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TheDetroitRedWings

Alfie informs Wings he wants to return

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Well I would be perfectly happy with Holland making the Kesler deal this Friday, then signing Niskanen Wednesday...along with Morris. Sure we'd lose Helm, Smith and our 1st (rumored, may be different) for Kesler, but our kids are here, Niskanen can be top 2 on this team, especially having to give up Smith and Morris will make this D harder to play against. Kesler would top 35 goals playing with Dats and Z, maybe 40. He's make our PP a better unit as well.

There are some names for you. subtract Helm, Smith, Kindl and our 1st from this team, add Kesler, Niskanen and Morris and we are already leaps better.

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Well I would be perfectly happy with Holland making the Kesler deal this Friday, then signing Niskanen Wednesday...along with Morris. Sure we'd lose Helm, Smith and our 1st (rumored, may be different) for Kesler, but our kids are here, Niskanen can be top 2 on this team, especially having to give up Smith and Morris will make this D harder to play against. Kesler would top 35 goals playing with Dats and Z, maybe 40. He's make our PP a better unit as well.

There are some names for you. subtract Helm, Smith, Kindl and our 1st from this team, add Kesler, Niskanen and Morris and we are already leaps better.

But I'm not actually sure we are though if you do that. You're essentially making our D worse initially by removing Brendan Smith (who IMO, will have a better season next year and be more consistent and develop into the top 4 D man and possibly more that everyone expected) and you've also subtracted arguably our best defensive forward in Helm, who in spite of a few freak injuries, would have played alot more. We all talk about how speed is a good thing to have, so by removing Helm that helps us how exactly?

And by signing Niskanen what are we actually gaining? Because all we'd be doing is overpaying for a pseudo-top4 defenseman who's going to strike it lucky on the free agent market because his offensive numbers jumped by a mediocre 11 points over his career best and he appears to be the best D man on the market.

So, the need isn't there. Ok cool. Glad you agree with me that we need to miss the playoffs and draft in the top 10. That is the path we are on right now. There is not enough talent in this organization today to win a cup, and IMHO even to continue to make the playoffs. So we can do 2 things. Continue on this path a crash out, or pick up stars now. Stars cost talent to get. 2-3 mid level prospects to get one star.

I don't want to be pedantic, but I most certainly didn't agree with you. I feel there is the talent within the organisation to win the cup if they allow the kids to develop the right way and supplement them with the right support at the right time so everyone can maximise their potential. That might be next March, it could be the following season, or even the one after.

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No what I said is you have to get top talent. Of the last 20 teams that won the SC, 70% of them had 4 or more top 10 picks on their roster when they won the cup. That is the proven path to winning. You can do that 3 ways: draft, trade, or UFA. Very few make it to ufa anymore so that leaves 2 options: draft and/or trade. Hoilland doesn't seem to have the guts or desire (whatever it is) to make trades. That leaves one option: the draft. To get top 10 picks and the premium talent you have to not make the playoffs. Or have bad seasons.

We are done with a 20 year run or so. But we were really bad for a long time. It was when we started to draft well, with a purpose, and develop the young talent that we started to win. yes we have some luck along the way and did things others were not doing like scout/draft eastern euros/russians. But the team from 95 through 02 was loaded with guys that were top 10 picks for various teams. Yzerman doesn't come if we don't lose. same with lapointe and Premieau. Prems of course becomes Shanny another top 10 pick. Not to mention picks up like Murphy and Ward.

Now of course there are exceptions to every rule. Our 08 team was one of them. But that is also why that teams core players have only won one cup.

It is just incredibly flawed that you think the only path to winning is to tank and get a top 10 pick.

First of all, even if we take your 4 top 10 requirement, you said yourself we can get them by trading and we've amassed a lot of tradable prospects.

Second of all, you're equating top 10 picks with top talent, which is false. Dats and Zetterberg are certainly better than most top 10 picks. Mantha probably should have been top 10. There's a lot of top talent elsewhere in the draft. We've got some of the best scouts, so we use that. People say that the time of draft steals are over, but look at where we got Marchenko for instance. Another thing is that we focused on development. A top 10 pick left to his own can flop, a lower pick with the right guidance and support can be just as good.

Third, how do you actually want to implement this tanking operation, because our roster as is will make the playoffs unless we turn into a MASH unit again? Are we going to sell off our older players, like Dats, Z, Kronwall, etc? In that case, we'd end up like Edmonton with top picks and no one to show them the way. We'd also lose a huge amount of respect as an organization and UFAs would take notice. Babcock would leave, Kenny would get fired and we'd have a lesser GM come in and totally change the very plan that you were working on. Do we sell off our budding young talent like Nyquist, Tatar, Mantha, Dekeyser, etc? Players that could become as any top 10 pick we might get. Do we just have a team meeting and say "now you must suck"?

Anyway, I see you're posts as understandably frustrated, but I really feel that the team is rebuilding and doing it in a way that will make us competitive for a long time. We're not doing trades because we're building up our prospects and keeping our draft picks. We have about a full roster worth of NHL worthy prospects (I include young players already on the team). We'll get even more at this next draft. We'll let them fight it out for their places in our future and then we can start trading some of them for other pieces.

So, Alfredsson...

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But I'm not actually sure we are though if you do that. You're essentially making our D worse initially by removing Brendan Smith (who IMO, will have a better season next year and be more consistent and develop into the top 4 D man and possibly more that everyone expected) and you've also subtracted arguably our best defensive forward in Helm, who in spite of a few freak injuries, would have played alot more. We all talk about how speed is a good thing to have, so by removing Helm that helps us how exactly?

And by signing Niskanen what are we actually gaining? Because all we'd be doing is overpaying for a pseudo-top4 defenseman who's going to strike it lucky on the free agent market because his offensive numbers jumped by a mediocre 11 points over his career best and he appears to be the best D man on the market.

It seems like you're saying we'd be worse by swapping a "potential top four" in Smith for a legitimate top four in Niskanen (who's demonstrably better offensively and defensively than Smith), and "one of our best defensive forwards" in Helm for a Selke winner.

Of course we'd be better with Kesler and Niskanen. If there's even a doubt about that then I have no idea what to say to you.

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Everyone thought WIz was overpaid at the time...but now he is a very well paid d-man who again is putting up some great points PLUS is RH'd and sticks up for his teammates....really wish in hindsight that Holland would have given Wiz that money instead of Columbus giving it to him.

I think Niskanen would thrive here (there is always the possibility of faultering, but odds are he won't.) Holland should go after him hard.

Also another note on Alfie...how effective is he going to be on the 4th line? If Holland gets his #1 scorer via trade or UFA, then signs Alfie where is he going to go?

Z - D - UFA/Trade

Nyquist - Weiss - Franzen

Jurco - Sheahan - Tatar

Miller - Helm - Abdelkader

He will probably bump Miller to the 13th forward, but still, unless Franzen gets demoted (or traded (PLEASE!!!)) Alfie is on the 4th line...Babcock better not put Jurco/Tatar/Nyquist on that 4th line! CRAP! I forgot about Glendening too! See...this is bad on all points. Alfie is going to take up a roster spot that needs to be upgraded! It's just a bad idea...I never wish injury on someone, but I do hope he decides to retire due to nagging ones...

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It seems like you're saying we'd be worse by swapping a "potential top four" in Smith for a legitimate top four in Niskanen (who's demonstrably better offensively and defensively than Smith), and "one of our best defensive forwards" in Helm for a Selke winner.

Of course we'd be better with Kesler and Niskanen. If there's even a doubt about that then I have no idea what to say to you.

Personally I'd take Smith over Niskanen. Smith has more potential IMO, and I think Niskanen has been hyped tremendously because he's the best free agent D man. That's not to say he isn't good. But he's definitely not worth $6 million a year. Dollars aren't everything, but I think Smith has the potential to end up a better D man.

And Kesler is good yes, but wouldn't you rather have both him and Helm? I know I would.

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Personally I'd take Smith over Niskanen. Smith has more potential IMO, and I think Niskanen has been hyped tremendously because he's the best free agent D man. That's not to say he isn't good. But he's definitely not worth $6 million a year. Dollars aren't everything, but I think Smith has the potential to end up a better D man.

And Kesler is good yes, but wouldn't you rather have both him and Helm? I know I would.

Lol. You're changing your tune. Previously you said we'd be worse off with Kesler and Niskanen than Smith and Helm. I'm not going to argue about Smith's potential, everybody knows how I feel about that. But at the very least it's clear that right now, at their respective levels of development, Smith is not better than Niskanen. At all.

Likewise, I wouldn't argue that it would always be better to have BOTH Kesler and Helm. But that's not what you said. You insinuated that we'd be worse because Helm is one of our best defensive forwards. But we'd be replacing him with one of the best defensive forwards in the league.

You're entitled to your opinion. Obviously. But if we swapped Smith and Helm for Niskanen and Kesler we'd be a better team overnight. And we'd stay a better team for the forseeable future barring some freakish developmental jumps from Smith and Helm that (so far in their careers) they've not shown they were capable of. For instance, let Smith score 20 NHL points in one season before we anoint him the next big puck mover. Niskanen did that and more as a 20 year old rookie.

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Lol. You're changing your tune. Previously you said we'd be worse off with Kesler and Niskanen than Smith and Helm. I'm not going to argue about Smith's potential, everybody knows how I feel about that. But at the very least it's clear that right now, at their respective levels of development, Smith is not better than Niskanen. At all.

Likewise, I wouldn't argue that it would always be better to have BOTH Kesler and Helm. But that's not what you said. You insinuated that we'd be worse because Helm is one of our best defensive forwards. But we'd be replacing him with one of the best defensive forwards in the league.

You're entitled to your opinion. Obviously. But if we swapped Smith and Helm for Niskanen and Kesler we'd be a better team overnight. And we'd stay a better team for the forseeable future barring some freakish developmental jumps from Smith and Helm that (so far in their careers) they've not shown they were capable of. For instance, let Smith score 20 NHL points in one season before we anoint him the next big puck mover. Niskanen did that and more as a 20 year old rookie.

Fair enough. I guess with Smith vs Niskanen I'm thinking of all the areas here - contract, age, skills, potential etc. And for that I think we'd be better in the long run with Smith over Niskanen.

While you are right that we'd be a better team right now, I guess I just don't like the idea of parting with a guy like Helm just to replace him with a guy like Kesler when we could be a stronger team with both and moving other assets to get Kesler. I think Helm's a bit underrated around here and people give him a bad rap because for the last 2 years he hasn't been healthy, but when he is he's been great. I just think that we might be a better team in the future keeping what we've got rather than adding an overrated D man (IMO) whom we could easily replace with a combination of Smith and our up and coming D men (Sproul etc). Kesler though, would be a welcome addition, although again I think for me it would have to depend on the cost.

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Fair enough. I guess with Smith vs Niskanen I'm thinking of all the areas here - contract, age, skills, potential etc. And for that I think we'd be better in the long run with Smith over Niskanen.

While you are right that we'd be a better team right now, I guess I just don't like the idea of parting with a guy like Helm just to replace him with a guy like Kesler when we could be a stronger team with both and moving other assets to get Kesler. I think Helm's a bit underrated around here and people give him a bad rap because for the last 2 years he hasn't been healthy, but when he is he's been great. I just think that we might be a better team in the future keeping what we've got rather than adding an overrated D man (IMO) whom we could easily replace with a combination of Smith and our up and coming D men (Sproul etc). Kesler though, would be a welcome addition, although again I think for me it would have to depend on the cost.

Well to be really honest, we're not getting either Niskanen or Kesler so it really doesn't matter. I just wanted to make sure we didn't understate how much they'd help our team return to competitiveness.

We'll probably get Alfie and Robidas instead. So I don't know why I care.

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Well to be really honest, we're not getting either Niskanen or Kesler so it really doesn't matter. I just wanted to make sure we didn't understate how much they'd help our team return to competitiveness.

We'll probably get Alfie and Robidas instead. So I don't know why I care.

Don't be silly. In magical LGW fan-boy land, we're gettng both.

Holland will lock up Niskanen to 7 years 49M because godddammit I want a new toy!!!!!

And then he'll zap Kesler's brain, making him want to come to Detroit instead of just Anaheim or Chicago (as is rumored) then he'll give Vancouver Mantha, Sproul, Tatar, and 1st, just to prove to the LGWs faithful that he does, in fact, have ballz.

The everyone will ***** about overpayment and junk. Ad ******* naseum.

(this isn't targeted specifically at you Kip)

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Everyone thought WIz was overpaid at the time...but now he is a very well paid d-man who again is putting up some great points PLUS is RH'd and sticks up for his teammates....really wish in hindsight that Holland would have given Wiz that money instead of Columbus giving it to him.

I think Niskanen would thrive here (there is always the possibility of faultering, but odds are he won't.) Holland should go after him hard.

Also another note on Alfie...how effective is he going to be on the 4th line? If Holland gets his #1 scorer via trade or UFA, then signs Alfie where is he going to go?

Z - D - UFA/Trade

Nyquist - Weiss - Franzen

Jurco - Sheahan - Tatar

Miller - Helm - Abdelkader

He will probably bump Miller to the 13th forward, but still, unless Franzen gets demoted (or traded (PLEASE!!!)) Alfie is on the 4th line...Babcock better not put Jurco/Tatar/Nyquist on that 4th line! CRAP! I forgot about Glendening too! See...this is bad on all points. Alfie is going to take up a roster spot that needs to be upgraded! It's just a bad idea...I never wish injury on someone, but I do hope he decides to retire due to nagging ones...

Yes, a guy that has already missed over 60 games since signing that contract three years ago and is injured every year. Just what we need.

Do you even bother doing research before you say things?

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Well to be really honest, we're not getting either Niskanen or Kesler so it really doesn't matter. I just wanted to make sure we didn't understate how much they'd help our team return to competitiveness.

We'll probably get Alfie and Robidas instead. So I don't know why I care.

True. As good as it would be to get Kesler, I honestly think the asking price will be too high for KH. What that is though, remains to be seen.

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Back to Alfie, is it realistic to think we could land both he and Iginla? Has anyone heard how much Iginla is asking for? And would anyone support this? It would most likely mean the end of Cleary, which can only be a good thing

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Yes, a guy that has already missed over 60 games since signing that contract three years ago and is injured every year. Just what we need.

Do you even bother doing research before you say things?

Wisniewski had more points this year than anybody on our team. He had more Powerplay points than 2/3 of our team had total points. I'd take him.

Plus, it's not like being injury proneness disqualifies you from being a Red Wing. If that were the case we'd need to trade of about 99% of our roster.

Edited by kipwinger

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Manx, Manx, Manx....Wiz played 75 games last season and had 51 points a few ahead of Kronner and nearly 30 points ahead of the next guy...rookie Danny D. He only makes $750,000 more than Kronner and $1.25M more than the oft injured Ericsson...my point being, even though everyone said $5.5M was way too much for Wiz back then, he is now leading his team and outplaying all of our defenders...he also shoots right and fights for his teammates...which Kronner (who never kronwalls anymore) and Ericsson NEVER do...Wiz was only injured for less than 40 games the first season he signed in Columbus...he played 30 games in the lockout season and 75 last season...

Yes, I do my research...do you think twice before you attack someone to try to look cool?

Edited by LeftWinger

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Back to Alfie, is it realistic to think we could land both he and Iginla? Has anyone heard how much Iginla is asking for? And would anyone support this? It would most likely mean the end of Cleary, which can only be a good thing

I would personally prefer one or the other (Iginla being first), but Alfie isn't going to play anywhere but Detroit. I read somewhere earlier that the Wings could go after Iginla on July 1st should he not re-sign with Boston and then offer Alfie a contract further down the line contingent on his health. I am not a huge fan of having both because to me that means Jurco is certainly going to Grand Rapids. The Wings just won't walk away from Alfie though even if they do somehow sign Iginla.

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Time for a Reality Check.

1. Iginla isn't coming to Detroit. Why in the hell would he at this late stage in his career when he would have very little chance at winning a Cup?

2. If healthy, the Wings will resign Alfie. The Swedes want him and KH loves Swedes and vets.

3. Management will do whatever it feels necessary to make the playoffs again. The team will not tank. The team will not commit 100% to youth. Management will not give up on the streak.

Adjust your expectations accordingly.

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Manx, Manx, Manx....Wiz played 75 games last season and had 51 points a few ahead of Kronner and nearly 30 points ahead of the next guy...rookie Danny D. He only makes $750,000 more than Kronner and $1.25M more than the oft injured Ericsson...my point being, even though everyone said $5.5M was way too much for Wiz back then, he is now leading his team and outplaying all of our defenders...he also shoots right and fights for his teammates...which Kronner (who never kronwalls anymore) and Ericsson NEVER do...Wiz was only injured for less than 40 games the first season he signed in Columbus...he played 30 games in the lockout season and 75 last season...

Yes, I do my research...do you think twice before you attack someone to try to look cool?

Did you read what I wrote? In the last 3 years he has missed over 60 games since signing the contract, you are cherry picking your arguments.

Wiz is not better then Kronner, who cares about points? If you think Wiz is better then Kronner you are cheering for the wrong team. You also can't compare him to Ericsson because he is a defensive d-men and I would take Big E over Wiz anyday. If all your looking at is points, sure Wiz had more points but it doesn't equate to thebetter player, ala Letang and Karlsson are not better then Weber.

Asking you if you do any research is not an attack, it's a serious question. I already know the answer to that question now though.

Edited by darkmanx

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Wiz hits, stands up for his teammates, right handed, none of which Kronwall or Ericsson do...and he outscores them...you can have E, I'll take the better player. You don't need to research if the answer is obvious.

Wiz also stated the Wings don't pay free agents market value, so there was likely very little chance of him signing in Detroit. Comparing Wiz and E isn't fair either, as they are two completely different players. E is the Wings best defensive d-man on a team that is a wreck in their own zone. That's quite valuable in itself.

Edited by GoWings1905

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