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Redwings great R/H D men.............?


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#1 Andy Pred 48

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 12:53 PM

So we are looking for that great r/h shot from the blueline but who have we actually had that has been a standout in that role during the past 20 years. Rafalski was a high point scorer and maybe the only one that stands out. Cheli was at the end of his career and not putting up big numbers during his stint on the Wings blueline. So maybe as far back as Murph in the late 90's as the last one. So why is it all of a sudden a top situation for the brass to address? 

I say we go with the best available D man we can get and wait for Sproul and Marchenko to come thru. Please dont waste money on a guy who's only produced once so far in his NHL stint.


Edited by Andy Pred 48, 02 June 2014 - 03:03 PM.

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#2 GMRwings1983

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 01:20 PM

If it means Babcock and Holland won't be bringing in players like Sammy and Williams just to have a right handed idiot on the powerplay, then I'm all for it.  

 

This organization lacks right handed shooters, period.  It's not just defensemen.  Having one on the point isn't as important, imo as having a good one on the slot. like Shanny and Hull used to be.  We need a good right handed winger.  


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#3 Dabura

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 01:31 PM

We're dangerously close to not having a single righty on the roster. That's...pretty silly.


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#4 GMRwings1983

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 01:38 PM

We're dangerously close to not having a single righty on the roster. That's...pretty silly.

 

McGrattan is a righty, come to think of it.    


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#5 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 01:44 PM

I wouldnt worry to much, I think Holland will sign Boyle for a reasonable price but way too many years rather than sign Niskanen.
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#6 Dabura

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 01:55 PM

McGrattan is a righty, come to think of it.    

 

And Orr, Westgarth, and Parros.


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#7 joesuffP

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 02:07 PM

Boyle seems like a red wings guy and sharks will be looking for a change. Our blue line needs another veteran presence especially on the PP. Somebody who at least looks like he knows what he's doing when he has the puck

#8 kipwinger

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 02:11 PM

I saw we go with the best available D man we can get and wait for Sproul and Marchenko to come thru. Please dont waste money on a guy who's only produced once so far in his NHL stint.

 

 I assume this is in reference to Niskanen, who's third best season (26 pts.) has only been bested by Kronwall and Quincey.  We'd have killed for even that amount of production from out back end this year.  Kinda hard to suggest he's not worth acquiring when his mediocre seasons haven't been topped by two thirds of our existing defense corps. 

 

I'm also not sure why everyone is so against signing a guy who's just entering his prime.  It may come as a surprise, but our strategy of having guys who are too old to lead a team to the Cup augmented by guys too young to lead a team to the cup, is probably not going to work.  We have no high-end forwards between Franzen and Nyquist, or high-end defensemen between Kronwall and Dekeyser.  You can't win if you don't have any first rate players between the ages of 24 and 33.  You just can't. 

 

And by the time all the young guys are ready to take over, the old guys will be WAY past it and it will be a wash anyway. 


Edited by kipwinger, 02 June 2014 - 02:15 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

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#9 rick zombo

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 02:31 PM

 

 I assume this is in reference to Niskanen, who's third best season (26 pts.) has only been bested by Kronwall and Quincey.  We'd have killed for even that amount of production from out back end this year.  Kinda hard to suggest he's not worth acquiring when his mediocre seasons haven't been topped by two thirds of our existing defense corps. 

 

I'm also not sure why everyone is so against signing a guy who's just entering his prime.  It may come as a surprise, but our strategy of having guys who are too old to lead a team to the Cup augmented by guys too young to lead a team to the cup, is probably not going to work.  We have no high-end forwards between Franzen and Nyquist, or high-end defensemen between Kronwall and Dekeyser.  You can't win if you don't have any first rate players between the ages of 24 and 33.  You just can't. 

 

And by the time all the young guys are ready to take over, the old guys will be WAY past it and it will be a wash anyway. 

 

This is why Holland will sign Callahan, Niskanen, and trade for Kesler. Solidify the leadership group for the next 10 years. 


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#10 Jedi

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 02:32 PM

 
 I assume this is in reference to Niskanen, who's third best season (26 pts.) has only been bested by Kronwall and Quincey.  We'd have killed for even that amount of production from out back end this year.  Kinda hard to suggest he's not worth acquiring when his mediocre seasons haven't been topped by two thirds of our existing defense corps. 
 
I'm also not sure why everyone is so against signing a guy who's just entering his prime.  It may come as a surprise, but our strategy of having guys who are too old to lead a team to the Cup augmented by guys too young to lead a team to the cup, is probably not going to work.  We have no high-end forwards between Franzen and Nyquist, or high-end defensemen between Kronwall and Dekeyser.  You can't win if you don't have any first rate players between the ages of 24 and 33.  You just can't. 
 
And by the time all the young guys are ready to take over, the old guys will be WAY past it and it will be a wash anyway. 


I'm fine with signing Niskanen, if he can be brought in at the right price. He's the best UFA dman in a pretty thin class, so odds are that his offers will be vastly inflated.

At the right price/length I'm sure that most LGW'ers would want him on the roster. But with numbers that are being mentioned (higher than Z's cap hit, in more than one article I've seen), and at a long term deal, I might say pass and move on.

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#11 kipwinger

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 02:52 PM

I'm fine with signing Niskanen, if he can be brought in at the right price. He's the best UFA dman in a pretty thin class, so odds are that his offers will be vastly inflated.

At the right price/length I'm sure that most LGW'ers would want him on the roster. But with numbers that are being mentioned (higher than Z's cap hit, in more than one article I've seen), and at a long term deal, I might say pass and move on.

 

Could you link me to that article?  I seriously hadn't seen anyone talking that high.  I agree, if that's the asking price I'd pass too but like I said, I hadn't seen anyone suggest he'd make over 6 mil.  Based on his numbers and comparable signings in recent memory I figured he'd get 5.5 at the highest and probably a little less if he got the right term (e.g. Wisniewski, Erhoff, Bieksa, Hamhuis, Girardi, J. Johnson, etc. etc. etc.). 

 

Not that I don't believe you, but I can't imagine why anyone would think he's make over six million dollars considering there's absolutely no precedent for someone with his age, history of production, and developmental ceiling, getting paid that much. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#12 Andy Pred 48

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 03:21 PM

Kenny will not pay the price that Niskanen will end up getting no way on earth!  This is why i think ( i dont agree) he'll go after Boyle on a short term deal.  I also think that he will try and trade for an upgrade on the blueline as he may get a better player by going that route anyway. 

My own take on it, a cheeky offer sheet to Justin Schultz and offer Matt Greene would take to come home and play the vet role on the bottom pairing for his final years 2-3 year deal.


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#13 nawein

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 03:41 PM

 
 I assume this is in reference to Niskanen, who's third best season (26 pts.) has only been bested by Kronwall and Quincey.  We'd have killed for even that amount of production from out back end this year.  Kinda hard to suggest he's not worth acquiring when his mediocre seasons haven't been topped by two thirds of our existing defense corps. 
 
I'm also not sure why everyone is so against signing a guy who's just entering his prime.  It may come as a surprise, but our strategy of having guys who are too old to lead a team to the Cup augmented by guys too young to lead a team to the cup, is probably not going to work.  We have no high-end forwards between Franzen and Nyquist, or high-end defensemen between Kronwall and Dekeyser.  You can't win if you don't have any first rate players between the ages of 24 and 33.  You just can't. 
 
And by the time all the young guys are ready to take over, the old guys will be WAY past it and it will be a wash anyway. 


I don't think anyone here is against signing a guy just entering his prime. And no doubt a team of old guys isn't going to work, but I think the issue is with the player in question. Sure there's an argument for signing Niskanen and I understand it. I would love to have him. But I don't think he's an all star number one build your d corps around him defenseman and that's what he's probably going to get paid like in a month. Basically a team if past their prime players won't win a cup, but neither will a team who has good players getting paid like great players. Not in a salary cap world.

#14 number9

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 04:48 PM

Well last time we won we had Raffi

#15 kipwinger

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 05:14 PM

I don't think anyone here is against signing a guy just entering his prime. And no doubt a team of old guys isn't going to work, but I think the issue is with the player in question. Sure there's an argument for signing Niskanen and I understand it. I would love to have him. But I don't think he's an all star number one build your d corps around him defenseman and that's what he's probably going to get paid like in a month. Basically a team if past their prime players won't win a cup, but neither will a team who has good players getting paid like great players. Not in a salary cap world.

 

Nobody suggested he'd be a number one.  Kenny said we need a right shooting top four defenseman.  He didn't say we needed a franchise defenseman to build around for the next 10-20 years. 

 

And as I mentioned earlier, I don't know where this idea that Niskanen is going to get "paid like a great player" comes from.  Nothing indicates this aside from pure speculation.  Give me one example of a puck moving d-man who hasn't scored 50 pts. but makes 6+ million dollars.  The reason why you probably can't think of one is because it almost never happens.  Bouwmeester is the only exception I can think of.  And I'm not sure why people would think Niskanen would get paid like Bouwmeester when he's far more comparable to Wisniewski, Ehrhoff, Bieksa, Vlasic, Hamhuis, Girardi, Johnson, etc. and none of them make first pair money. 

 

Niskanen isn't McDonagh, Pietrangelo, Doughty, or Subban.  They'll get paid like franchise d-man...he won't.  High end he'll get paid 5.5 million a year, and he's worth that in today's market. 


 

This is why Holland will sign Callahan, Niskanen, and trade for Kesler. Solidify the leadership group for the next 10 years. 

 

I wish.  Well, except for Callahan.  I love his attitude and all, but I'm not interested in spending that kind of money on a guy whose best qualities are his intangibles. 


Edited by kipwinger, 02 June 2014 - 05:16 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#16 nawein

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 06:18 PM

 
Nobody suggested he'd be a number one.  Kenny said we need a right shooting top four defenseman.  He didn't say we needed a franchise defenseman to build around for the next 10-20 years. 
 
And as I mentioned earlier, I don't know where this idea that Niskanen is going to get "paid like a great player" comes from.  Nothing indicates this aside from pure speculation.  Give me one example of a puck moving d-man who hasn't scored 50 pts. but makes 6+ million dollars.  The reason why you probably can't think of one is because it almost never happens.  Bouwmeester is the only exception I can think of.  And I'm not sure why people would think Niskanen would get paid like Bouwmeester when he's far more comparable to Wisniewski, Ehrhoff, Bieksa, Vlasic, Hamhuis, Girardi, Johnson, etc. and none of them make first pair money. 
 
Niskanen isn't McDonagh, Pietrangelo, Doughty, or Subban.  They'll get paid like franchise d-man...he won't.  High end he'll get paid 5.5 million a year, and he's worth that in today's market. 

 
I wish.  Well, except for Callahan.  I love his attitude and all, but I'm not interested in spending that kind of money on a guy whose best qualities are his intangibles. 


If he goes for 5.5 and we don't get him I'll be just as pissed as you. But if he goes for the around 7 I think he will, then no thanks. I just think he'll get paid more than you think he'll get paid because everyone wants a top 4 right handed dman and he's the best on the market, going into his prime, coming off a career year. He's definitely worth 5.5, I just don't want us to pay a massive price tag for the guy.

#17 Euro_Twins

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 06:31 PM

 

Nobody suggested he'd be a number one.  Kenny said we need a right shooting top four defenseman.  He didn't say we needed a franchise defenseman to build around for the next 10-20 years. 

 

And as I mentioned earlier, I don't know where this idea that Niskanen is going to get "paid like a great player" comes from.  Nothing indicates this aside from pure speculation.  Give me one example of a puck moving d-man who hasn't scored 50 pts. but makes 6+ million dollars.  The reason why you probably can't think of one is because it almost never happens.  Bouwmeester is the only exception I can think of.  And I'm not sure why people would think Niskanen would get paid like Bouwmeester when he's far more comparable to Wisniewski, Ehrhoff, Bieksa, Vlasic, Hamhuis, Girardi, Johnson, etc. and none of them make first pair money. 

 

Niskanen isn't McDonagh, Pietrangelo, Doughty, or Subban.  They'll get paid like franchise d-man...he won't.  High end he'll get paid 5.5 million a year, and he's worth that in today's market. 


 

I wish.  Well, except for Callahan.  I love his attitude and all, but I'm not interested in spending that kind of money on a guy whose best qualities are his intangibles. 

 

 

Suter was offered between 7.5-8 million cap hit contract for 13+ years (has never hit 50 points) by many teams solely because he was the only good dman available, when the pickings are slim, and a lot of teams have extra cap space everyone is in a bidding war and prices get driven up. It is quite reasonable to think at least a couple gms will throw an absurd contract his way, philly for sure i can see doing it, ottawa probably could, Washington, Vancouver, Tampa... lots of teams are looking for a top 4 dman and not much is available, I believe kenny will give him a fair offer if he does indeed join in on the fun, something in the 5-6mil/year range, 5-6 years. Ultimately he will sign elsewhere for around 6.5-7/year for 7 years



#18 kipwinger

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 06:42 PM

 

 

Suter was offered between 7.5-8 million cap hit contract for 13+ years (has never hit 50 points) by many teams solely because he was the only good dman available, when the pickings are slim, and a lot of teams have extra cap space everyone is in a bidding war and prices get driven up. It is quite reasonable to think at least a couple gms will throw an absurd contract his way, philly for sure i can see doing it, ottawa probably could, Washington, Vancouver, Tampa... lots of teams are looking for a top 4 dman and not much is available, I believe kenny will give him a fair offer if he does indeed join in on the fun, something in the 5-6mil/year range, 5-6 years. Ultimately he will sign elsewhere for around 6.5-7/year for 7 years

 

Suter was offered that much money because he's a franchise defenseman on every team except the one he was already on.  He was offered that money because he's one of the three or four best defensemen in the league.   If you think Suter and Niskanen are comparable I don't know what to tell you. 

 

Edit:  Ok, you guys have got to be kidding.  7 million dollars? You think he's going to jump from 2.3 to 7 million dollars a year? First of all, who even has 7 million dollars to spend on a second pair defenseman?  We've got more cap room than just about any competitive team and we don't have 7 million dollars to spend on a second pair defenseman.  Secondly, NOBODY...ever...in the history of hockey has made that much money with Niskanen's track record.  Never ever ever ever.  Why are you all so sure he's going to be the one to set some kind of overpayment record? 

 

It may come as a surprise, but there have been weak free agents classes before.  It's not like the top UFA in each previous weak year signed contract out of proportion with all reality. 


Edited by kipwinger, 02 June 2014 - 06:56 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#19 Euro_Twins

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 06:56 PM

 

Suter was offered that much money because he's a franchise defenseman on every team except the one he was already on.  He was offered that money because he's one of the three or four best defensemen in the league.   If you think Suter and Niskanen are comparable I don't know what to tell you. 

 

I compared the markets not the players, I just mentioned Suter has never once hit 50 points either. If you think Suter is worth $12 million/year, then I don't know what to tell you, he will hav a very high cap hit until he is 39. It was very much overpayment, Chicago offered even more of an overpayment, and we offered slightly less of one, I am not saying I don't want him here, if it were between Suter and Niskanen, I would absolutely take Suter, his cap hit and term any day without question over niskanen, even if he was willing to play for us for free. Yes Suter is elite, yes he is tops in the league, but he is still being over payed, and that's how it is now. If you don't believe me that Niskanen will get more than he is worth, go look at other contracts that have been handed out, Weber was given a contract that will end up crippling nashville, but they had to match it. Look at Clarkson, Clowe, Bickell, Perry, Parise, Letang, Phaneuf, and half the players on edmonton. Overpaying has become commonplace, because if you don't someone else will


don't forget every philly player too



#20 kipwinger

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 06:59 PM

 

I compared the markets not the players, I just mentioned Suter has never once hit 50 points either. If you think Suter is worth $12 million/year, then I don't know what to tell you, he will hav a very high cap hit until he is 39. It was very much overpayment, Chicago offered even more of an overpayment, and we offered slightly less of one, I am not saying I don't want him here, if it were between Suter and Niskanen, I would absolutely take Suter, his cap hit and term any day without question over niskanen, even if he was willing to play for us for free. Yes Suter is elite, yes he is tops in the league, but he is still being over payed, and that's how it is now. If you don't believe me that Niskanen will get more than he is worth, go look at other contracts that have been handed out, Weber was given a contract that will end up crippling nashville, but they had to match it. Look at Clarkson, Clowe, Bickell, Perry, Parise, Letang, Phaneuf, and half the players on edmonton. Overpaying has become commonplace, because if you don't someone else will


don't forget every philly player too

 

Ryan Suter is one of the premier two way defensemen in the league and his cap hit is 7.5 million a year, not 12.  You're just jooking stats to make a point.  He's getting paid exactly what he deserves and so will Niskanen. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 






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