting up points like a lunatic and throwing some big hits while being so-so in his own end. (I don't see this happening right away. This would be a few years down the road.) Given the precedent that's been set by guys like Green and Karlsson and Subban and Letang (and, again, maybe we can go back as far as Coffey, Orr...), that would actually make Sproul one of the better defensemen in this league and a fringe Norris Trophy candidate, not unlike Kronwall. So, it's not necessarily that I think he's going to be facemeltingly amazing. I just think he fits the mold of That Guy Every Team Wants and Needs at Least One of on the Blue Line. Not on the same level as Keith or Doughty or Weber or Chara or Suter (two-way monsters)...or Karlsson or Subban (one-way monsters), for that matter. But those are insanely rare and special players.

 

What I'm getting at is, the "new" school is never having to actually play defense. You still need your Schenns and Fistrics and Lashoffs, but the closer we can get our top three to what we had with Lidstrom-Rafalski-Kronwall, the better. That means, of course, we'll definitely need a two-way monster (who may or may not be an elderly Kronwall), and I'm not too confident Sproul is going to be that guy. But, the more offense from our defense, the better.

 

I'm hoping Smith can blossom with some PP time and more experience. He's one of our better puck-movers at present, and he has pretty good offensive insticts - so he's far from expendable. But if he doesn't show some pretty significant growth, and if even one of the kids below manages to do what he was supposed to do and makes an impact straight out of the gate (as opposed to needing 3-4 years to be a solid top-four defenseman, after having spent extra time on the farm), he's going to fall down the depth chart, and if we then decide to move him, we'll be selling quite low. So it's an interesting situation with Smith.

 

I can see the points there, as well. His skating is much better than I thought it was - or at least, it improved. If he can settle in around that 40 point area, I'm absolutely happy - if his defensive game improves, even better. Regardless of the situation, I do think you have a PP specialist, 30+ point player in Sproul, I'm just hoping there's more there.

I think paired with Ericsson this season will do him a world of good. I also think that down the line, someone stable like DeKeyser or Ouellet could be a really good partner for him. Speedy guys who play a smart, quiet game. He's the kind of guy who needs to be able to take some chances to be most effect (same with Smith, IMO), so I'd hope for a fitting partner. His PP skill will run itself, we'll see what happens 5-on-5.

Back to Smith, I actually have hope for him. I think his biggest enemy is himself. You can see how dejected he gets when he makes a mistake, but when he's playing with confidence and taking risks, he's a fun guy to watch. I don't think Quincey can take the blame (not all of it, anyway), but I think a more stable partner will make a world of good. Quincey seemed to do a lot of "one-touch" play, getting rid of the puck ASAP. As has been mentioned, possession is key and if you've got both guys playing hot potato...

I can see him being moved if one of the kids blows up, and I really think it could come down to DeKeyser vs. Smith, and you take DeKeyser in that situation. Barring any unforeseen circumstances, Kronwall and Ericsson are here for another five years, DK's probably going to be a fixture. You've got the big four defensive prospects knocking on the door, so Smith is going to have to earn his keep, for sure.

 

Also - I feel bad for any and every defenseman who has to play under Randy Carlyle. He has no idea what he's doing, which puts a world of strain on his defensemen. So, while a guy like Franson may be seen as sort of a problem player, I think that's largely on the coach and his "systems" and his dumb-ass decisions.

 

But now I'm derailing the thread. Sorry!

Franson seemed to be put into situations where he was asked to do too much. He went from being used as purely an offensive defender to having to work on the PK, and being paired with guys like Gardiner and Rielly. I'm not 100% sure on who he was put with last season, but it just seemed as if he was allowed to play more in his comfort zone. I think the transition could have been handled more smoothly, obviously. My comparison between Sproul and Franson wasn't so much as a slight to Franson, as much as it was me being worried about a similar situation. His "rounding into a two-way" defender hasn't been handled well, obviously. 



#58 Wings_Toledo

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 04:46 PM

To go with the discussion about having a puck-moving offensive defenseman: just look at the L.A. Kings in this year's playoffs.  They have Doughty, Voynov and Martinez, who I would consider all to be offensive type defensemen (Doughty being an elite, two-way guy).  It's no wonder they're the top scoring team in the playoffs right now with their D guys jumping into the play and making very quick passes up to their forwards who then use their speed to burn the other team.

 

The Wings can play like that if they have guys on the back end who can make those quick passes.  Unfortunately, Kronwall and Smith (sort of) are the only guys who regularly show those kind of skills.  Boyle would help in this area but I would rather see Holland go after someone who will be a part of the team for longer than 1-2 seasons.



#59 _SP_

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 06:00 PM

Everyone complaining about Boyle's statistics this year... do you take into consideration his significant concussion he sustained at the beginning of the year?  Or the fact that those of us who are advocating for his signing only want him in the bottom four and on the power play??  You're not signing a #1 Defenseman because... there isn't one.

 

Kronwall-Smith
Ericsson-Ouellet
DeKeyser-Boyle

PK1: Kronwall-Smith
PK2: DeKeyser-Ericsson

PP1: Smith-Boyle
PP2: Kronwall-Ouellet

 

 

Leave Kindl on the bench or roll with Lashoff/Marchenko as #7.  The team has the cap space; I say keep Kindl as a top #7 option.



#60 Jesusberg

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 12:24 PM

To go with the discussion about having a puck-moving offensive defenseman: just look at the L.A. Kings in this year's playoffs.  They have Doughty, Voynov and Martinez, who I would consider all to be offensive type defensemen (Doughty being an elite, two-way guy).  It's no wonder they're the top scoring team in the playoffs right now with their D guys jumping into the play and making very quick passes up to their forwards who then use their speed to burn the other team.

 

The Wings can play like that if they have guys on the back end who can make those quick passes.  Unfortunately, Kronwall and Smith (sort of) are the only guys who regularly show those kind of skills.  Boyle would help in this area but I would rather see Holland go after someone who will be a part of the team for longer than 1-2 seasons.

Agree with looking at LA's model, and I'd even toss Muzzin's name into that conversation. Very good movement even within the offensive zone during PP time, etc. 

I think the line of thought around grabbing someone like Boyle for 1-2 years, as opposed to Niskanen for 6-7 is that the kids coming up could very well have just as much upside as Niskanen, without paying the chunk of change he's going to demand. If Niskanen were a proven commodity, then I would think differently, but he's only had two 30 point seasons over six years. Teams are going to throw the bank at him, and I'm just not sure he'll be worth it.

Even next season, Mike Green is pretty much the only worthwhile acquisition on defense. I would much rather grab Boyle short term, and let whoever out of Sproul, Ouellet, Backman and Marchenko step up, because I'm willing to be two of those four will be quality, top 4 defenders in 3 seasons.

Now if you're thinking trade route, that's a different story. That's also a place where I see Kenny having to move a lot of assets that not every one would be thrilled about moving.







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