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Kesler traded to Anaheim


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#41 RedWingsRox

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 09:22 AM

Super happy he didn't include Detroit in the list ... he is a me first kind of player, team mates voted someone else the A last year, basically stripping it away from him.  So he pouted all year and wanted to be traded.  Then he only gives GM 2 teams.  

 

I saw plenty of coverage that reported the list Kesler originally gave Gillis during the season had 6 teams on it: Anaheim, Chicago, Colorado, Detroit, Pittsburgh, & Tampa Bay.  From everything I've seen, the "only Anaheim or Chicago" scenarios came into play because those were the only two teams still in discussions with Benning.

 

 To my knowledge, that was at last year's trade deadline with Gillis.  When Benning took over, his agent said Chicago or Anaheim.


Edited by RedWingsRox, 28 June 2014 - 09:25 AM.


#42 wings87

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 09:31 AM

 
Because he didn't want to come here. Nothing Holland could have done. It was either Chicago or Anaheim.


I wasn't referring specifically to Kesler, I meant making a trade for an impact player still in his prime. These guys seem to get traded every year, and we're always on the outside looking in.

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#43 frankgrimes

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 09:47 AM

I wasn't referring specifically to Kesler, I meant making a trade for an impact player still in his prime. These guys seem to get traded every year, and we're always on the outside looking in.

 

If you are talking about Spezza nobody got the trade for him done because Murray's asking price seems to be way too high.


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#44 The Greek

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 10:02 AM

I'm surprised so many people want kesler on the wings. He has been pretty much invisible, when not injured, since '11.

#45 wings87

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 11:31 AM

 

If you are talking about Spezza nobody got the trade for him done because Murray's asking price seems to be way too high.

 

No not any specific player, but ever since the salary cap was instituted, countless impact players have been traded, as well as the rights to some good UFA's, and we haven't been a part of it. This is the perfect year to make a trade with the free agent market having a down year.


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#46 frankgrimes

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 12:42 PM

 

No not any specific player, but ever since the salary cap was instituted, countless impact players have been traded, as well as the rights to some good UFA's, and we haven't been a part of it. This is the perfect year to make a trade with the free agent market having a down year.

 

Look I'm not disagreeing with you and like I've stated over ando ver again I think  the Wings being of the premier teams (Original 6 baby), should be ifrontrunners on a every top UFA that fills a need for us, like we used to back in the days.


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#47 Playmaker

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 01:34 PM

 I'll try again.  Who were these top free agents that filled all these needs?  Mike Modano?  Dallas Drake?  Jason Williams?  Derian Hatcher?  Uwe Krupp?  Steve Duschene?

 

Hull and Robitaille?  Yeah, we had a great team and we were able to add a couple of aging veterans who could rack up stats playing with other equally good players.  There also was no cap then.  That's why we could have a guy like Robitaille be our 3rd line center. 

 

Marian Hossa?  We've discussed his situation.  Not typical.

 

Brian Rafalski.  Another aging vet and Michigan native who we had the space to sign after Mathieu Schnieder left.

 

Who are all these other big name free agents we signed in their prime that filled needs for us?

 

It's funny when Holland signed aging veterans before, he was a genius, and now he's an idiot for wanting old guys. 

 

If there's some major free agent I'm missing, clue me in. 

 

I hate to break it to you, but EVERY year is going to be a weak free agent market.  Players are signing long term deals, the "home team" gets an advantage and the cap levels the playing field on what other teams can offer. 

 

Enough of the countless signings and impact players and all those guys we used to get.  Name names.  Give examples. 



#48 Internet.Unknown

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 01:38 PM


Who are all these other big name free agents we signed in their prime that filled needs for us?

 

Umm ... Bob Rouse? :lol: 



#49 Mckinley25

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 02:08 PM

 I'll try again.  Who were these top free agents that filled all these needs?  Mike Modano?  Dallas Drake?  Jason Williams?  Derian Hatcher?  Uwe Krupp?  Steve Duschene?
 
Hull and Robitaille?  Yeah, we had a great team and we were able to add a couple of aging veterans who could rack up stats playing with other equally good players.  There also was no cap then.  That's why we could have a guy like Robitaille be our 3rd line center. 
 
Marian Hossa?  We've discussed his situation.  Not typical.
 
Brian Rafalski.  Another aging vet and Michigan native who we had the space to sign after Mathieu Schnieder left.
 
Who are all these other big name free agents we signed in their prime that filled needs for us?
 
It's funny when Holland signed aging veterans before, he was a genius, and now he's an idiot for wanting old guys. 
 
If there's some major free agent I'm missing, clue me in. 
 
I hate to break it to you, but EVERY year is going to be a weak free agent market.  Players are signing long term deals, the "home team" gets an advantage and the cap levels the playing field on what other teams can offer. 
 
Enough of the countless signings and impact players and all those guys we used to get.  Name names.  Give examples. 


Agreed, some of the best moves we made over the years were trades.

Shannahan, Hasek, Igor, Lang, Stuart, Chelios etc.

Though it was exciting when Cujo signed with us.

#50 wings4thecup06

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 04:04 PM

Agreed, some of the best moves we made over the years were trades.

Shannahan, Hasek, Igor, Lang, Stuart, Chelios etc.

Though it was exciting when Cujo signed with us.

 

I'm agreeing with everyone except there's an elephant in the room in your list…...

 

Lang??? Don't get me wrong, he played alright, but I didn't think he was anything special. 


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#51 Mckinley25

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 04:34 PM

 
I'm agreeing with everyone except there's an elephant in the room in your list...
 
Lang??? Don't get me wrong, he played alright, but I didn't think he was anything special. 


At the time of the trade he was leading the league in points though he didn't finish that high.

While we didn't get a cup with him I thought it was a smart trade.

#52 VM1138

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 05:31 PM

Yeah, Lang helped. I'm surprised Rafalski's signing is not being considered a big signing. He may have been aging but he was still a blockbuster signing as one of the best defenders in the league. Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2
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#53 gcom007

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 09:55 PM

I'll ask again, and maybe get an answer from some of the "Not a destination franchise" conspiracy theorists.  I think fans think if they repeat it enough times it will make it so.  The facts just don't support it.

 

Who are all these high quality players who have refused to play for the Red Wings?  Kesler didn't have Boston on his list, does that make them not a "Destination Franchise".  He didn't have the LA Kings,  you know the team that's won two of the past three Stanley Cups?  I guess they aren't a destination franchise either.  

 

All the same fans bemoaning the loss of getting Kesler were the same ones whining we didn't get Bobby Ryan.  How'd that work out for Ottawa?  Made them a contender, eh?  Luckily for Ryan, they were a destination franchise with a history of winning and a bright future.  

 

Who were all these big name free agents that the Wings signed year in and year out before?  

 

Do I like all the moves that Holland has made?  No.  But fans expect Holland to keep all the youth, keep all the stars, and still trade for top quality talent and sign every free agent on the market all while having low draft picks year after year.  

 

No franchise, in any sport, is a contender every single year for decades at a time.   Get over it.  

 

I specifically said that I don't give a rats ass about Kesler and that you can't blame Holland for not getting Kesler when we clearly had no chance based on Kesler's list. I'm honestly glad we didn't get him because I don't think he'd make the kind of difference we really need and hopefully at this point people will stop obsessing over the possibility of trading for him. I only got into the matter in this thread because rick zombo, one who speaks up on Holland's behalf almost as much as many others criticize him, touched on the very thing that I think ultimately summarizes the problem with Ken Holland's management of this team over the last five years. It just continues to boggle my mind how people can see the problem that we now have and not look at the big picture and question how it came to this.

 

Believe me, I am the last person who thinks it's realistic to be able to sign all the stars for cheap, draft high, take advantage of killer lopsided trades in our favor, and so on. I get that you don't win every year. I get that you're not a contender every year.

 

But five years ago, and for many years beforehand, we were easily one of the top 3-4 destination teams year in and year out. We'd be on most players lists who had NTCs. We'd have a fair shot at signing free agents who want to be part of a franchise that goes for it every year. Sure, it was still absurd to expect to sign everybody and trade for everybody, and I never suggested otherwise at the time, but like I said, we were in a much better position to do so relative to the position we're in now.

 

It'd be one thing if you could say that we're still up there near the top, because no matter what, it was going to be harder to have the kind of teams we had at the start of the cap era when we were able to pay elite players like Dats and Z far less than they would ultimately be worth when they would eventually sign deals as UFAs. I get that and respect that and I'm totally fine with that because in all honesty, I think the parity that the cap has brought really has made hockey more exciting in general. But we're no where near the top anymore; we're lucky to be floating around the middle, and it's becoming ever more debatable how much we deserve to even be there.

 

When you really stop to think of where this team was at five years ago, it's truly shocking that we have fallen as far as we have. We were a fresh Cup winner, and came within one goal of winning back to back Cups. We were a team that people wanted to be a part of, and despite the fact that the cap era has minimized the leverage any one team can have, we still had what little of it was left to be had, and it's an incredible benefit more than ever in the cap era. And we also had a fair amount of mid-level talent that we ultimately could've afforded to move in order to make deals that might have solidified the future of this team. But that's where much of the problem began.

 

We had tremendous luck with some of our low draft picks over the years, and I think it's fair to say that it might've caused management to become a little overly confident about certain guys. It's hard to even hold it against them though when you look at the string of luck we had. But whether or not some of the guys we got hung up on had even developed into the types of players they hoped they'd be, we had other needs to account for, and we no longer had the ability to buy our way out of a dilemma in the cap era. We also had golden opportunities to lock up already developed talent that we let slip away because we didn't want to part with younger players or prospects. In the cap era, you've got to give something up to get something in return, and we had assets to move. Sure, it'd sting if we moved a guy that went on to become another Datsyuk, but if you do so in order to bring in elite talent, or you do so to bring in people who can bridge the gap between the Lidstrom era and the post-Lidstrom era, you've got to make the move. You can't sit by idly waiting for Lidstrom to retire while hoping every draft pick turns into a star, but that's basically exactly what Holland did, and look where we're at now.

 

Holland didn't prepare for the future, plain and simple. He dropped the ball. Whatever plans he may or may not have had do not matter, because the bottom line is nothing happened. We watched three of our top four defensemen leave in the span of one year, and Holland to this day has failed to address even a Stuart-sized hole.

 

For the love, you go on about how it's ridiculous to think that we can sign everyone and give up nothing and basically run a team like it's a video game, but are you really going to sit on that high horse and suggest that at some point in the last five years, Holland couldn't have found a way to at least sign or trade for a defenseman that's on the same level as Stuart??? And do you want to tell me that even something such as that would be asking too much, despite the fact that he's the least talented of the defensemen we lost?

 

I know I get wordy when I post (spending too many years as a history major screwed me over for life when it comes to being concise...), but I really don't think you are at all recognizing the simple point I'm making nor the fact that I'm not at all whining about a failure to land elite guys. What bothers me is that he can't even find a way to bring in good mid-level guys, and on top of that, the mediocre mid-level guys he keeps bringing in have mostly been colossal flops that amounted to cap space being burned for nothing. And the only thing that bothers me about Holland not wanting to overpay for elite players is that he says these things and then goes on to overpay for mid-level players that literally do nothing to help this team.

 

And most of them are forwards!!!

 

We still haven't filled a single hole on defense with a meaningful player that one could compare to Stuart, and we keep blowing money on completely ineffective forwards.

 

For five years now, this team has been slipping, and Holland truly seems to be at a loss as to how to at all slow it down. Please, give me some examples of things that he's done that have made the team better and added some stability that can be relied upon to help the team over the next 3-4 years. What has he done in the last five years, while the team has gone from being at the top of the league to barely floating in the middle, to suggest that he is leading this club in the right direction?

 

Again, believe me, I know full well that you have to be a fool to think that anyone could pull off a tenth of what some of the crazy fans expect out of the GM, but five years into this slide, I think it takes another sort of fool to think that Holland isn't largely responsible for the pace of this team's free fall into mediocrity. Even if you were to be completely objective with an extra dose of generosity, I don't think you could come close to finding as many good moves and decisions Holland has made in the last five years compared to his bad moves, his missed opportunities, and his inability to follow through on any sort of transition plan. And he's supposed to be the best GM in the league? Absolutely, without a single solitary shred of doubt, he has not come even remotely close to being the best GM in the league over the last five years.

 

At some point the excuses have to end, and it needs to be very, very, very soon. Just as Rafalski's retirement should've been a wakeup call to start building a transition bridge for the defense, Z's back injury should be a wakeup call that we need to be start building a transition bridge for offense and perhaps more importantly, leadership. If he thinks it's been hard to deal with the struggles of the last three years, I shudder to think of how he'll react to the struggles to come as we near the end of Datsyuk's and Zetterberg's careers.

 

I won't say that he doesn't have it in him to be a great GM somewhere, but I simply can't find a reason to say that I believe he has it in him to be an effective GM of the Detroit Red Wings anymore. Believe me, I wish I could, as I have nothing against him personally. But five years into an ongoing free fall from elite status to mediocrity marked by far more bad moves than good ones leaves me little hope of him turning it around. I'm not saying he's incapable of it, and it's totally reasonable to believe that maybe he will find a way of turning it around. Even I can admit that it's totally possible and that he has the general knowledge and skill level to do it, but at some point he's got to prove he still has the nerve and foresight to run this team well in the cap era, and if he can't do that very, very, very soon, he needs to be replaced.


Edited by gcom007, 28 June 2014 - 10:05 PM.

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#54 jimmyemeryhunter

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 10:15 PM

@gcom007
I dont necessarily disagree with your points, just the conclusion youre coming to.

Five years ago our core players were in the midst of the prime of the careers, and we had arguably the best defenseman ofall time on the back end..
Realistically, noone would be able to replace half of what Lidstrom did night in and out, and anyone that would come close would eat up HUGE chunk of our cap space.

It'd be nice to have brought in Big names sure, but we've been successful for so long and brought in so Many outside guys it depleted the farm team, which in the parity days IS A NECESSITY to stand a chance of having any kind of sustainable success..

Yeah kh had made a few absolutely abysmal choices, but he's a huge part of the reason we have a team that can basically roll our ahl team onto the ice and still be competitive, all while were stocking talent.

So were not THE destination for free agents anymore.
Free agency isnt what it once was because of the cap, why not take the extra year and millions of dollars to stay in a comfortable place.

don't get me wrong.
I Really, really, really want z to win a cup as captain, and datsyuk deserves at least a few more.
but there's still going to be a salary cap when they're gone, we need to keep the kids rolling through so were not handcuffed like Pittsburgh is with Crosby and malkin.
Or like chicago could be if the reports on Kane and toews are true.

And when z retires, weve got danny Dekeyser, Gustav nyquist, Tatar....there will be plenty of options to be C, not even mentioning the talent coming up.


At some point reasons need to stop being referred to as excuses by those who don't understand the explanation.

And for all your disheveled statements about holland preparing for datsyuk and z, youre telling him to go out and build a bridge when weve got half a room full of kids who build dams.

Edited by jimmyemeryhunter, 28 June 2014 - 11:21 PM.


#55 jimmyemeryhunter

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 11:46 PM

And I'm "another sort of fool," because i don't believe Holland's the biggest reason for the decline?

Ken Holland is not a magical creature.
He can not heal injuries with a wave of a wand,
nor magic dust, which he does have,
But he sprinkles that on the countless interns and assistants that end up becoming head coaches and gms.

Ken Holland is not father time.
He can not stop the aging process of some, nor can He can speed up the maturing process of others.

#56 DeGraa55

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 11:51 PM

And I'm "another sort of fool," because i don't believe Holland's the biggest reason for the decline?

Ken Holland is not a magical creature.
He can not heal injuries with a wave of a wand,
nor magic dust, which he does have,
But he sprinkles that on the countless interns and assistants that end up becoming head coaches and gms.

Ken Holland is not father time.
He can not stop the aging process of some, nor can He can speed up the maturing process of others.

Ken holland controls which broken down old players he keeps. He decides which 35+ players to keep repeatedly bringing back. He decides to sign old aging, injury prone players to take spots away from kids.

Edited by DeGraa55, 28 June 2014 - 11:53 PM.


#57 jimmyemeryhunter

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 12:00 AM

Ken holland controls which broken down old players he keeps. He decides which 35+ players to keep repeatedly bringing back. He decides to sign old aging, injury prone players to take spots away from kids.


He signed them so he could ease those kids into the spots without overwhelming them..

Ken Hollands the reason we have those kids in the first place.

#58 DeGraa55

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 12:04 AM

He signed them so he could ease those kids into the spots without overwhelming them..

Ken Hollands the reason we have those kids in the first place.


Incorrect.


The scouts are the reason we have those kids.

#59 jimmyemeryhunter

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 12:19 AM

Incorrect.


The scouts are the reason we have those kids.


You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

The scouts don't have final say in the pick.
Ken holland does.
Also.
A lot of the scouts are ken holland hires.

Edited by jimmyemeryhunter, 29 June 2014 - 12:20 AM.


#60 Euro_Twins

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 12:21 AM

The scouts don't have final say in the pick.
Ken holland does.
Also.
A lot of the scouts are ken holland hires.


The scouts advise him. If you think Holland makes every decision on his own, you are sorely mistaken. He relies on the scouts and trusts them, and he pick players off the list they come up with together.





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