• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
plopster

GM moves

Rate this topic

62 posts in this topic

These are the moves the kings GM has made before their last two finals appearances. Holland used to do similar things. What gives?

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/analysis-jeff-carter-jack-johnson-deal-royal-coup-041338890.html

[url="http://m.espn.go.com/general/story?storyId=10556331&city=losangeles&src=desktop%5B/url]

Edited by plopster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some GMs want cups some are content with just making the playoffs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These are the moves the kings GM has made before their last two finals appearances. Holland used to do similar things. What gives?

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/analysis-jeff-carter-jack-johnson-deal-royal-coup-041338890.html

http://m.espn.go.com/general/story?storyId=9130225&city=newyork&src=desktop

The second article is when Gaborik was traded from NY to Columbus....not Columbus to LA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The second article is when Gaborik was traded from NY to Columbus....not Columbus to LA.

Fixed

Sadly, we don't have a Jack Johnson laying around that we could trade.

Also, we're on the rebuild and can't trade 1st rounders

No, but there is Ericsson, dekeyser, quincey. And I don't mind giving up second or third rounders. How many of those have worked out recently anyway? I remember seeing a thread with a post about how guys that we have passed up on in the draft have turned out a lot better than the guys the wings picked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fixed

No, but there is Ericsson, dekeyser, quincey. And I don't mind giving up second or third rounders. How many of those have worked out recently anyway? I remember seeing a thread with a post about how guys that we have passed up on in the draft have turned out a lot better than the guys the wings picked.

Ericsson, Dekeyser and Quincey are not Jack Johnson type defencemen. Especially not the calibre he was when he was traded.

We also don't have the 8th overall pick to offer.

As far as how many 2nd and 3rd round picks have worked out...in the Wings case the answer would be many. Ouellet, Sproul, Jurco, Tatar, Bertuzzi, Nastasiuk, Janmark etc.

Just because better people have been passed over doesn't mean we didn't get good players with our selections.

Hats off to the Kings for their success, but we don't need to emulate every team that wins the cup...The Wings system has been proven successful too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well it seems odd that when holland would pull the trigger at the deadline we would make deep runs to the playoffs and to the finals. Made it with Hossa, drake, hasek, hull, and shanny. Grant it, those previous years they could spend money forever, but acquiring serious skill at the deadline seems to be working. And none of those guys you mentioned have exactly been tearing it up in the nhl yet. Bertuzzi? Really? He hasn't even been called up yet.

I'm just really irritated with the way they have been running things the past few years. Paying old washed up guys, not making trades, not spending all their cap space. Over paying for guys or handing out too long of a contract. It's just ridiculous. Hollands plan for keeping things going sounds a lot like just keeping up appearances and strategizing to have one really good season every 5 or 6 years and they are getting their asses handed to them by the bruins, hawks, and hell, they could hardly beat the coyotes this past year. It just seems like a lot of mediocrity for a very proud franchise and fan base.

Edited by plopster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well it seems odd that when holland would pull the trigger at the deadline we would make deep runs to the playoffs and to the finals. Made it with Hossa, drake, hasek, hull, and shanny. Grant it, those previous years they could spend money forever, but acquiring serious skill at the deadline seems to be working. And none of those guys you mentioned have exactly been tearing it up in the nhl yet. Bertuzzi? Really? He hasn't even been called up yet.

I'm just really irritated with the way they have been running things the past few years. Paying old washed up guys, not making trades, not spending all their cap space. Over paying for guys or handing out too long of a contract. It's just ridiculous. Hollands plan for keeping things going sounds a lot like just keeping up appearances and strategizing to have one really good season every 5 or 6 years and they are getting their asses handed to them by the bruins, hawks, and hell, they could hardly beat the coyotes this past year. It just seems like a lot of mediocrity for a very proud franchise and fan base.

I'm starting to wonder if you even watch the same team as me.

Absolutely none of those guys were deadline pick-ups. Shanahan and Hasek were trades but they happened very early in the season. The rest were off-season Free Agent signings.

We spent to the cap this past season, and while we got handled pretty easily by Boston, we gave Chicago all they could handle last season and were a Danny Dekeyser Injury away from potentially adding another cup. It's also been 4 years since we played Phoenix in the playoffs and we swept them then, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.

Back to our deadline moves, Holland pulled the trigger on one this past deadline and it's been the most commonly criticized move he's made in years (besides re-signing Cleary).

Who doesn't?

Are Wings fans so spoiled that we get angry because we've gone a whole 6 years without a cup? Leaf fans have been waiting going on 50 years... have some perspective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well it seems odd that when holland would pull the trigger at the deadline we would make deep runs to the playoffs and to the finals. Made it with Hossa, drake, hasek, hull, and shanny. Grant it, those previous years they could spend money forever, but acquiring serious skill at the deadline seems to be working. And none of those guys you mentioned have exactly been tearing it up in the nhl yet. Bertuzzi? Really? He hasn't even been called up yet.

I'm just really irritated with the way they have been running things the past few years. Paying old washed up guys, not making trades, not spending all their cap space. Over paying for guys or handing out too long of a contract. It's just ridiculous. Hollands plan for keeping things going sounds a lot like just keeping up appearances and strategizing to have one really good season every 5 or 6 years and they are getting their asses handed to them by the bruins, hawks, and hell, they could hardly beat the coyotes this past year. It just seems like a lot of mediocrity for a very proud franchise and fan base.

Wow. Someone finally figured it out. Hollands just trying to keep up appearances. He doesn't even want to build a good hockey team. He just wants to play GM and hang out with Zetterberg.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow. Someone finally figured it out. Hollands just trying to keep up appearances. He doesn't even want to build a good hockey team. He just wants to play GM and hang out with Zetterberg.

I'd rather hang out with Pasha

number9 likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This team needs to change the philosophy at the GM position. We need a new GM that has something to prove. Holland is content to keep his streak going and sit on his previous cup wins. Any new GM is set up for success right now with all the assets we have - its just Holland doesn't feel the need to make things happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dude, really? The Kings finished SIXTH in their conference and are now on their way to winning another Stanley Cup. Nobody picked them over the likes of Chicago and the Blues to make the finals. Even then, they beat three teams in a row who ALL had home ice advantage. That's a significant thing to accomplish in the NHL playoffs.

Similar thing in the East- the talk was who could compete with the physicality of the Bruins or the skill of the Penguins? Montreal was the only other team to get significant love. The Rangers were an afterthought.

So, yeah, swinging a trade for Legwand and making the playoffs could have been the catalyst for this team. Could you imagine if Zetterberg had his legs under him and Ericsson was playing? Totally different defense, too! No more Kindl-Lashoff pairing...

number9 likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holland is like someone who inherits a big savings account, and then lets it dwindle down over the years without supplementing his income.

Account will be almost empty when Datsyuk and Zetterberg retire.

gcom007 likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I was talking about Phoenix during the season this year. And I meant trades in general for picks like the kings did. But holland feels good about his team. True they may have gone farther with less injuries. But signing all these old f***ers to contracts needs to stop. Bertuzzi should have been dropped years ago. Lids and holmer were the few that got a pass for that, but they were still pretty good at what they did. It was just so hard to watch the games this year. Their play was not very crisp. One and done in the offensive zone. The forechecking was pretty bad. The power play was worse. The defense was bad at the end of games, how was mediocre at best. It just kills me to watch the wings look so bad after watching them own the 90s and part of the early 2000s and seeing the s***ty moves holland makes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could you imagine if Zetterberg had his legs under him and Ericsson was playing?

And the year before that it was "could you imagine if Helm and Dekeyser were playing". There's always some excuse for losing. But the reality is, we're not going to win anything soon if our GM doesn't get aggressive. Maybe 5 years down the road when all our kids are in their primes, provided their primes are even all that great to begin with.

What happens if we put all our eggs in the kid basket and it turns out Nyquist only ever gets as good as Filppula, Mantha's the next Primeau, and Smith is Mathieu Schneider 2.0? We'd be f***ed. And given how hard it is to become a star in the NHL, it's much more likely that these things happen than that any of our young guys become star NHL players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And the year before that it was "could you imagine if Helm and Dekeyser were playing". There's always some excuse for losing. But the reality is, we're not going to win anything soon if our GM doesn't get aggressive. Maybe 5 years down the road when all our kids are in their primes, provided their primes are even all that great to begin with.

What happens if we put all our eggs in the kid basket and it turns out Nyquist only ever gets as good as Filppula, Mantha's the next Primeau, and Smith is Mathieu Schneider 2.0? We'd be f***ed. And given how hard it is to become a star in the NHL, it's much more likely that these things happen than that any of our young guys become star NHL players.

Things happen? Every year 29 teams play the "what if" game. This isn't something new to Detroit, dude. There are over ten million fans wondering the same thing. What if Mantha becomes the next Corey Perry? What if Nyquist is the next Zach Parise? What if Smith becomes the next Dan Boyle? We can play this game all day long. The Rangers don't have a glorified star in the making anymore than the Red Wings do. Look at Pittsburgh... two top-tier stars in Malkin and Crosby, then what? A bunch of guys that got wiped out of the playoffs in a hurry. If you think this team is just going to roll over in two or three years, you're mistaken. I really hate negative fans who always worry about the worst. I'm not saying I'm not happy with how things ended this year, but this team has pieces in place to make it to the finals. It starts and ends with the goaltender. If Howard plays like a championship-caliber goalie, then he can eliminate some of the bounces that would automatically give the other team the upper hand. In the playoffs, winning is where opportunity meets preparation. You can line your team with a bunch of stars with some of the top defenders and some great two-way forwards, but you can still get bounced (see Chicago and Boston). This team was put in position to succeed and they will be put in position next year, too. You're not going to win the Cup thirty years in a row, so stop with the negativity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of the issue is a lot of what has been good with us in the last 2 decades. This organisation has built players - in this case such as Ericsson - and the man running the show isn't going to want to give away the pieces he's created for someone else. Even though it's probably about time that some should be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kip, if Mantha is the next Primeau then he is pretty damn good!

Just as long as the s***ty attitude and concussions aren't part of that equation, I'm all for Mantha being Primeau-esque.

We're talking Keith not Wayne, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes Keith. He did not have a s***ty attitude. he had concussion problems later, but he was a great player when healthy. In fact more than once he was mentioned as our future captain prior to the trade. man has it really been almost 20 years????? Holy sh!t!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Things happen? Every year 29 teams play the "what if" game. This isn't something new to Detroit, dude. There are over ten million fans wondering the same thing. What if Mantha becomes the next Corey Perry? What if Nyquist is the next Zach Parise? What if Smith becomes the next Dan Boyle? We can play this game all day long. The Rangers don't have a glorified star in the making anymore than the Red Wings do. Look at Pittsburgh... two top-tier stars in Malkin and Crosby, then what? A bunch of guys that got wiped out of the playoffs in a hurry. If you think this team is just going to roll over in two or three years, you're mistaken. I really hate negative fans who always worry about the worst. I'm not saying I'm not happy with how things ended this year, but this team has pieces in place to make it to the finals. It starts and ends with the goaltender. If Howard plays like a championship-caliber goalie, then he can eliminate some of the bounces that would automatically give the other team the upper hand. In the playoffs, winning is where opportunity meets preparation. You can line your team with a bunch of stars with some of the top defenders and some great two-way forwards, but you can still get bounced (see Chicago and Boston). This team was put in position to succeed and they will be put in position next year, too. You're not going to win the Cup thirty years in a row, so stop with the negativity.

Your entire point earlier was "what if Zetterberg and Ericsson played". You're playing the "what if" game too. I'm just being a little more realistic. Odds are against any of the kids being as good as Datsyuk or Zetterberg. Babcock and Holland have each said so explicitly. So resting our hopes on "the kids" is a recipe for failure. It would probably be a good idea to move SOME of them for established NHL talent while they've still got value. Otherwise we may find that five years from now we've got a bunch of decent talent and nothing to write home about.

The two teams in the Cup right now are full of star players that weren't drafted by either team. Mike and Brad Richards, Jeff Carter, Rick Nash, Martin St. Louis, Marian Gaborik, were all traded for and they're playing huge roles for their respective teams. They weren't acquired for peanuts. We've got HUGE amounts of young talent. Would it kill us to move SOME of it for established players?

Edited by kipwinger
frankgrimes and Mitchmac33 like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't disagree that the chances of any of our young players or prospects becoming as good or better than Zetterberg and Datsyuk are slim, however I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility either. It is possible that a couple could become somewhat close. I can definitely see Nyquist becoming a Zetterberg-lite and Jurco becoming a Datsyuk-lite. It's hard to imagine either of these young guys becoming elite / all-stars / future hall of famers but it is feasible. If they both continue to work on their two-way game, and they can become legitimate threats in all three zones, I think the potential is there, what they do with that, time will tell.

Nyquist shows the same will and determination that Hank has. Despite being a smaller player, he can already protect the puck quite well with his lower body strength. If he adds another 10-15 lbs. of muscle, I think he will be unstoppable. Jurco has the hands, maybe not "Datsyuk-hands" but great hands nonetheless. He's already much bigger than Pav, and has already shown he is willing to give or take a check to make a play, as well as go to the dirty areas. I think both of these players have the potential to put up anywhere between 65-85 points per year while playing sound defensive hockey for the next 10+ years.

Add to that, some of our other promising prospects and I believe the future is bright.

I'm not necessarily saying I want to stand pat and have Hank and Pav retire, without making a real push for another Stanley Cup. But trading off a boat load of promising prospects could be dangerous. I know, no player or prospect should be untouchable and I do agree but there are definitely a few that I would need an extremely significant return, to give up. These include Nyquist, Jurco, Pulkkinen, Mantha, Sproul and Mrazek.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your entire point earlier was "what if Zetterberg and Ericsson played". You're playing the "what if" game too. I'm just being a little more realistic. Odds are against any of the kids being as good as Datsyuk or Zetterberg. Babcock and Holland have each said so explicitly. So resting our hopes on "the kids" is a recipe for failure. It would probably be a good idea to move SOME of them for established NHL talent while they've still got value. Otherwise we may find that five years from now we've got a bunch of decent talent and nothing to write home about.

The two teams in the Cup right now are full of star players that weren't drafted by either team. Mike and Brad Richards, Jeff Carter, Rick Nash, Martin St. Louis, Marian Gaborik, were all traded for and they're playing huge roles for their respective teams. They weren't acquired for peanuts. We've got HUGE amounts of young talent. Would it kill us to move SOME of it for established players?

I totally agree with this. I was salivating when I heard Carter was available from Columbus and Philly and Nash was available from NYR. What this team needs is a trade for a 25-28 year old established NHLer who is getting traded for a change of scenery. I think Tatar is the main piece we should dangle along with maybe Pulkkinen, a young D prospect, and a 1st rounder. I think we can afford to move our young wingers (not Mantha) considering we have so many of them and that position is the easiest to fill via free agency although I'd like to hold onto Nyquist if possible. Every year there will be a player like Alfredsson, Iginla, etc. that will come in as a mercenary and play wing on a cup contender - I'm not getting hung up on keeping all of our winger prospects. The key is - we need to trade our youngsters in the sweet spot where they have hype and potential - wait too long and they can taper off - wait too little and we sell them too cheaply.

I would rank our young wingers in terms of long-term value as:

Mantha

Nyquist

Jurco

Tatar

Pulkkinen

I think we can afford to lose 2 of the bottom 3 in addition to picks and a D prospect like Ouellet/Backman if it returns us a solid player in their prime.

rick zombo likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0