Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Mantha named CHL player of the year


  • Please log in to reply
48 replies to this topic

#21 DickieDunn

DickieDunn

    http://redwingsandotherthings.wordpress.com/

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,421 posts
  • Location:Belding

Posted 25 May 2014 - 10:52 AM


Honestly, I'd be quietly shopping him to see if I could get a young proven high end player.


 
So you'd trade Mantha before he even gets a shot at the professional level?  That's just ridiculous.


Yes, I would trade potential for proven high level production every time. If you can get a 24 or 25 year old 30 goal scorer for a fut who might score that much 5 years later do it. That's not ridiculous, it's smart.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#22 Wings_Toledo

Wings_Toledo

    Seeing Red

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 788 posts
  • Location:Cincinnati, OH

Posted 25 May 2014 - 11:01 AM

Yes, I would trade potential for proven high level production every time. If you can get a 24 or 25 year old 30 goal scorer for a fut who might score that much 5 years later do it. That's not ridiculous, it's smart.

 

I understand trading potential but before even seeing what he can do at the AHL level?  Not to mention that getting the type of player you're talking about would cost much more than just Mantha.  Who knows, Mantha could end up being a bust but I'd like to see him get a chance first before considering trading him away.  And with Holland's track record lately, I'm not so sure the return would be that great...



#23 Euro_Twins

Euro_Twins

    Healthy Scratch

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,165 posts
  • Location:Windsor, Ontario

Posted 25 May 2014 - 11:08 AM

A few things to remember.Success in juniors doesn't guarantee anything in the NHL. Lots of CHL POY were average NHL players or never made it at all.Holland and Babcock always say there is a chance a kid can make the team. They almost never do. They already have Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Weiss, Nyquist, and Tatar signed plus Jurco and a potential free agent. Add in Helm and you have the top 3 lines without Mantha.Honestly, I'd be quietly shopping him to see if I could get a young proven high end player.


A lot of teams wanted him at the trade deadline, and Holland refused, why would he trade him now before the season starts?

#24 under_par_00

under_par_00

    1st Line Sniper

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 861 posts
  • Location:Ontario, Canada

Posted 25 May 2014 - 11:27 AM

FYI as list of previous winners of this award:
 



#25 darkmanx

darkmanx

    Toronto's Finest

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,626 posts
  • Location:Toronto, Canada

Posted 25 May 2014 - 12:05 PM

People want to silently shop Mantha now? wow, thank god your not the GM.

 

We need scoring, Mantha scores. Forget all this no room for Mantha in the top 9. You do realize once he reaches his full potential, all the other guys named will be trade bait.

 

People are quick to whine about Jarnkrok being traded, but Mantha should be on the block. :lol:

 

Going to be a long wait until July 1st and these ridiculous proposals.



#26 DickieDunn

DickieDunn

    http://redwingsandotherthings.wordpress.com/

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,421 posts
  • Location:Belding

Posted 25 May 2014 - 12:16 PM

 

I understand trading potential but before even seeing what he can do at the AHL level?  Not to mention that getting the type of player you're talking about would cost much more than just Mantha.  Who knows, Mantha could end up being a bust but I'd like to see him get a chance first before considering trading him away.  And with Holland's track record lately, I'm not so sure the return would be that great...

 

Because his value is high.  If he gets to GR and struggles, his value will drop.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#27 PavelValerievichDatsyuk

PavelValerievichDatsyuk

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 433 posts
  • Location:Montreal, Quebec

Posted 25 May 2014 - 12:19 PM

Yes, I would trade potential for proven high level production every time. If you can get a 24 or 25 year old 30 goal scorer for a fut who might score that much 5 years later do it. That's not ridiculous, it's smart.

In principle, yes it's smart to trade potential for proven production, but in actuality it's a huge risk in this case and not very smart in my opinion. Mantha has huge potential with his size and skill set. He could be a cornerstone player for the franchise for the rest of his career. I'm not saying that will happen, but that is the potential you'd be trading away. Could you get a player like that in return? Could you replace Mantha with another player who is 6'5"?  

 

     Also, the fan base (me included) would never forgive you for letting Mantha get away if he has any success elsewhere. Mantha is not a regular prospect. The general excitement around him coming to the Wings is something that is great for the franchise (And business - people will buy tickets to see the new junior phenom start his career).  



#28 DickieDunn

DickieDunn

    http://redwingsandotherthings.wordpress.com/

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,421 posts
  • Location:Belding

Posted 25 May 2014 - 12:21 PM

A lot of teams wanted him at the trade deadline, and Holland refused, why would he trade him now before the season starts?

 

What did they offer for him?  Kessler or Edler if he included Nyquist and Sproul?  I wouldn't do that either, and I wouldn't move him just to move him.  I've move him if I could get a young top pair D like McDonough, Subban, Pietrangelo, or a young power forward like Benn, Pacioretty, or Johansen.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#29 DickieDunn

DickieDunn

    http://redwingsandotherthings.wordpress.com/

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,421 posts
  • Location:Belding

Posted 25 May 2014 - 12:28 PM

In principle, yes it's smart to trade potential for proven production, but in actuality it's a huge risk in this case and not very smart in my opinion. Mantha has huge potential with his size and skill set. He could be a cornerstone player for the franchise for the rest of his career. I'm not saying that will happen, but that is the potential you'd be trading away. Could you get a player like that in return? Could you replace Mantha with another player who is 6'5"?  

 

     Also, the fan base (me included) would never forgive you for letting Mantha get away if he has any success elsewhere. Mantha is not a regular prospect. The general excitement around him coming to the Wings is something that is great for the franchise (And business - people will buy tickets to see the new junior phenom start his career).  

 

Give me top high level prospects, let me trade them with secondary assets for high end guys in their prime, I'll lose maybe 1 of 10 times.  The rest of the time the prospect will either eventually match what I get now and it will be a push, or the prospect will never be that good.  Look at the list of CHL players of the year.  4 of them are elite NHL players, with Eberle maybe getting there, and Drouin hasn't played an NHL game yet.  Look at a list of leading scorers in the Q over the last dozen years.  You'll see a lot of guys that tore it up there and did nothing in the NHL.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#30 Mckinley25

Mckinley25

    4th Line Grinder

  • Bronze Booster
  • 262 posts

Posted 25 May 2014 - 12:57 PM

 
Give me top high level prospects, let me trade them with secondary assets for high end guys in their prime, I'll lose maybe 1 of 10 times.  The rest of the time the prospect will either eventually match what I get now and it will be a push, or the prospect will never be that good.  Look at the list of CHL players of the year.  4 of them are elite NHL players, with Eberle maybe getting there, and Drouin hasn't played an NHL game yet.  Look at a list of leading scorers in the Q over the last dozen years.  You'll see a lot of guys that tore it up there and did nothing in the NHL.


I don't know that his potential is based solely on his numbers though. He has the frame to compete at high levels as well. If he can continue to develop he has the tools, those other CHL winners may not have. Doesnt mean Mantha's a sure bet though.

#31 PavelValerievichDatsyuk

PavelValerievichDatsyuk

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 433 posts
  • Location:Montreal, Quebec

Posted 25 May 2014 - 01:18 PM

 

Give me top high level prospects, let me trade them with secondary assets for high end guys in their prime, I'll lose maybe 1 of 10 times.  The rest of the time the prospect will either eventually match what I get now and it will be a push, or the prospect will never be that good.  Look at the list of CHL players of the year.  4 of them are elite NHL players, with Eberle maybe getting there, and Drouin hasn't played an NHL game yet.  Look at a list of leading scorers in the Q over the last dozen years.  You'll see a lot of guys that tore it up there and did nothing in the NHL.

I agree that it's not guaranteed that he will produce in the NHL, but all of what I said still stands. Most of this conversation is pretty pointless since said you'd be willing to trade Mantha for Subban, Pietrangelo, etc. and those guys are not going to be traded.

 

In talking about Mantha's NHL potential, though, I think you are talking too generally about probability. If you stick to generalities, I would probably agree with you, but if you need look at Mantha specifically compared to other CHL players that didn't work out.

 

Not to say that size is everything, but it really does matter when transitioning to the NHL. Those that couldn't make the transition are all small players:

 

Justin Azevedo: 5'8"

Corey Locke: 5'10"

Pierre-Marc Bouchard: 5'10"

Simon Gamache: 5'9"

Brendan Shinnimin: 5'10"

Sergei Varlamov: 5'10"


Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk, 25 May 2014 - 01:19 PM.


#32 Buppy

Buppy

    1st Line All-Star

  • Silver Booster
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 25 May 2014 - 01:53 PM

 

Give me top high level prospects, let me trade them with secondary assets for high end guys in their prime, I'll lose maybe 1 of 10 times.  The rest of the time the prospect will either eventually match what I get now and it will be a push, or the prospect will never be that good.  Look at the list of CHL players of the year.  4 of them are elite NHL players, with Eberle maybe getting there, and Drouin hasn't played an NHL game yet.  Look at a list of leading scorers in the Q over the last dozen years.  You'll see a lot of guys that tore it up there and did nothing in the NHL.

Moot point. No one is going to give up a high end player in his prime for a prospect, unless the prospect is all but guaranteed to be much better. 

 

At best you might find a team with an excess of defensemen willing to move whichever they like least, or a team looking to rebuild willing to part with an aging player, or maybe a pending UFA. But for the most part you'll have to give up a lot more in potential than what you're getting back. 

 

The salary cap is another thing to consider. Cheap production is important. If you're trading for a high-end player, it's going to be someone who already has (or very soon will have) a high-end salary. So it's not just "what can we get from Mantha in the next 5-6 years?"...it's what can we get from Mantha plus the extra $2-5M in cap space? 



#33 Jesusberg

Jesusberg

    1st Line All-Star

  • Gold Booster
  • 1,620 posts
  • Location:Windsor, Ontario

Posted 25 May 2014 - 02:00 PM

I totally understand the logic behind moving potential for a proven commodity. If you can land that blue-chip defender, or consistent goal scorer, you do it. Even if the guy is in his mid to late 20's, you're getting consistency for 5-10 years at least. In the NHL, that's a good chunk of time. I love Mantha's potential, but it's just that - potential. There are still doubts surrounding his game, and I think the fan base is a wee bit excited about the prospect of having a home grown, potential 40 goal scorer.

As far as him leap-frogging Jurco and every one above Jurco in that top six...

 

 

"At times he paces himself. Part of that is the minutes he plays. Also, his talent level allows him to play that way."

If Mantha can't play his way into the top six he'll likely start the season in the AHL because he's not a third- or fourth-line type of player.


"We got lots of younger player in the organization; we're hoping to have a real competitive camp," Holland said. "We're trying to transition from an older team to a younger team but you can't get too young too quickly when you're competing for the Stanley Cup.

I'm not advocating just shipping the guy off for nothing, but if you're getting a stud back... it's just crazy to not make that move. Remove the sentiment and 40 goals is 40 goals. An elite defender is an elite defender. While unlikely to be moved, I'd take any of those guys that DD listed (maybe not Johansen) if Mantha was going the other way. The whole, "let's see what he's got in the AHL" - that just kills his trade value if he struggles. His value is at an all-time high right now, so if they're going to move him, they'd be getting the best value right now.


Edited by Jesusberg, 25 May 2014 - 02:01 PM.


#34 DickieDunn

DickieDunn

    http://redwingsandotherthings.wordpress.com/

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,421 posts
  • Location:Belding

Posted 25 May 2014 - 02:03 PM

Alexandre Daigle.  Radek Bonk.  Al Montoya.  Nikita Filatov.  Patrick Stefan.  Thomas Hickey.  Marek Zagrapan.  AJ Thelen.  Scott Glennie.  All guys drafted high, full of potential, no reason to think they'd flop, and they all did.  

 

You're right, those younger stars probably aren't available, I'd still call and ask though.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#35 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,629 posts
  • Location:Mt. Pleasant, MI

Posted 25 May 2014 - 02:06 PM

I totally understand the logic behind moving potential for a proven commodity. If you can land that blue-chip defender, or consistent goal scorer, you do it. Even if the guy is in his mid to late 20's, you're getting consistency for 5-10 years at least. In the NHL, that's a good chunk of time. I love Mantha's potential, but it's just that - potential. There are still doubts surrounding his game, and I think the fan base is a wee bit excited about the prospect of having a home grown, potential 40 goal scorer.

As far as him leap-frogging Jurco and every one above Jurco in that top six...

 

I'm not advocating just shipping the guy off for nothing, but if you're getting a stud back... it's just crazy to not make that move. Remove the sentiment and 40 goals is 40 goals. An elite defender is an elite defender. While unlikely to be moved, I'd take any of those guys that DD listed (maybe not Johansen) if Mantha was going the other way. The whole, "let's see what he's got in the AHL" - that just kills his trade value if he struggles. His value is at an all-time high right now, so if they're going to move him, they'd be getting the best value right now.

 

I agree with most of your points, but I'll say this...if you wouldn't trade Mantha for Johansen you probably need to watch more of Ryan Johansen.  That dude is a monster.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#36 Jesusberg

Jesusberg

    1st Line All-Star

  • Gold Booster
  • 1,620 posts
  • Location:Windsor, Ontario

Posted 25 May 2014 - 02:10 PM

 

I agree with most of your points, but I'll say this...if you wouldn't trade Mantha for Johansen you probably need to watch more of Ryan Johansen.  That dude is a monster.

Admittedly, I didn't watch much Columbus hockey this year. I know he had a solid season, but the other guys have just shown more consistency over time. My hesitation is purely based on the rest of the guys having a proven track record.



#37 PavelValerievichDatsyuk

PavelValerievichDatsyuk

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 433 posts
  • Location:Montreal, Quebec

Posted 25 May 2014 - 02:36 PM

Alexandre Daigle.  Radek Bonk.  Al Montoya.  Nikita Filatov.  Patrick Stefan.  Thomas Hickey.  Marek Zagrapan.  AJ Thelen.  Scott Glennie.  All guys drafted high, full of potential, no reason to think they'd flop, and they all did.  

 

You're right, those younger stars probably aren't available, I'd still call and ask though.

I was looking at the list of those who won CHL player of the year. I'm not arguing that big players can't flop, but it that it certainly helps the transition to the NHL. I think raises Mantha's probability of success and looking at that CHL player of the year shows that.

 

As a side note:

 

I wouldn't call Radek Bonk a flop. He played about 15 years in the league. had four consecutive 20+ goal seasons.  497 pts in 969 NHL games.

 

Also, Thomas Hickey is in his 2nd season in the NHL season. I don't know much about him, but I think it would probably be too early to call him a flop - especially since he is defenceman and they take longer to develop.


Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk, 25 May 2014 - 02:48 PM.


#38 evilmrt

evilmrt

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,547 posts
  • Location:Winter Freakin Wonderland

Posted 25 May 2014 - 03:14 PM

I agree that it's not guaranteed that he will produce in the NHL, but all of what I said still stands. Most of this conversation is pretty pointless since said you'd be willing to trade Mantha for Subban, Pietrangelo, etc. and those guys are not going to be traded.

 

In talking about Mantha's NHL potential, though, I think you are talking too generally about probability. If you stick to generalities, I would probably agree with you, but if you need look at Mantha specifically compared to other CHL players that didn't work out.

 

Not to say that size is everything, but it really does matter when transitioning to the NHL. Those that couldn't make the transition are all small players:

 

Justin Azevedo: 5'8"

Corey Locke: 5'10"

Pierre-Marc Bouchard: 5'10"

Simon Gamache: 5'9"

Brendan Shinnimin: 5'10"

Sergei Varlamov: 5'10"

 

Bouchard had several great seasons in the NHL until he got a nasty concussion during the 09-10 season opener. He hasn't been the same since. You should take him off the list. Shinnimin also might be too early to put on there. So, thats just five (or four) duds out of 16 CHL MVPs, and as you said...all were small guys. Things look pretty good for our boy Mantha. 



#39 Dabura

Dabura

    Everydayer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,059 posts
  • Location:In an octopus's garden

Posted 25 May 2014 - 05:19 PM

I wouldn't read too much into Kenny's comment. I do believe he's going to get a pretty fair shot, but, either way, Kenny's not going to say, "Will he have a shot in the fall? Probably not." (See: Alfredsson, Daniel.)

 

But if we want to read into stuff, I think that little Q & A Babs did on the night he watched Mantha play seemed to suggest he's a bit skeptical, because that's just how he is when it comes to this kind of thing.

 

"The NHL is a whole different thing. He'll need to work on his pace. He'll need to learn to always keep his feet moving. You've gotta be real heavy on the puck at the pro level. You've gotta win your board battles, shift after shift after shift, night after night after night - and not against kids, but full-grown men, elite athletes, the best of the best. You've gotta be an everydayer. And while you're learning all this, you're also trying to figure out how to really take care of yourself for the first time in your life. It's a whole new way of life, and it's real easy to get lost in it. Now, having said all that, we've never had a kid like this, someone who's 6'5 and can really put the puck in the net. Maybe that helps speed up his development, maybe it doesn't. We'll just have to wait and see."

 

(That's not an actual quote, but it's pretty close to what he said. I was too lazy to track down the original audio, so I just put on my Generic Babcock Hat there.)

 

Pesonally, I think I'd rather have him start the season in GR and see how he does, unless he has a really, really, really good training camp. What's the risk? ...Versus, if you throw him right into the fire, that could backfire - for him and the team. We need to get as many points as possible, and, if we're being honest and objective, he does need to improve his all-around game. So...expect him to start in GR. (I wouldn't necessarily mind being wrong on this one, of course.)

 

As for maybe putting the feelers out re: his possible trade value...I don't know why you wouldn't at least dip your toes into those waters. It doesn't mean you think any less of Mantha. It doesn't mean "OMG HOLLAND IS SHOPPING MANTHA! FULL STORY @ 10!" It's just, if there's a fantastic opportunity out there, you'd like to know. Right?


Edited by Dabura, 25 May 2014 - 06:44 PM.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#40 LeftWinger

LeftWinger

    42 years in Detroit! Time to spend the rest in paradise!

  • Silver Booster
  • 8,614 posts
  • Location:HART - MI

Posted 25 May 2014 - 06:04 PM

This is not too unexpected...lets add to that a Calder...then a Hart...and then a Conn Smythe... YAY!

 

 

quick note on Jarnkrok...for those of you who don't think he would have left for Sweden, think again.  If Emmerton left for the KHL because he realized he had no place on next years team, what do you think a talent like Jarnkrok would do in the same situation...when he already made mention about going back if he didn't get a promotion soon.  He would have left, he knew it, the scouts knew it, Ken Holland knew it.  Ken Holland traded him for two reasons, to get something in return (which helped us keep the streak alive) and to give Jarnkrok his opportunity to play in the NHL because he wasn't going to be here until 2015-16...case closed.... :P

 

BTW...Mantha = utouchable....he is the best thing to have in this organization since...dare I say, since Fedorov arrived.  (not saying he is the next Fedorov, but he is definitely the hottest prospect since...


Don't Be Jealous, But I Live Here...

www.thinkdunes.com

 

Aww You Mad Bro? Are You Butt Hurt?






Similar Topics Collapse

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users