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Compliance buyout expected to be used on Tootoo


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#61 Shaman

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 01:43 PM

The issue with Franzen is that his points tend to come in bunches and tend to be in games where they are next to meaningless. If he scored a hat trick in a 7-1 game that makes his stats look great, but does that get Detroit any closer to being relevant? Tootoo should be bought out, Cola shouldn't have been, as he, when he wasn't injured was better than Kindl and Lashoff, and when he was injured he didn't count against the cap anyway. 


Edited by Shaman, 19 June 2014 - 01:44 PM.

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#62 Wheelchairsuperhero

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 02:16 PM

The issue with Franzen is that his points tend to come in bunches and tend to be in games where they are next to meaningless. If he scored a hat trick in a 7-1 game that makes his stats look great, but does that get Detroit any closer to being relevant? Tootoo should be bought out, Cola shouldn't have been, as he, when he wasn't injured was better than Kindl and Lashoff, and when he was injured he didn't count against the cap anyway. 


I keep seeing that argument against Franzen about him being hot in meaningless moments, but I'm not sure where it came from. I remember thinking last season when he was red hot "thank god Franzen is scoring". I don't have the numbers to back this statement up but I remember having the thought that his hot streak last season was clutch. Then when he slowed down Nyquist rocketed forward. My point is I just don't know of "he scores in meaningless situations" really has any validity. If someone has the numbers that say otherwise that's cool, I'll accept that. My feelings on Franzen are mixed, I'm definitely not trying to blindly defend him.

#63 wings4thecup06

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 04:34 PM

I keep seeing that argument against Franzen about him being hot in meaningless moments, but I'm not sure where it came from. I remember thinking last season when he was red hot "thank god Franzen is scoring". I don't have the numbers to back this statement up but I remember having the thought that his hot streak last season was clutch. Then when he slowed down Nyquist rocketed forward. My point is I just don't know of "he scores in meaningless situations" really has any validity. If someone has the numbers that say otherwise that's cool, I'll accept that. My feelings on Franzen are mixed, I'm definitely not trying to blindly defend him.

 

I agree on this one. Just after the Olympic break Franzen was on fire, there was the hat-trick in Ottawa that essentially kept us floating for a while and then Gus got hot for the rest of the year and carried us. I know what you mean though, Franzen is really frustrating that he is so streaky, I wish he'd be more consistent too. I think most of us here will probably remember though that he went to sleep when it counted most this year, and that's the playoffs. 


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#64 F.Michael

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 05:54 PM

The issue with Franzen is that his points tend to come in bunches and tend to be in games where they are next to meaningless. If he scored a hat trick in a 7-1 game that makes his stats look great, but does that get Detroit any closer to being relevant? Tootoo should be bought out, Cola shouldn't have been, as he, when he wasn't injured was better than Kindl and Lashoff, and when he was injured he didn't count against the cap anyway. 

Spot on post - couldn't agree any more.



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#65 F.Michael

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 05:59 PM

I keep seeing that argument against Franzen about him being hot in meaningless moments, but I'm not sure where it came from. I remember thinking last season when he was red hot "thank god Franzen is scoring". I don't have the numbers to back this statement up but I remember having the thought that his hot streak last season was clutch. Then when he slowed down Nyquist rocketed forward. My point is I just don't know of "he scores in meaningless situations" really has any validity. If someone has the numbers that say otherwise that's cool, I'll accept that. My feelings on Franzen are mixed, I'm definitely not trying to blindly defend him.

Well - when we need the Mule to step it up - he usually doesn't.

 

Many will point towards his point production, and his cap value ratio - however he's still getting paid $5 million plus thru the 2015/2016 season...I'm all for using him as part of a package deal.



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#66 Wheelchairsuperhero

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 07:15 PM

Well - when we need the Mule to step it up - he usually doesn't.
 
Many will point towards his point production, and his cap value ratio - however he's still getting paid $5 million plus thru the 2015/2016 season...I'm all for using him as part of a package deal.


Like I said I've got mixed feelings about him, and it usually comes down to how I'm conflicted about his contract and how effective he'll be near the end of it. I just don't by into the argument that when he actually does produce, and in bunches, it's meaningless. He definitely didn't step up in the playoffs when we really needed him (though to be fair I'd say no one really did). But his hot streaks can and have turned the tide of some games. Just call me confused about this whole "he only scores during blowouts" thing until I see the numbers that indicate that.

Ps. Sorry that's my last post on Franzen in this thread, realized I've deviated from the topic. And on the topic I'm alright with the Tootoo buyout since a compliance buyout can't be used for Kindl.

#67 DeGraa55

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 08:29 PM

 
And if they're younger than 26, they only get 1/3 of the contract value.  At least according to capgeek.
 
http://capgeek.com/f...do-buyouts-work
 
It's something that I don't remember being talked about that much when the lockout ended, but is a pretty big deal.  Players contracts are no longer 100% guaranteed.   If bought out they get paid at most two-thirds the value and over twice the length of time of the contract.   So it's less money spread over a longer term. 


Whoops my mistake thought it was 100% either way only two buyouts for each team. But how does the regular buyout work is hat 100%?

And it's still crazy hockey like baseball pretty much always has guaranteed contract that's one thing the NFL has right.

#68 frankgrimes

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 08:57 PM

Whoops my mistake thought it was 100% either way only two buyouts for each team. But how does the regular buyout work is hat 100%? And it's still crazy hockey like baseball pretty much always has guaranteed contract that's one thing the NFL has right.

Regular buyout as far as I know is 100 % but over a longer period of time and counts against the cap.


Edited by haroldsnepsts, 20 June 2014 - 09:04 AM.

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#69 nawein

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 09:00 PM

Regular buyout as far as I know is 100 % but over a longer period of time and counts against the cap.


All buyouts (except for those players under 26) are 2/3 the value over twice the term. Only difference between regular and compliance is there is no cap hit with compliance and there is a hit with regular buyouts.



#70 frankgrimes

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 09:10 PM

All buyouts (except for those players under 26) are 2/3 the value over twice the term. Only difference between regular and compliance is there is no cap hit with compliance and there is a hit with regular buyouts.
Oh OK thanks at least its longer term so players at least have some security

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#71 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 08:48 AM

The only thing I'm less interested in than baseball is rehashing the arguments from the lockout.  Apologies for my part in setting the discussion on that path.

The topic is the Wings buying out Tootoo. Let's stick to that.

 



#72 Richdg

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 08:58 AM

Ok, don't waste the buyout on 22. He has 1 year left @ 1.9 million. We are going to have around 12 million to spend this year after resigning our RFA's before any buyouts. We don't need to waste the compliance buyout on him. If he isn't worthy of a roster spot, then cut him in camp. On a normal buyout 22 costs us about 640K each of the next 2 years. Franzen on the other hand costs us 4 million for the next 6 years.

here is an idea, put the 2 of them on the ice, have a 5 min timer, and tell them they are fighting for 1 job. Lets see who wins!



#73 Nightfall

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 12:28 PM

If Franzen was not producing, I would be all for buying him out.  The fact that he is producing means we should keep him.  Since the compliance buyout is a use it or lose it, I say that Tootoo is the most logical target at this stage. 


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#74 DeGraa55

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:41 PM

If Franzen was not producing, I would be all for buying him out.  The fact that he is producing means we should keep him.  Since the compliance buyout is a use it or lose it, I say that Tootoo is the most logical target at this stage. 


If you had to bet on it. Would you bet he remains a 25 goal a year player? Or continue his downward trend of scoring less and playing less due to injuries?

That's why I would've bought him out buts it's too late now. Holland has no balls and this team will continue to be mediocre for awhile.

#75 Nightfall

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 09:34 PM

If you had to bet on it. Would you bet he remains a 25 goal a year player? Or continue his downward trend of scoring less and playing less due to injuries?

That's why I would've bought him out buts it's too late now. Holland has no balls and this team will continue to be mediocre for awhile.

 

Every player goes downward as they get older.  That being said, buying him out at this stage accomplishes nothing.  We have can't get his production from anyone currently in the system.  No one who has the skill to produce like Franzen is going to sign here for less than $6 million a season and for a term that is as long as Franzen.  Then we will be in the same boat we are in today.  A veteran like Vanek that is going to demand more money to produce less and then keep producing less as he gets older.

 

So, in that situation, I would rather pay $4 to Franzen and just keep him going until the expiration of his contract.  By the end of it, the salary cap will be high enough where aging veterans will be getting paid the same as he is right now.

 

Holland made the right call here.  If he would have bought Franzen out, he would have gotten his balls cut off for sure.  Especially when he would have made a change to bring in a more expensive player who produced less.

 

Tootoo was the best choice to be bought out.  It shows that the Wings are a high class organization by assisting Tootoo at getting another shot in the NHL by releasing him early.  Other players will take note.


Edited by Nightfall, 20 June 2014 - 09:35 PM.

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#76 DeGraa55

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 10:43 PM

 
Every player goes downward as they get older.  That being said, buying him out at this stage accomplishes nothing.  We have can't get his production from anyone currently in the system.  No one who has the skill to produce like Franzen is going to sign here for less than $6 million a season and for a term that is as long as Franzen.  Then we will be in the same boat we are in today.  A veteran like Vanek that is going to demand more money to produce less and then keep producing less as he gets older.
 
So, in that situation, I would rather pay $4 to Franzen and just keep him going until the expiration of his contract.  By the end of it, the salary cap will be high enough where aging veterans will be getting paid the same as he is right now.
 
Holland made the right call here.  If he would have bought Franzen out, he would have gotten his balls cut off for sure.  Especially when he would have made a change to bring in a more expensive player who produced less.
 
Tootoo was the best choice to be bought out.  It shows that the Wings are a high class organization by assisting Tootoo at getting another shot in the NHL by releasing him early.  Other players will take note.


I bet nyquist and/or Tatar could. Maybe even jurco.

Plus those guys try and contribute in other ways.

#77 Richdg

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 07:37 AM

 

Every player goes downward as they get older.  That being said, buying him out at this stage accomplishes nothing.  We have can't get his production from anyone currently in the system.  No one who has the skill to produce like Franzen is going to sign here for less than $6 million a season and for a term that is as long as Franzen.  Then we will be in the same boat we are in today.  A veteran like Vanek that is going to demand more money to produce less and then keep producing less as he gets older.

 

So, in that situation, I would rather pay $4 to Franzen and just keep him going until the expiration of his contract.  By the end of it, the salary cap will be high enough where aging veterans will be getting paid the same as he is right now.

 

Holland made the right call here.  If he would have bought Franzen out, he would have gotten his balls cut off for sure.  Especially when he would have made a change to bring in a more expensive player who produced less.

 

Tootoo was the best choice to be bought out.  It shows that the Wings are a high class organization by assisting Tootoo at getting another shot in the NHL by releasing him early.  Other players will take note.

You and others defending Franzen/keeping him are making circular arguements. "we can't buy him out because we don't have anyone better". That is BS. After the Rags bought out Richards who out performed Franzen this year in every way, your point holds less water. Richards is younger, doesn't have a concussion history, played more games, scored more goals, had more points, and yet the Rags REALIZED their mistake and bought him out. Why? Because they knew this was their best chance to get out from under his bad contract. They now have a roster spot open and cap room to go out and get better players. I know it is pretty complicated. Cut the crap and bring in better players. Wonder why our GM can't seem to figure this out.



#78 wings4thecup06

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 08:02 AM

You and others defending Franzen/keeping him are making circular arguements. "we can't buy him out because we don't have anyone better". That is BS. After the Rags bought out Richards who out performed Franzen this year in every way, your point holds less water. Richards is younger, doesn't have a concussion history, played more games, scored more goals, had more points, and yet the Rags REALIZED their mistake and bought him out. Why? Because they knew this was their best chance to get out from under his bad contract. They now have a roster spot open and cap room to go out and get better players. I know it is pretty complicated. Cut the crap and bring in better players. Wonder why our GM can't seem to figure this out.

 

1) Richards had $2million+ per year extra on his contract than does Franzen. Paying nearly $7 million for a support player is a hell of a lot worse than paying $4 million

 

2) If we bought out Franzen, who realistically, are we going to get those goals from? 1 individual it definitely will not come from. If you want KH to find someone through free agency or trades, then we're either going to sacrifice a massive amount of cap space (by signing say Vanek for $7million which he isn't worth) or give up a sh** ton of prospects just to acquire someone good enough to score 30 goals. So why would you do that when you have someone, inspire of their flaws, who does those things, yet at a price that allows this team to have cap flexibility? 


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#79 Richdg

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 08:28 AM

 

1) Richards had $2million+ per year extra on his contract than does Franzen. Paying nearly $7 million for a support player is a hell of a lot worse than paying $4 million

 

2) If we bought out Franzen, who realistically, are we going to get those goals from? 1 individual it definitely will not come from. If you want KH to find someone through free agency or trades, then we're either going to sacrifice a massive amount of cap space (by signing say Vanek for $7million which he isn't worth) or give up a sh** ton of prospects just to acquire someone good enough to score 30 goals. So why would you do that when you have someone, inspire of their flaws, who does those things, yet at a price that allows this team to have cap flexibility? 

16/17 goals is not that hard to replace. If there was no Franzen we would have 15/16 million in cap space to find replacements. That is more than enough to bring in 2 big time contracts/players. be it as UFA's or via trades. Yes you give up prospects, so what? 2 out of 3 fail to turn into anything. What did we give up to get Shanahan again? A 25 year old C that played a 200ft game and was coming off of a 26 goal season.


Edited by Richdg, 21 June 2014 - 08:41 AM.


#80 puckloo39

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 08:31 AM

Toots can move to Tampa Bay with Brad Richards and Valtteri, and play great and make the Wings look bad.  LOL~  With St. Louis gone, TB needs another little dude like Jordin.  Best wishes, Toots, I liked you as a Wing.


Edited by puckloo39, 21 June 2014 - 08:31 AM.

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