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Dan Boyle's rights traded to the Islanders…..


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#41 krsmith17

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 10:11 AM

Were you trying to prove my points or did you do that accidently?... Yes, he improves our team, he improves our puck movement from the back end, and no prospect can provide everything that he can immediately. Every one of our prospects (no matter how highly we, or scouts view them) are at the very least, two years away from being impact players. How are our young players not allowed to play/develop? That is exactly what the American Hockey League is for, to develop talent. Do you think Nyquist or Tatar could have stepped in and made such an impact if they weren't "over ripe"? Definitely not. I personally like the way the Wings management team do things and I think most of our prospects (including Sproul, Marchenko, Backman, Jurco and Pulkkinen) would benefit from another year in Grand Rapids. We don't draft high, so we rarely get a talent that is rushed into the NHL right away, and I think Mantha should spend a year down in GR as well.

Anyway, back on Boyle, no he wouldn't be my first choice but he is an upgrade to our current defensive unit, so I would definitely welcome him...

As for Carlson, I would absolutely love to have this guy in a Red Wings jersey but that just isn't going to happen. What would you give up to get him because a package of Tatar, Ferraro, Almquist and a first definitely isn't going to get it done. It will be more like, Nyquist, Mantha, Sproul, a first and probably another draft pick or prospect as well. I think that is over payment and I would rather keep Nyquist, develop Mantha and Sproul into the players I think they can be, and get another couple decent prospects with those picks. That is just my opinion though...



#42 Dabura

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 10:46 AM

The best argument against signing Boyle for more than one season is that, barring injury, only one of our kids is going to get a legitimate shot over that span of time, assuming Smith isn't traded. I can respect that. At the same time, you have to weigh it against pushing for the Cup. It's not that I don't think we can push for the Cup with a couple of kids on the back end. I just think it's unlikely, versus what we might get from a  name talent. Yeah, Boyle isn't the player he once was, but he's still valuable.


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#43 GoWings!

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 11:34 AM

Signing veteran defensemen to help this team get back on a winning track can't hurt the cause. We are gonna have a whole bunch of young players in the lineup in a few years and I doubt they'll bring what Dats and Z have been able to bring us the past 10 years. Why not add some pieces that could help us for that goal(as opposed to some playoff streak that may end up ending a lot sooner than later when Dats and Z are gone) while there's still some Cup winning talent left in these 2 before they eventually retire? We saw what the Grand Rapids can do in regular season but what they couldn't do in the post. So what's wrong with mixing in some youth, bringing in a few solid players with the cap space we are freeing up and making another run for a Cup while guys like Kronwall, Z and Dats still have gas in the tank? I see a pretty good Ranger team representing the Eastern Conference and I really feel we can get to that level with some good signings, trades and GR call ups mixed together. Rangers are not a dynasty in my eyes and they were able to benefit from a couple of good 3rd and 4th line pickups, speed and a great goalie(while their fa signings like Richards and Nash and trades for St. Louis are not the main reason for their success).

#44 Rivalred

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 05:04 PM

I hate that term yes, it's a business but hockey is also a sport loved and done by humans not robots! Boyle gave the Sharks a lot so they owe him a trade to a team where he might want to sign. Humans >>> Business!I hope he signs so Holland won't do something crazy


Yeah, I agree human beings should be held above the aspect of money, but sadly it isn't like that.
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#45 wings4thecup06

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 05:40 PM

the whole point of bringing a guy on board like Boyle for 1 to 2 years is precisely to bridge the gap so that when the kids come up on the back end, they're not as overwhelmed and outplayed as they might be if they were brought up now. 

 

IMO, I think they should just go with it and bring up XO for next year, but in reality, signing Boyle for say $5m for 1 year isn't going to do any harm. 


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#46 Echolalia

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 07:11 PM

There's no guarantee that Quincey will be a Wing next season, and I'm personally not comfortable with Lashoff's play in a top 6 role. We could pick up Boyle (or whomever) for a year to cover Quincey should he leave, and bring up a kid from GR to win Lashoff's role, if they can take it.
No, it's not a move that will put the Wings over the top to win a Stanley Cup, but it will fill a hole and buy more time for some of our prospects to continue developing, while also allowing at least one of them to fight for a full time position next year.

#47 Richdg

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 09:18 PM

The common theme by those in favor signing Boyle is to by time. buy time for what? Datsyuk to retire? because that is what is really going to happen. Think it through for the next few years. Datsyuk has 3 years left on his contract and is getting upset BTW.... So we bring in Boyle for 2 years. Then we play a rookie. Now Datsyuk leaves. Rookies is in his soph. year. Again the talent level is dropping faster than we can replace it. Now we are 3 more years out and still not a SC contender. That is if EVERYTHING goes our way. Add a couple injuries or have guys fail to develop and we are screwed. Yes, this is a bunch of unknowns. But here is the thing about unknowns (prospects): other teams like them.

Do we right now have the ability to make a deal for a true top 4 Dman that can be here for another 8-10 years, without destroying our future? yes we do.



#48 number9

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 09:54 PM

The common theme by those in favor signing Boyle is to by time. buy time for what? Datsyuk to retire? because that is what is really going to happen. Think it through for the next few years. Datsyuk has 3 years left on his contract and is getting upset BTW.... So we bring in Boyle for 2 years. Then we play a rookie. Now Datsyuk leaves. Rookies is in his soph. year. Again the talent level is dropping faster than we can replace it. Now we are 3 more years out and still not a SC contender. That is if EVERYTHING goes our way. Add a couple injuries or have guys fail to develop and we are screwed. Yes, this is a bunch of unknowns. But here is the thing about unknowns (prospects): other teams like them.
Do we right now have the ability to make a deal for a true top 4 Dman that can be here for another 8-10 years, without destroying our future? yes we do.


Would Love to see the article where Dats says he's upset

#49 Jesusberg

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 09:57 PM

The common theme by those in favor signing Boyle is to by time. buy time for what? Datsyuk to retire? because that is what is really going to happen. Think it through for the next few years. Datsyuk has 3 years left on his contract and is getting upset BTW.... So we bring in Boyle for 2 years. Then we play a rookie. Now Datsyuk leaves. Rookies is in his soph. year. Again the talent level is dropping faster than we can replace it. Now we are 3 more years out and still not a SC contender. That is if EVERYTHING goes our way. Add a couple injuries or have guys fail to develop and we are screwed. Yes, this is a bunch of unknowns. But here is the thing about unknowns (prospects): other teams like them.

Do we right now have the ability to make a deal for a true top 4 Dman that can be here for another 8-10 years, without destroying our future? yes we do.

 

I have to disagree. Considering the deals that have been rejected (reportedly) by other GM's for a top 4 defender, I'm not sure Detroit lands a guy without blowing up the prospect pipeline. Who are you willing to move? Tatar and Nyquist? Mantha? If Detroit could land a top 4 guy, moving a package of say... Smith, Pulkkinen/Frk/Athanasiou, Jensen and a 1st/2nd, perhaps, would be fine with me. But who are they realistically going to get for that package?

Honestly, if Detroit could pry Bogosian from Winnipeg by sending them Smith, Helm, another prospect and a 1st, I would do it in a second. However, I think that last player would be Mrazek (they could use a goaltender). If that last prospect is someone like a Pulu or Frk, I make the move. But it's likely a solid piece like Mrazek, and I'm not willing to give that much up, and I'm not sure how many other Wings fans are as well.

I just don't think there are many trade options out there that meet the criteria of getting a high quality, top 4 defender without overpaying for him.


Edited by Jesusberg, 06 June 2014 - 10:01 PM.


#50 wings4thecup06

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 06:00 AM

 

I have to disagree. Considering the deals that have been rejected (reportedly) by other GM's for a top 4 defender, I'm not sure Detroit lands a guy without blowing up the prospect pipeline. Who are you willing to move? Tatar and Nyquist? Mantha? If Detroit could land a top 4 guy, moving a package of say... Smith, Pulkkinen/Frk/Athanasiou, Jensen and a 1st/2nd, perhaps, would be fine with me. But who are they realistically going to get for that package?

Honestly, if Detroit could pry Bogosian from Winnipeg by sending them Smith, Helm, another prospect and a 1st, I would do it in a second. However, I think that last player would be Mrazek (they could use a goaltender). If that last prospect is someone like a Pulu or Frk, I make the move. But it's likely a solid piece like Mrazek, and I'm not willing to give that much up, and I'm not sure how many other Wings fans are as well.

I just don't think there are many trade options out there that meet the criteria of getting a high quality, top 4 defender without overpaying for him.

 

But that kind of deal for say Bogosion would be mental. Like you've said, any deal for a really really high end player is going to decimate the prospect pool we have which is half the reason why things look promising. I agree with you, we don't live in the days where you could deal a bag of pucks for Zdeno Chara with Mike Milbury.

 

I'm prepared to be patient for the Wings to get back to the top, because these things come in cycles and you can't dominate all the time now. Yes I'd like to see KH pull the trigger on some deals, but only if they make sense. There is no one single player who will put us over the top. It takes a collection and I think we've got the right kids and the right veterans, we just need to shore up the back end a bit and get some more size IMO. I know it's frustrating, we're used to winning, to dominating, to having a playoff spot locked up by late february. But I'd rather be where we are now and then build ourselves back up than bottoming out for a couple of years. Being competitive and in the hunt is always entertaining and this season was an absolute roller coaster. 

 

To clarify, I'm not saying I want every season to be like last, I'm saying that I can accept it might take a couple more years for us to be back at the top. But who knows, if the Rangers can make the Cup final, why can't we? 


Edited by wings4thecup06, 07 June 2014 - 06:01 AM.

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#51 LeftWinger

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 08:16 AM

I wouldn't be opposed to Boyle for a year or 2...

 

Let Q walk, trade Kindl and Lashoff for a 2nd rounder...trade Helm, Smith, 1st for Kesler...sign Boyle, sign Morris, rotate Marchenko and XO in the 6th, 7th spot...

 

 

Kronwall - Ericsson

Dekeyser - Boyle

Marchenko - Morris

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#52 DickieDunn

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:25 AM

They won't have a rookie as the reserve.  It would be stupid to have a kid who could be playing major minutes in Grand Rapids sitting in the press box on a regular basis.  you see that from a bottom feeder occasionally, but Detroit won't do it.  Lashoff will be kept as the #7.  Kindl and Lashoff together wouldn't come close to bringing a second rounder anyway.  Maybe a 4th.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#53 Richdg

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 10:57 AM

Just using him as an example. Would we be a better team with Nyquist or Carlson? With Carlson. Again an example. Now would nyquist alone get a guy like Carlson? Nope. It would tae a little more than that-prospect and a pick. Now go one step further. Are we better with Boyle and Nyquist or Carlson and say Moulson/Callahan/vanek/Vrbata/etc..... In both case the team is better with the later.



#54 SwedeLundin77

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:25 AM

Shame, I could have seen him as a solid 1-2 year stop-gap and mentor for the younger guys to mature under.  Than once he is done, the younger guys are ready for a bigger piece of the action.  I guess he could still make his way here, could be payback for Nabokov.



#55 luvmnger

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 12:04 PM

being a GM is a hard life of decisions. staying competitive is the primary goal. improving each year over the last. the decisions to "go for it" can cause long term consequences that can set a team back for many years if chosen poorly.

ask the sharks about signing joe. some would consider him to be the " guy that changes everything"

its all about percentages/chemistry/role play. a team of all-stars can win...but can they win it all?

larry murphy was considered a wash out in toronto...hated by the fans...fills role in detroit and wins.

point is....boyle can be a cog in the machine..."not the one", but a decisive role player.

until nyquist/tatar arrived, the redwings have been a team with a few stars...and a pack of mid-level guys. they need to shed a few middling players and upgrade slightly on each position.

is almquist/sproul/marchenko/ouellet better than kindl?

is boyle/niskanen/markov better than lashoff?

once you determine this to be true...you then weigh the variables. cost, trade, chemistry of position in system. would niskanen be a positive ( for the money) in a young team, being the go-to guy to bring outlet passes, run the 2nd powerplay? or would markov suit that position better? of course we can sit back and say yea...niskanen all day....but would that be worth it? younger guys would have to wait, be traded, or leave the wings for euro.

 

i have decided to back away from stressing about moves the GM makes...the GM is doing what he can with what he can.

i wanted OEL 5 years ago...i wish eaves wouldnt have been traded....i wanted burmistrov on a wing with pav...i wished we kept brunner.....i think almquist could be a great offensive guy....blah blah blah.

it doesnt matter what i do, say, or wish. our gm will do what he thinks can work. we have to trust ken in his decisions just like we trust pavel with the puck.

we have a great GM running the wings...he may be controvercial with some decisions ( see: cleary) but we dont know the locker room/office/payroll/personalitys, like he does.

all i know is...we have never tanked a season to get the #1 draft pick. there is honor in life and being a wings fan, i hold that one in my pocket. ( im looking at you chicago/pittsburgh) thats my idea of a team buying the cup. (personally i think the first team out of playoffs gets #1 pick.= no more tanked seasons) EVER.

finally...my overall opinion is that, dont trade the kids unless its almost a sure thing, boyle might be ok, niskanen might be great, kesler is a cancer, stasny would be epic. monster is good by me, ciao sammy, gonna miss you bert, cleary who?, quincey/kindl...well...you coulda shoulda woulda. and last but not least... prepare for mantha!


Dino Ciccarelli will always be #1

#56 krsmith17

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 12:21 PM

Hey luvmnger, I wish I could "like" that post multiple times. Well said. I don't necessarily agree with every single little detail but definitely agree with the overall idea there.



#57 DeGraa55

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 02:18 PM

being a GM is a hard life of decisions. staying competitive is the primary goal. improving each year over the last. the decisions to "go for it" can cause long term consequences that can set a team back for many years if chosen poorly.
ask the sharks about signing joe. some would consider him to be the " guy that changes everything"
its all about percentages/chemistry/role play. a team of all-stars can win...but can they win it all?
larry murphy was considered a wash out in toronto...hated by the fans...fills role in detroit and wins.
point is....boyle can be a cog in the machine..."not the one", but a decisive role player.
until nyquist/tatar arrived, the redwings have been a team with a few stars...and a pack of mid-level guys. they need to shed a few middling players and upgrade slightly on each position.
is almquist/sproul/marchenko/ouellet better than kindl?
is boyle/niskanen/markov better than lashoff?
once you determine this to be true...you then weigh the variables. cost, trade, chemistry of position in system. would niskanen be a positive ( for the money) in a young team, being the go-to guy to bring outlet passes, run the 2nd powerplay? or would markov suit that position better? of course we can sit back and say yea...niskanen all day....but would that be worth it? younger guys would have to wait, be traded, or leave the wings for euro.
 
i have decided to back away from stressing about moves the GM makes...the GM is doing what he can with what he can.
i wanted OEL 5 years ago...i wish eaves wouldnt have been traded....i wanted burmistrov on a wing with pav...i wished we kept brunner.....i think almquist could be a great offensive guy....blah blah blah.
it doesnt matter what i do, say, or wish. our gm will do what he thinks can work. we have to trust ken in his decisions just like we trust pavel with the puck.
we have a great GM running the wings...he may be controvercial with some decisions ( see: cleary) but we dont know the locker room/office/payroll/personalitys, like he does.
all i know is...we have never tanked a season to get the #1 draft pick. there is honor in life and being a wings fan, i hold that one in my pocket. ( im looking at you chicago/pittsburgh) thats my idea of a team buying the cup. (personally i think the first team out of playoffs gets #1 pick.= no more tanked seasons) EVER.
finally...my overall opinion is that, dont trade the kids unless its almost a sure thing, boyle might be ok, niskanen might be great, kesler is a cancer, stasny would be epic. monster is good by me, ciao sammy, gonna miss you bert, cleary who?, quincey/kindl...well...you coulda shoulda woulda. and last but not least... prepare for mantha!


The draft lottery makes it a tad better but ucant have playoff teams with top picks. That's how the rich get richer. Parody is a good thing in sports. Look at the playoffs this year other then the wings series pretty much every series was absolutely awesome to watch.

#58 Richdg

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 04:19 PM

Now let me be clear about somethings. I am not a Boyle hater. he has had a nice long career. What I am is a guy that loves to win SC's! To me that is the true measuring stick. Not just making it to the PO's. Which would you guys rather have? make it to the playoffs for 5 straight years and no SC's, OR making it to the PO's 3 out of 5 years and 1 SC? Again, the later is what I prefer.

Now prospects. Most that want to sign Boyle are saying "sign him to allow the prospects to develop". That is all fine and dandy, but you are forgeting 2 very important things. 1. History shows only 1 out 5 guys ever make it to the NHL. So out of the Oullett, Sproul, Marchenko, jensen group, we might have 1 good/great NHL player someday. 2. This might even be more important. History shows that forever whatever reasons, Dmen take longer to develop. Look at our current BL. It didn't click for Ericsson untill 2 years ago when he was 28. Kindl is 26 and it still hasn't clicked. Smith turns 25 this summer and he is still trying to make it. Now there are always exemptions to every rule. maybe one of our young prospects is it. But history says that it will be 4-6 more years for anyone of the Oullett, Sproul, Marchenko, jensen group makes it.

Now what does this mean? Well, the 4 guys we are talking about are not guys to step in today. A better way to look at that group is, those guys are potential replacements for Kronwall and Ericsson down the road. The problem is, they only have 2 more years that they can go down to GR and play. In the meantime, there are-to use a Datsyuk paraphrase: "no new stars" being added to the blueline from the minors anytime soon.



#59 WorkingOvertime

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 04:24 PM

I would like Boyle for a year or two, but not for a 4th/5th round pick. Also, he may want a longer contract than the Wings could/should offer.



#60 DickieDunn

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 04:42 PM

The Wings aren't in a position to need a small piece.  Adding Boyle and Penner or another lower level free agent forward won't make them that much better.  Moulson or Vanek plus a higher level D wound't get them over the hump either.  At this point, regardless of where Zetterberg and Datsyuk are in their careers, the only two good options are either using the youth to trade for 2 top flight players, better than the guys in free agency, or letting the young guys develop.  That includes Kindl and Lashoff staying, starting the year witha  rookie on the 3rd pair, and giving Smith an extended shot at a top 4 role, and using Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, and Jurco a scoring line players along with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Weiss, and one other guy to fill out the top 3 lines.  Then roll out a checking line of Miller-Helm-Abdelkader, or use Helm or Abdelkader on the 3rd line and plug Glendening or Andersson into the 4th line.


Edited by DickieDunn, 07 June 2014 - 04:43 PM.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!






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