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Mantha named CHL player of the year


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#41 Rivalred

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 12:03 PM

Folks really should be realistic and see how he develops, less pressure and expectations for the kid would be the best route.
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#42 Jesusberg

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 12:36 PM

When I see "untouchable" next to the name of any prospect, I have to roll my eyes. I'm sorry, but just take a look at draft history from even the last 5-10 years. Check the first 5 names or so, and you'll see some serious to moderate (Schenn brothers) success... then it gets spotty.

For my money, untouchable is the 20-25 year old player who can eat up 25 minutes on the back-end and look comfortable, or the kid scoring 30 goals at that age, or playing 50 games between the pipes and putting up respectable numbers. Potential is potential. "Being the best thing to happen Detroit since" is a relative statement, because there's much better than Mantha out there. Kid's value is at a high right now - If you can package him for someone with a proven track record in their early to mid 20's... why in the world wouldn't you do it?



#43 DickieDunn

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 12:37 PM

Folks really should be realistic and see how he develops, less pressure and expectations for the kid would be the best route.

 

NO!  We have to demand that he score 40 goals and win the Calder, then average 40 goals for the next 12 years while leading the team to at least 5 Cups in his career.  If he doesn't do that, he'll be a total bust.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#44 DickieDunn

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 12:44 PM

When I see "untouchable" next to the name of any prospect, I have to roll my eyes. I'm sorry, but just take a look at draft history from even the last 5-10 years. Check the first 5 names or so, and you'll see some serious to moderate (Schenn brothers) success... then it gets spotty.

For my money, untouchable is the 20-25 year old player who can eat up 25 minutes on the back-end and look comfortable, or the kid scoring 30 goals at that age, or playing 50 games between the pipes and putting up respectable numbers. Potential is potential. "Being the best thing to happen Detroit since" is a relative statement, because there's much better than Mantha out there. Kid's value is at a high right now - If you can package him for someone with a proven track record in their early to mid 20's... why in the world wouldn't you do it?

 

I think a lot of fans see comparisons to a Hall of Fame caliber player, or they read what a prospect could develop into, they don't take into account that most players don't reach their full potential.  Some are complete busts and never see the NHL.  Others have decent careers, but never reach what their top end potential was projected to be-guys like Bonk, Anders Ericsson, Smid, and Upshall.  It's more likely that Mantha puts up Fraznen type numbers than he turn into some perennial All-Star power forward.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#45 darkmanx

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:47 PM

 

I think a lot of fans see comparisons to a Hall of Fame caliber player, or they read what a prospect could develop into, they don't take into account that most players don't reach their full potential.  Some are complete busts and never see the NHL.  Others have decent careers, but never reach what their top end potential was projected to be-guys like Bonk, Anders Ericsson, Smid, and Upshall.  It's more likely that Mantha puts up Fraznen type numbers than he turn into some perennial All-Star power forward.

 

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#46 Buppy

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 10:50 PM

When I see "untouchable" next to the name of any prospect, I have to roll my eyes. I'm sorry, but just take a look at draft history from even the last 5-10 years. Check the first 5 names or so, and you'll see some serious to moderate (Schenn brothers) success... then it gets spotty.

For my money, untouchable is the 20-25 year old player who can eat up 25 minutes on the back-end and look comfortable, or the kid scoring 30 goals at that age, or playing 50 games between the pipes and putting up respectable numbers. Potential is potential. "Being the best thing to happen Detroit since" is a relative statement, because there's much better than Mantha out there. Kid's value is at a high right now - If you can package him for someone with a proven track record in their early to mid 20's... why in the world wouldn't you do it?

That's like saying, "If you can trade 3500 lbs of metal and plastic for a new car...".

 

You can't. You can't even if you "package" it with 5 tons of crap either. You want a proven young player you're going to have to add a lot. Look at the Ryan trade. He's not even a great goal scorer and was already 26. Went for a Mantha-level prospect, plus another good prospect, plus a 1st. 

 

Aside from maybe a few overzealous fans here, no one is anointing him the second coming. And I think you and Dickie are over-valuing his trade value just as much as they are over-valuing his potential. His value may be higher than it's been in the past, but I'd say it's unlikely as high as it will get. Even moderate success in GR (or with the Wings) would move him up. 

 

Obviously, no one is literally untouchable. I assume when anyone says that it just means they don't believe said player would bring a worthy return. For me, Mantha, Sheahan, Sproul, Mrazek, and Pulkkinen are untouchable right now. Their skillsets are mostly unique in our prospect pool (Pulks is a little redundant). You'd have to really blow me away with an offer to get any of them.



#47 kipwinger

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 11:58 AM

That's like saying, "If you can trade 3500 lbs of metal and plastic for a new car...".

 

You can't. You can't even if you "package" it with 5 tons of crap either. You want a proven young player you're going to have to add a lot. Look at the Ryan trade. He's not even a great goal scorer and was already 26. Went for a Mantha-level prospect, plus another good prospect, plus a 1st. 

 

Aside from maybe a few overzealous fans here, no one is anointing him the second coming. And I think you and Dickie are over-valuing his trade value just as much as they are over-valuing his potential. His value may be higher than it's been in the past, but I'd say it's unlikely as high as it will get. Even moderate success in GR (or with the Wings) would move him up. 

 

Obviously, no one is literally untouchable. I assume when anyone says that it just means they don't believe said player would bring a worthy return. For me, Mantha, Sheahan, Sproul, Mrazek, and Pulkkinen are untouchable right now. Their skillsets are mostly unique in our prospect pool (Pulks is a little redundant). You'd have to really blow me away with an offer to get any of them.

 

I agree with your overall point, but Silferberg wasn't a "Mantha-level prospect".  He was drafted 39th overall and his professional scoring totals weren't even as good as Calle Jarnkrok in both the SEL and AHL. 

 

But hyperbole aside, I agree.  Nobody is going to take Mantha for a young, proven, NHL goal scorer.


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Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

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#48 Buppy

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:15 PM

 

I agree with your overall point, but Silferberg wasn't a "Mantha-level prospect".  He was drafted 39th overall and his professional scoring totals weren't even as good as Calle Jarnkrok in both the SEL and AHL. 

 

But hyperbole aside, I agree.  Nobody is going to take Mantha for a young, proven, NHL goal scorer.

Maybe not the same offensive ceiling, but he's more of a two-way player and more importantly had already had a decent rookie season in the NHL. I'd say they're pretty similar in value. (Maybe Silfverberg has dropped a little now, since he didn't show much improvement in his second year.)



#49 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 11:56 AM

 

I think a lot of fans see comparisons to a Hall of Fame caliber player, or they read what a prospect could develop into, they don't take into account that most players don't reach their full potential.  Some are complete busts and never see the NHL.  Others have decent careers, but never reach what their top end potential was projected to be-guys like Bonk, Anders Ericsson, Smid, and Upshall.  It's more likely that Mantha puts up Fraznen type numbers than he turn into some perennial All-Star power forward.

Mantha is bigger, uses his size and skates hard.  He coasts a bit, but he's in position watching the play.  When the time comes, he turns on the jets.  And anyone, even in Jr, who scores 81 goals in 81 games during regular season and playoffs needs to be on our team in the top 6 and the PP.


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