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#21 Richdg

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 09:14 PM

Yes Keith. He did not have a s***ty attitude. he had concussion problems later, but he was a great player when healthy. In fact more than once he was mentioned as our future captain prior to the trade. man has it really been almost 20 years????? Holy s***!



#22 Internet.Unknown

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 11:10 PM

Kip, if Mantha is the next Primeau then he is pretty damn good!

Yuck.



#23 kipwinger

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:30 AM

Things happen?  Every year 29 teams play the "what if" game.  This isn't something new to Detroit, dude.  There are over ten million fans wondering the same thing.  What if Mantha becomes the next Corey Perry?  What if Nyquist is the next Zach Parise?  What if Smith becomes the next Dan Boyle?  We can play this game all day long.  The Rangers don't have a glorified star in the making anymore than the Red Wings do.  Look at Pittsburgh... two top-tier stars in Malkin and Crosby, then what? A bunch of guys that got wiped out of the playoffs in a hurry.  If you think this team is just going to roll over in two or three years, you're mistaken.  I really hate negative fans who always worry about the worst.  I'm not saying I'm not happy with how things ended this year, but this team has pieces in place to make it to the finals.  It starts and ends with the goaltender.  If Howard plays like a championship-caliber goalie, then he can eliminate some of the bounces that would automatically give the other team the upper hand.  In the playoffs, winning is where opportunity meets preparation.  You can line your team with a bunch of stars with some of the top defenders and some great two-way forwards, but you can still get bounced (see Chicago and Boston).  This team was put in position to succeed and they will be put in position next year, too.  You're not going to win the Cup thirty years in a row, so stop with the negativity.

 

Your entire point earlier was "what if Zetterberg and Ericsson played".  You're playing the "what if" game too.  I'm just being a little more realistic.  Odds are against any of the kids being as good as Datsyuk or Zetterberg.  Babcock and Holland have each said so explicitly.   So resting our hopes on "the kids" is a recipe for failure.  It would probably be a good idea to move SOME of them for established NHL talent while they've still got value.  Otherwise we may find that five years from now we've got a bunch of decent talent and nothing to write home about. 

 

The two teams in the Cup right now are full of star players that weren't drafted by either team.  Mike and Brad Richards, Jeff Carter, Rick Nash, Martin St. Louis, Marian Gaborik, were all traded for and they're playing huge roles for their respective teams.  They weren't acquired for peanuts.  We've got HUGE amounts of young talent.  Would it kill us to move SOME of it for established players?


Edited by kipwinger, 09 June 2014 - 08:46 AM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#24 krsmith17

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 08:26 AM

I don't disagree that the chances of any of our young players or prospects becoming as good or better than Zetterberg and Datsyuk are slim, however I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility either. It is possible that a couple could become somewhat close. I can definitely see Nyquist becoming a Zetterberg-lite and Jurco becoming a Datsyuk-lite. It's hard to imagine either of these young guys becoming elite / all-stars / future hall of famers but it is feasible. If they both continue to work on their two-way game, and they can become legitimate threats in all three zones, I think the potential is there, what they do with that, time will tell.

Nyquist shows the same will and determination that Hank has. Despite being a smaller player, he can already protect the puck quite well with his lower body strength. If he adds another 10-15 lbs. of muscle, I think he will be unstoppable. Jurco has the hands, maybe not "Datsyuk-hands" but great hands nonetheless. He's already much bigger than Pav, and has already shown he is willing to give or take a check to make a play, as well as go to the dirty areas. I think both of these players have the potential to put up anywhere between 65-85 points per year while playing sound defensive hockey for the next 10+ years.

Add to that, some of our other promising prospects and I believe the future is bright.

I'm not necessarily saying I want to stand pat and have Hank and Pav retire, without making a real push for another Stanley Cup. But trading off a boat load of promising prospects could be dangerous. I know, no player or prospect should be untouchable and I do agree but there are definitely a few that I would need an extremely significant return, to give up. These include Nyquist, Jurco, Pulkkinen, Mantha, Sproul and Mrazek.



#25 dirtydangles

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 04:54 PM

 

Your entire point earlier was "what if Zetterberg and Ericsson played".  You're playing the "what if" game too.  I'm just being a little more realistic.  Odds are against any of the kids being as good as Datsyuk or Zetterberg.  Babcock and Holland have each said so explicitly.   So resting our hopes on "the kids" is a recipe for failure.  It would probably be a good idea to move SOME of them for established NHL talent while they've still got value.  Otherwise we may find that five years from now we've got a bunch of decent talent and nothing to write home about.

 

The two teams in the Cup right now are full of star players that weren't drafted by either team.  Mike and Brad Richards, Jeff Carter, Rick Nash, Martin St. Louis, Marian Gaborik, were all traded for and they're playing huge roles for their respective teams.  They weren't acquired for peanuts.  We've got HUGE amounts of young talent.  Would it kill us to move SOME of it for established players?

I totally agree with this. I was salivating when I heard Carter was available from Columbus and Philly and Nash was available from NYR. What this team needs is a trade for a 25-28 year old established NHLer who is getting traded for a change of scenery. I think Tatar is the main piece we should dangle along with maybe Pulkkinen, a young D prospect, and a 1st rounder. I think we can afford to move our young wingers (not Mantha) considering we have so many of them and that position is the easiest to fill via free agency although I'd like to hold onto Nyquist if possible. Every year there will be a player like Alfredsson, Iginla, etc. that will come in as a mercenary and play wing on a cup contender - I'm not getting hung up on keeping all of our winger prospects. The key is - we need to trade our youngsters in the sweet spot where they have hype and potential - wait too long and they can taper off - wait too little and we sell them too cheaply. 

 

I would rank our young wingers in terms of long-term value as:

 

Mantha

Nyquist

Jurco

Tatar

Pulkkinen

 

I think we can afford to lose 2 of the bottom 3 in addition to picks and a D prospect like Ouellet/Backman if it returns us a solid player in their prime. 


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#26 frankgrimes

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:29 AM

Talk about too much pressure for young kids, expecting them to become as good as our two superstars is so unrealistic it's not even worth discussing it. Zetterberg has that god given ability to play an excellent two way game and shadow the best of the best (Crosby), Pasha is well....magic on ice they are in a category of their own.

 

If guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco and some other can become regular contributors I'd be more than happy but at the end of the day you are not going to build a winner through the draft only, there needs to be a mixture between UFA and draft. That being said, if Holland packages one of the young kids it better be for a top 4 pairing defenseman. If the rumors are true and Seabrook might become available the Wings need to move heaven and earth to get this guy. Given the outlook at the current UFA class

 

If the Wings can't get Niskanen I'd rather stand pat and maybe become a worse team in an excecptional draft year (Eichel, McDavid...)


Edited by frankgrimes, 10 June 2014 - 03:38 AM.

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#27 wings4thecup06

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:52 PM

Talk about too much pressure for young kids, expecting them to become as good as our two superstars is so unrealistic it's not even worth discussing it. Zetterberg has that god given ability to play an excellent two way game and shadow the best of the best (Crosby), Pasha is well....magic on ice they are in a category of their own.

 

If guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco and some other can become regular contributors I'd be more than happy but at the end of the day you are not going to build a winner through the draft only, there needs to be a mixture between UFA and draft. That being said, if Holland packages one of the young kids it better be for a top 4 pairing defenseman. If the rumors are true and Seabrook might become available the Wings need to move heaven and earth to get this guy. Given the outlook at the current UFA class

 

If the Wings can't get Niskanen I'd rather stand pat and maybe become a worse team in an excecptional draft year (Eichel, McDavid...)

 

You really think that the hated Hawks would trade Seabrook to the Wings? I think the sun is more likely to fall out of the sky……(but they should enquire nonetheless)


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#28 frankgrimes

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 05:51 PM

You really think that the hated Hawks would trade Seabrook to the Wings? I think the sun is more likely to fall out of the sky……(but they should enquire nonetheless)


Do I think so, no? But they might not have a choice Toews and Kane will each get 10 mill caphits and that's 20 mill locked up on only two guys (more than Pittsburgh is paying for Malkin and Crosby)

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#29 number9

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 02:17 AM

Do I think so, no? But they might not have a choice Toews and Kane will each get 10 mill caphits and that's 20 mill locked up on only two guys (more than Pittsburgh is paying for Malkin and Crosby)

10 million? I think you mean 6 - 8 million depending on the length



#30 frankgrimes

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 02:37 AM

10 million? I think you mean 6 - 8 million depending on the length

 

Blackhawks have no leverage whatsoever here, captain serious will get his 10 mill either with the Hawks or somewhere else, he knows it his agent does as well and I'm sure Bowman is the same. There are contracts are going to be 8 years ~ 90 million Kane might get a little less but not by much.


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#31 number9

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 02:48 AM

 

Blackhawks have no leverage whatsoever here, captain serious will get his 10 mill either with the Hawks or somewhere else, he knows it his agent does as well and I'm sure Bowman is the same. There are contracts are going to be 8 years ~ 90 million Kane might get a little less but not by much.

 

If I was either of them I'd want to be in Chicago for the rest of my career. Management has done a damn good job of putting a competitive team together every year, with themselves as the center pieces. If Toews or Kane demand above 8 a year they are dumb... and as much as I despise them I don't think either are that stupid.



#32 frankgrimes

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 02:56 AM

 

If I was either of them I'd want to be in Chicago for the rest of my career. Management has done a damn good job of putting a competitive team together every year, with themselves as the center pieces. If Toews or Kane demand above 8 a year they are dumb... and as much as I despise them I don't think either are that stupid.

 

Why are they dumb ? It's not their fault that you can't have longterm contracts anymore so for sure their average caphit will go up.

 

Both have already won two cups, Toews has a gold medal, junior gold and whatnot the guy at such a young age has nothing left to proof. I'm sure he isn't stupid thats why I don't think he will ask for maximum caphits neither will Kane but Toews >>>>> Malkin, Ovechkin and both are making more than 9 mill per so do the math. Some Blackhawks fans think both are going to sign for UNDER 8 million, if Bowman goes in with an offer like that it would almost be insulting.


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#33 number9

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 03:03 AM

 

Why are they dumb ? It's not their fault that you can't have longterm contracts anymore so for sure their average caphit will go up.

 

Both have already won two cups, Toews has a gold medal, junior gold and whatnot the guy at such a young age has nothing left to proof. I'm sure he isn't stupid thats why I don't think he will ask for maximum caphits neither will Kane but Toews >>>>> Malkin, Ovechkin and both are making more than 9 mill per so do the math. Some Blackhawks fans think both are going to sign for UNDER 8 million, if Bowman goes in with an offer like that it would almost be insulting.

 

 

Ok remembering that our superstars are at under 8 mill and under 7 mill, unlike most teams, I'll reevaluate my arguemt. Toews or Kane probably could get up to 9 million per year. Personally I think that sucks to do to your team, but if they want it they'll get it. However, I still think 10 million is an overpayment.



#34 wings4thecup06

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 04:36 AM

 

 

Ok remembering that our superstars are at under 8 mill and under 7 mill, unlike most teams, I'll reevaluate my arguemt. Toews or Kane probably could get up to 9 million per year. Personally I think that sucks to do to your team, but if they want it they'll get it. However, I still think 10 million is an overpayment.

 

Exactly. 10 million is a definite overpayment. And really, with the amount of money they've already earned in their careers, what exactly is $1-2 million extra going to cost them? A bruised ego? Give me a break. 

 

If they were smart they would negotiate together and get $8m each so that the Hawks could keep having success by giving management the flexibility to add more pieces when necessary. 


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#35 Richdg

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 09:46 AM

Fg is right/wrong a bit here. Yes Toews will get huge money. But and this is key. If he becomes a UFA other teams can only sign him to a 7 year deal if that happens he gets 10 mill/cap hit. By resigning with the B hawks they can resign him to an 8 year deal. That will allow them to get a lower cap hit. 70 mill divided by 8 years. kane is not in the same class as Toews. In 7 full seasons he has hit 30 goals once. A typical year is 23-27 goals. Good player yes, but not a superstar. 6.5-7 mill is more like it for him.



#36 frankgrimes

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:51 AM

Fg is right/wrong a bit here. Yes Toews will get huge money. But and this is key. If he becomes a UFA other teams can only sign him to a 7 year deal if that happens he gets 10 mill/cap hit. By resigning with the B hawks they can resign him to an 8 year deal. That will allow them to get a lower cap hit. 70 mill divided by 8 years. kane is not in the same class as Toews. In 7 full seasons he has hit 30 goals once. A typical year is 23-27 goals. Good player yes, but not a superstar. 6.5-7 mill is more like it for him.


It is really simple, he holds all the cards here. If Wirtz wants a smaller caphit well he had that chance during the last lockout but now long-term contracts are done, so he has to deal with a higher one

Imagine you are Toews agent, this negotiation has to be an agents dream. I honestly believe they are going in asking for Max, Hawks will offer 8,5 and both parties will meet somewhere in between with a full NMC and around 9 - 10 mill per.

Believe it or not, players are usually supporting a lot of loved ones and friends with money, so 1 - 2 mill over 8/7 years are 14 or 16 mill nobody in his right mind is saying no that. Especially when you have won everything under the age of 30!

Would I offer Kane the same ? No because I'd use Kessel as a comparision and add another 0,5 per.


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#37 PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 11:19 AM

Fg is right/wrong a bit here. Yes Toews will get huge money. But and this is key. If he becomes a UFA other teams can only sign him to a 7 year deal if that happens he gets 10 mill/cap hit. By resigning with the B hawks they can resign him to an 8 year deal. That will allow them to get a lower cap hit. 70 mill divided by 8 years. kane is not in the same class as Toews. In 7 full seasons he has hit 30 goals once. A typical year is 23-27 goals. Good player yes, but not a superstar. 6.5-7 mill is more like it for him.

I definitely think Toews is the better player, but the stats you showed don't say much. If you're comparing goals, Toews has only reached 30 goals twice. Also, Kane scored 29 in 69 games this year and 23 in 47 games last year - if you prorate that to a full season, that's basically him being a 30 goal scorer 3 out of 6 years. Anyway, point-wise they're pretty equal and they're both definitely stars

 

Toews is a great leader the more of a complete player. I actually think they'll make pretty much the same amount if only because Toews seems likely to take a bigger discount to help the team.



#38 DeGraa55

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 11:22 AM

I definitely think Toews is the better player, but the stats you showed don't say much. If you're comparing goals, Toews has only reached 30 goals twice. Also, Kane scored 29 in 69 games this year and 23 in 47 games last year - if you prorate that to a full season, that's basically him being a 30 goal scorer 3 out of 6 years. Anyway, point-wise they're pretty equal and they're both definitely stars
 
Toews is a great leader the more of a complete player. I actually think they'll make pretty much the same amount if only because Toews seems likely to take a bigger discount to help the team.


And for what's it's worth idk what their lines at emits I the time but it seems whenever I watch them they're running hossa toews and sharpe on one line then Kane with nobody on the second line.

But remember I only watch like 5 hawks games a year if that. I watch a lot of hockey just not theirs lol

#39 Richdg

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:02 PM

PVD, Toews is a 200ft play making C that scores. kane is a goal scoring winger. There are big differences in their game. Kane is not as good as Kessel and it isn't really close.



#40 frankgrimes

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:07 PM

PVD, Toews is a 200ft play makingC that scores. kane is a goal scoring winger. There are big differences in their game. Kane is not as good as Kessel and it isn't really close.


I think Kane and Kessel are close. The difference is Kessel doesn't get the type of respect he deserves because the guy is shy and introverted and Toronto prefers mediajunkies such as Lupul...

Kane is a very good player but nowhere near the importance of Toews agreed but it doesn't much Kane has a lot of cards too if he doesn't like the Blackhawks offer he could easily sign for much more with a team like Buffalo heck Buffalo could even easily stomach maximum for him.

At the end of the day the only leverage the Hawks have with both is one thing: 8 years

Other than that Brisson has an almost too easy job for a man with his negotiations skills.

Please note I'm not trying to play agent or GM just mentioning how I think this will play out based on public information and the importance of these two superstars

Edited by frankgrimes, 11 June 2014 - 12:12 PM.

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