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Dan Boyle's rights traded to the Islanders…..


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#121 kipwinger

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 01:18 PM

He's not ripe!

 

Neither was Jurco...or Sheahan.  Yet they both made us more difficult to play against than all the mediocre old hacks in the world. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#122 number9

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 01:22 PM

 
Neither was Jurco...or Sheahan.  Yet they both made us more difficult to play against than all the mediocre old hacks in the world. 


I eyeball tested Sproul, and he's not ready, trust me

#123 kipwinger

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 01:24 PM

I eyeball tested Sproul, and he's not ready, trust me

 

God bless you!


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#124 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 01:26 PM

For the record, the Islanders did offer Boyle a 2 yr deal. Not sure on the $, but he's likely to make upwards of $5 mil per as a ufa.



#125 Jesusberg

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 01:31 PM

 

Agreed.  So rather that do something just to do it, why not give the spot to the most deserving kids and let them gain valuable experience which WILL help us in the future.  Lord knows what 82 games under Babcock's tutelage would do for Ryan Sproul's development. 

 

I don't think we'll ever agree on this one, but signing Boyle (in my eyes) run against two of your arguments. 

#1: I don't think signing Boyle would be "doing something just to do it". I think his experience would help Sproul, Marchenko, Ouellet, etc. Whichever one of the kids makes the team this coming season, especially with their work on the PP. Which brings me to...

#2: One of those kids is going to make the team this year, in my opinion. They've (Holland and Babcock) discussed it several times - they like the kids. My best guess is that one of Kindl and/or Lashoff is out with the Wings. I would love for Detroit to be able to move Kindl to a team fighting to hit the cap floor. I think Kindl has certainly played himself off this team, and someone will be willing to ship over a 4th or 5th for him.

Having a defensive core of Kronwall, Ericsson, DeKeyser, Boyle, Smith, Sproul and Lashoff looks good to me - at the very least, it's an improvement over last season's. 



#126 kipwinger

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 01:34 PM

 

I don't think we'll ever agree on this one, but signing Boyle (in my eyes) run against two of your arguments. 

#1: I don't think signing Boyle would be "doing something just to do it". I think his experience would help Sproul, Marchenko, Ouellet, etc. Whichever one of the kids makes the team this coming season, especially with their work on the PP. Which brings me to...

#2: One of those kids is going to make the team this year, in my opinion. They've (Holland and Babcock) discussed it several times - they like the kids. My best guess is that one of Kindl and/or Lashoff is out with the Wings. I would love for Detroit to be able to move Kindl to a team fighting to hit the cap floor. I think Kindl has certainly played himself off this team, and someone will be willing to ship over a 4th or 5th for him.

Having a defensive core of Kronwall, Ericsson, DeKeyser, Boyle, Smith, Sproul and Lashoff looks good to me - at the very least, it's an improvement over last season's. 

 

How is he going to help the kids any more than the vets we already have?  We're not Edmonton, we've got tons of highly successful veterans on our team.  And also, anything you gain in that regard is offset by the fact that he's old, slow, small, and even in his best years was only ok at actually playing defense. 


Edited by kipwinger, 18 June 2014 - 01:35 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#127 wings4thecup06

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 01:46 PM

Screw it. Just bring up Sproul for the entire year, and if he can't cope, send him back down for a bit and bring up Ouellet. If he struggles bring up Marchenko. Repeat until finding a prospect that feels comfortable at the NHL level. 


temp 1

 


#128 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 01:49 PM

 

How is he going to help the kids any more than the vets we already have?  We're not Edmonton, we've got tons of highly successful veterans on our team.  And also, anything you gain in that regard is offset by the fact that he's old, slow, small, and even in his best years was only ok at actually playing defense. 

 

At 37, Boyle is certainly old, but he's still a very good skater and has always played bigger than he is.  He's also the  RH shot the Wings desperately need.  

 

I didn't see him a ton this past season but it seems like his play has fallen off.  For me the big question is if that's partly due to lingering effects from the Lapierre hit, or if at 37 his level of play is about to go off the cliff. 

 

Honestly I don't know how to feel about it.  I wouldn't be upset if the Wings brought him in, but I'm guessing at the price he'll require it likely won't happen anyway.



#129 Jesusberg

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 01:53 PM

 

How is he going to help the kids any more than the vets we already have?  We're not Edmonton, we've got tons of highly successful veterans on our team.  And also, anything you gain in that regard is offset by the fact that he's old, slow, small, and even in his best years was only ok at actually playing defense. 

Because he's a great asset on the PP, even in his diminished state. Outside of Kronwall, who is really effective on the powerplay on this team? Seriously?

Even then, it's been mentioned by Wings' brass on several occasions that they sorely miss Lidstrom's ability to get pucks through on the PP. I'm a huge Kronwall fan, but that's something he struggles with - a year ago, Kindl was doing it better than he was. I don't think Dan Boyle is the answer, but I do think he has a place and role on this team. I don't believe he's the useless void that many feel he would be on this team. At worst, the guy is a powerplay specialist, a right-handed shot and someone who can get the puck up the ice better than most of our defenders.

I understand he's long in the tooth and has certainly lost a step, but I feel like he can help this team and its young players more than most people think.


Edited by Jesusberg, 18 June 2014 - 01:54 PM.


#130 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 01:57 PM

Because he's a great asset on the PP, even in his diminished state. Outside of Kronwall, who is really effective on the powerplay on this team? Seriously?

Even then, it's been mentioned by Wings' brass on several occasions that they sorely miss Lidstrom's ability to get pucks through on the PP. I'm a huge Kronwall fan, but that's something he struggles with - a year ago, Kindl was doing it better than he was. I don't think Dan Boyle is the answer, but I do think he has a place and role on this team. I don't believe he's the useless void that many feel he would be on this team. At worst, the guy is a powerplay specialist, a right-handed shot and someone who can get the puck up the ice better than most of our defenders.

I understand he's long in the tooth and has certainly lost a step, but I feel like he can help this team and its young players more than most people think.

 

If it meant ditching Kindl, I'd be interested.  

 

Obviously he costs more but could be a great RH shot on the PP, he's a good puck mover, and likely wouldn't be any worse than Kindl defensively. 

 

Like I said though, with the money they're speculating he'll get ($5 mill) I don't see Holland pulling the trigger. 



#131 kipwinger

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 02:08 PM

 

He's also the  RH shot the Wings desperately need.  

 

Need for what?  To compete for a cup, or to barely make the playoffs for two of years before being crushed in the playoffs and then retiring?

 

Seriously, is the goal to get back to Cup contention.  Because if so, Boyle's not going to help us.  He couldn't help the Sharks and they're MILES better than we are.  

 

But if the goal is to make the playoffs, yet not have a realistic chance of winning, then sure, Boyle will help.  All Boyle does is help the Wings stay as mediocre as they are, or marginally improve their averageness.  I'm sick of watching the Wings tread water.

 

It's my preference that we do  what it takes to be a Cup contender, or let the kids play. 


Edited by kipwinger, 18 June 2014 - 02:09 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#132 wings4thecup06

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 02:15 PM

 

Need for what?  To compete for a cup, or to barely make the playoffs for two of years before being crushed in the playoffs and then retiring?

 

Seriously, is the goal to get back to Cup contention.  Because if so, Boyle's not going to help us.  He couldn't help the Sharks and they're MILES better than we are.  

 

But if the goal is to make the playoffs, yet not have a realistic chance of winning, then sure, Boyle will help.  All Boyle does is help the Wings stay as mediocre as they are, or marginally improve their averageness.  I'm sick of watching the Wings tread water.

 

It's my preference that we do  what it takes to be a Cup contender, or let the kids play. 

 

But you can't go from middling idiot to top of the class through signing any one player, unless your team is that close anyway (e.g the Hawks). For the Wings and most others, it has to come through a series of signings, trades and prospects that have stepped up the game to the next level. Boyle won't help us win the Cup, but he could be part of a piece that if everything comes together in the right way, will help us win. 


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#133 kipwinger

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 02:24 PM

 

But you can't go from middling idiot to top of the class through signing any one player, unless your team is that close anyway (e.g the Hawks). For the Wings and most others, it has to come through a series of signings, trades and prospects that have stepped up the game to the next level. Boyle won't help us win the Cup, but he could be part of a piece that if everything comes together in the right way, will help us win. 

 

Exactly, which is why I'm advocating we either A) acquire multiple impact players, or B) have faith that our kids will be impact players and then give them roster spots and ice time to prove it.

 

There's no combination of Boyle + Kids that makes us good enough to compete for a Cup before he retires at the end of whatever contract he signs this year.  And by signing him and nobody better, you've already conceded that you're not winning anything next year.  So even in the best case scenario you've only got a one year window of opportunity for him to be a "piece of the puzzle".  At which point he'll be 39 years old and will have declined further than he already has.

 

All for about 5 million a year. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#134 wings4thecup06

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 02:40 PM

 

Exactly, which is why I'm advocating we either A) acquire multiple impact players, or B) have faith that our kids will be impact players and then give them roster spots and ice time to prove it.

 

There's no combination of Boyle + Kids that makes us good enough to compete for a Cup before he retires at the end of whatever contract he signs this year.  And by signing him and nobody better, you've already conceded that you're not winning anything next year.  So even in the best case scenario you've only got a one year window of opportunity for him to be a "piece of the puzzle".  At which point he'll be 39 years old and will have declined further than he already has.

 

All for about 5 million a year. 

 

True, but we don't know what (if anything) might come after Boyle. Whether it be Alfie, a trade for Kesler, Edler or whatever. The pieces get added one by one generally not all at the same time. 


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#135 kipwinger

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 03:14 PM

 

True, but we don't know what (if anything) might come after Boyle. Whether it be Alfie, a trade for Kesler, Edler or whatever. The pieces get added one by one generally not all at the same time. 

 

Agreed.  We don't know.  Although I'm certainly not banking on anything else.  Signing old washed up vets is Holland's MO.  Trading for impact players like Kesler and Edler isn't.  If he signs Boyle and then goes on to do grab a couple first rate players in their prime, I won't have anything to complain about.  However, history has shown Holland signs guys like Boyle in lieu of making impact moves, not in addition to making impact moves.  If he signs Boyle, I sure hope this will be the exception.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#136 Jesusberg

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 03:18 PM

 

Exactly, which is why I'm advocating we either A) acquire multiple impact players, or B) have faith that our kids will be impact players and then give them roster spots and ice time to prove it.

 

There's no combination of Boyle + Kids that makes us good enough to compete for a Cup before he retires at the end of whatever contract he signs this year.  And by signing him and nobody better, you've already conceded that you're not winning anything next year.  So even in the best case scenario you've only got a one year window of opportunity for him to be a "piece of the puzzle".  At which point he'll be 39 years old and will have declined further than he already has.

 

All for about 5 million a year. 

So then C) Acquire Boyle and allow him to pass on knowledge (not just faith) to the kids, helping along their ability to become impact players isn't an option? Ok, I guess.

It's easy to say there's no combination of Boyle + prospects that help us compete for a Cup, but I don't feel that to be true. At the very least, I'm not going to write off a team that suffered all the injuries that they did this past year. Nor do I think that signing Boyle would be conceding to failure - rather, it would be preparing the kids better.

I feel like the argument being presented is working in extremes. "We go for the cup, or we let the kids sink/swim. Signing Boyle means we're giving up." I can kind of see the basis for your argument, but at the same time I don't see at all how singing a PP specialist, vet is going to hurt the process of creating solid defenders out of Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko, etc. I personally think that having two of those three guys in the line-up, next season, is rushing things a bit. They've all had one year in GR.

As far as the whole 5 million tag, the last thing this team needs to worry about is the cap. They're comfortable, and the RFA's who need to be signed aren't going to take up that big of a chunk.


Edited by Jesusberg, 18 June 2014 - 03:20 PM.


#137 kipwinger

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 03:33 PM

1.  So then C) Acquire Boyle and allow him to pass on knowledge (not just faith) to the kids, helping along their ability to become impact players isn't an option? 

 

2.  At the very least, I'm not going to write off a team that suffered all the injuries that they did this past year.

3.  I don't see at all how singing a PP specialist, vet is going to hurt the process of creating solid defenders out of Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko, etc.

4.  As far as the whole 5 million tag, the last thing this team needs to worry about is the cap.

 

As I did with someone else earlier, I numbered the parts of your message that I'm going to respond to because you contained a lot of information, some of which I agree with. 

 

1.  What's he going to teach the kids that Kronwall can't?  Is he that much wiser or more accomplished than Kronner?

 

2.  Signing old players and asking them to play big roles (top four d-man in Boyle's case) only increases the likelihood that injuries will continue to be a problem.  I see no reason to think that injuries to our key players (who are all old) are going to decline going forward.

 

3.  Singing Boyle to play alongside Kronwall, Dekeyser, Smith, and Ericsson ensures that only one of the three players you mentioned (nevermind Backman or Jensen) will see significant playing time until at least the end of Boyle's two year contract (which he's seeking).  Therefore, for at least the next two years the other two guys are riding the pine as the 7th d-man or playing in GR.  I'd prefer they get NHL experience if they're going to factor so heavily into our future plans. 

 

4.  If all we're getting is leadership we don't really need, and a bump in our powerplay (hopefully), why not sign Stephane Robidas for half that and use the savings to pursue a forward who isn't small and/or old and/or injured constantly?

 

Overall, I don't think you're hugely off base with your logic or anything.  I think we just disagree on the relative value of Boyle given where he's at in his career as well as where we're at in our rebuild. 

 

Edit:  Just so you know, the comment about Stephane Robidas is tongue in cheek.  I don't really want him.  I'm just saying he'd give you everything Boyle does, and more cheaply.


Edited by kipwinger, 18 June 2014 - 03:36 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#138 Datsyukian-Deke

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 04:30 PM

All these people saying we don't need Boyle because that won't win us a cup are like a broken record. Does adding Boyle guarantee us a cup? Obviously no. But what player is really out there that could do that? We have to start somewhere to fill our needs and I think he fills two of this teams needs immediately. Right handed shot....puck moving defenseman. End of story.

#139 LeftWinger

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 04:41 PM

I am still ok on signing a Dan Boyle.  I am sure Babcock knows tons about him and what he doesn't know, all he has to do is call McLellan and I am sure McLellan is going to give Boyle and HUGE recommendation if Holland and Babcock ask.  I can certainly see Boyle in a Wings jersey for the next 2 seasons....that being said, I do agree with Kip, he Holland signs Boyle along with making a couple of impact moves that puts this team in Cup contention, then lets do it.  But we all know Holland's MO.  He may sign a Boyle, he may trade Kindl for a  pick, but he will then retain Cleary and Monster and call it a July 1st and boast on how if the team can stay health, he is happy with what he has.

 

To put it in his terms...."The addition of Boyle will tremendously help our PP and blueline, our returning healthy vets are proven and know our system, we kicked the tires on a few other UFA's and trade options, but in the end, we needed a hockey move and nothing made sense of our team...we like our team going forward."


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#140 Jesusberg

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 04:59 PM

 

As I did with someone else earlier, I numbered the parts of your message that I'm going to respond to because you contained a lot of information, some of which I agree with. 

 

1.  What's he going to teach the kids that Kronwall can't?  Is he that much wiser or more accomplished than Kronner?

 

2.  Signing old players and asking them to play big roles (top four d-man in Boyle's case) only increases the likelihood that injuries will continue to be a problem.  I see no reason to think that injuries to our key players (who are all old) are going to decline going forward.

 

3.  Singing Boyle to play alongside Kronwall, Dekeyser, Smith, and Ericsson ensures that only one of the three players you mentioned (nevermind Backman or Jensen) will see significant playing time until at least the end of Boyle's two year contract (which he's seeking).  Therefore, for at least the next two years the other two guys are riding the pine as the 7th d-man or playing in GR.  I'd prefer they get NHL experience if they're going to factor so heavily into our future plans. 

 

4.  If all we're getting is leadership we don't really need, and a bump in our powerplay (hopefully), why not sign Stephane Robidas for half that and use the savings to pursue a forward who isn't small and/or old and/or injured constantly?

 

Overall, I don't think you're hugely off base with your logic or anything.  I think we just disagree on the relative value of Boyle given where he's at in his career as well as where we're at in our rebuild. 

 

Edit:  Just so you know, the comment about Stephane Robidas is tongue in cheek.  I don't really want him.  I'm just saying he'd give you everything Boyle does, and more cheaply.

I'll do the same as far as numbering goes.

#1: I don't think he's got leaps and bounds more knowledge than Kronwall does, but I think that if you look at both careers, Boyle is superior offensively. Now is that in part because San Jose has been an offensive juggernaut for years/Kronwall was playing on a second pairing? More than likely, but I still think he's got some great offensive knowledge that can be passed onto the kids, namely Smith, Sproul, Ouellet and Jensen.

#2: I think we look at defense cores differently. Maybe it's just me, but I see teams using a balance going forward now, with all the parity in the league. While I do think there can be monster top pairings, (Keith-Seabrook, Bouwmeester-Pietrangelo, Markov-Subban) I think that the league in general is getting away from stacking players, and going more for balance. In our case, while I think DeKeyser has a lot to offer going forward, I'm not sure he should be counted on for his own pairing. I think balanced minutes and balanced pairings are the way to go in the league, now. Kronwall-Smith, DeKeyser-Boyle, Ericsson-Sporul/Marchenko. I don't think that's a demotion to Ericsson - rather, I feel like he's being put in charge of his own pairing and helping to balance out a rookie. Boyle would be doing the same for DeKeyser, as Kronwall does for Smith.

#3: I can see the argument in the second year of Boyle's (potential) deal. I wouldn't want to see a NHL-ready Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko sitting in GR, either. I think someone (Dickie Dunn?) has mentioned that Lashoff is essentially the perfect 7th guy. He's cheap, still young and not good enough that he should be threatening for a top 6 spot with any merit. I wouldn't want to see any of those guys with potential wasted, either. That being said, we have another problem without factoring Boyle into the mix. We've got Kronwall, Ericsson locked up, and Smith and DeKeyser as probable keepers moving forward. Trying to shove Sproul, Ouellet, Backman, Marchenko, etc into the mix... there's clearly a logjam. In a perfect world, I'd move Smith as part of a deal for a legitimate top pairing guy in his prime, but that's another story and pipe dream in my estimation.

#4: I'd have no issue with Robidas, if that's what I thought this team needed. To be totally honest, I'm not even that high on Dan Boyle (believe it or not). I just think that given our set of circumstances, he's the most beneficial and realistic option for this off season. Niskanen is going to cost too much (term and salary), Gilbert is a poor man's PP specialist, the kids aren't there YET, etc. The team needs a PP boost, a right-handed shot and someone to help get the puck up ice. Right now I think Dan Boyle fits that need.

I don't think we're that far off on the logic here, either. I can see your argument, and I agree with our differing opinions on Boyle value. I also think we have differing philosophies when it comes to the next step for the team, but as you've said, I can see both sides of it. 







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