TANK IT! 2014-2015 Season

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

Yes. Seems better this year, right?

I think not having over the hill vets that fall down everywhere helps a lot.

[Barrie 900]

I guess I was in the huge minority this offseason thinking we had a very good hockey team. Holland, stayed away from overpaying for UFA's, and built a team with a lot of depth. I'm not surprised we're 4-1-2.

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

I guess I was in the huge minority this offseason thinking we had a very good hockey team. Holland, stayed away from overpaying for UFA's, and built a team with a lot of depth. I'm not surprised we're 4-1-2.

The problem is after our first line we have no depth. We have lots of 3/4 line forwards and we have kronner. Dk and Smith look pretty good so far. But the rest is meh.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

I guess I was in the huge minority this offseason thinking we had a very good hockey team. Holland, stayed away from overpaying for UFA's, and built a team with a lot of depth. I'm not surprised we're 4-1-2.

Holland deserves credit for building organizational depth through the draft, but make no mistake he tried to overpay for UFA's and just failed. Whether you think that worked out for the better is another story. He overpaid for Quincey anyways, so that has to count.

The Wings still need a top four d-man and goal-scoring winger. They didn't attempt to sign Niskanen, Boyle and Ehrhoff because they thought they were set there. While I am impressed with their start so far, it doesn't change what is needed to get to the next level yet.

Edited October 24, 2014 by GoWings1905

[Internet.Unknown 422]

I guess I was in the huge minority this offseason thinking we had a very good hockey team. Holland, stayed away from overpaying for UFA's, and built a team with a lot of depth. I'm not surprised we're 4-1-2.

You're still wrong about this. Holland tried and tried to "overpay for UFA's" but they refused to sign.

Holland deserves credit for building organizational depth through the draft, but make no mistake he tried to overpay for UFA's and just failed. Whether you think that worked out for the better is another story. He overpaid for Quincey anyways, so that has to count.

The Wings still need a top four d-man and goal-scoring winger. They didn't attempt to sign Niskanen, Boyle and Ehrhoff because they thought they were set there. While I am impressed with their start so far, it doesn't change what is needed to get to the next level yet.

I've corrected Barrie on this point numerous times over this past summer. He hasn't once responded. I'm not sure if they guy reads other folks' posts or just ignores mine.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

no honor in tanking

It's not about honor it's about longterm success, getting ahead of an already better competition. Whoever gets McEichel will have a franchise player for at least a decade and a half.

Unless Detroit trades so many good players they have no hope for several years they have no legit shot at #1 anyway.

[Guest DeGraa55]

Unless Detroit trades so many good players they have no hope for several years they have no legit shot at #1 anyway.

Ya we won't even be in the top ten for awhile...

[kliq 3,755]

You're still wrong about this. Holland tried and tried to "overpay for UFA's" but they refused to sign.

To be fair, nobody except Red Wing brass, the players themselves, and the agents know what was actually offered. I'm sure if Holland wanted to throw ridiculous amounts of money (see. washington/Brook Orpik) he could have signed some guys.

[e_prime 1,936]

To be fair, nobody except Red Wing brass, the players themselves, and the agents know what was actually offered. I'm sure if Holland wanted to throw ridiculous amounts of money (see. washington/Brook Orpik) he could have signed some guys.

He actually did throw ridiculous money at a player. (See Kyle Quincey.)

[kliq 3,755]

He actually did throw ridiculous money at a player. (See Kyle Quincey.)

I'm not going to say I like the Quincey contract because I don't, but at the end of the day its for two years, and really has no effect on this season.Niskanen's contract is for 7 years, and Orpik's contract is for 5 years. Orpik's contract was actually ranked the worst in all of hockey in an article I read recently.

[Internet.Unknown 422]

To be fair, nobody except Red Wing brass, the players themselves, and the agents know what was actually offered. I'm sure if Holland wanted to throw ridiculous amounts of money (see. washington/Brook Orpik) he could have signed some guys.

Holland threw just as much money at players as other teams. Those players signed for less or for the same money elsewhere. Barrie is acting as if Holland didn't offer such money. That's my point. Because the players didn't sign here, Barrie claims that Holland didn't try to pay them.

[number9 3,297]

Holland threw just as much money at players as other teams. Those players signed for less or for the same money elsewhere. Barrie is acting as if Holland didn't offer such money. That's my point. Because the players didn't sign here, Barrie claims that Holland didn't try to pay them.

I heard Holland tried to pay them EVEN MORE money than what they took

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Niskanen: got more from Washington and had some connections there

Ehrhoff... Wanted 5 years Holland offered 4

[kliq 3,755]

Holland threw just as much money at players as other teams. Those players signed for less or for the same money elsewhere. Barrie is acting as if Holland didn't offer such money. That's my point. Because the players didn't sign here, Barrie claims that Holland didn't try to pay them.

Niskanen, like Frank said was offered more by Washington. Erhoff wanted more term which Holland wouldnt give (plus IMO he is hoping to have a career year in Pit and then cash in next year like Niskanen).

When you say players took less, this comes from a report by I believe Ansar Khan regarding the Boyle/NYR. While the Wings did reportedly offer more money in total, they offered less per year. (3 years/12.5million @ 4.16million per, opposed to 2 years/9 million @ 4.5million per. Plus, Boyle reportedly wanted to play with St. Louis again, and he thought NYR had a better chance at a cup this year. Though i'm sure if Holland threw at him 3 years at 15million Boyle would have taken it.....but he didnt. Robidas reportedly signed in TO because it puts him closer to family, but I never heard how much Holland offered him.

Holland did make offers, but I he didnt appear to throw insane amounts at these players like other teams did (again, ala Wsh/Orpik).

[Internet.Unknown 422]

Niskanen, like Frank said was offered more by Washington. Erhoff wanted more term which Holland wouldnt give (plus IMO he is hoping to have a career year in Pit and then cash in next year like Niskanen).

When you say players took less, this comes from a report by I believe Ansar Khan regarding the Boyle/NYR. While the Wings did reportedly offer more money in total, they offered less per year. (3 years/12.5million @ 4.16million per, opposed to 2 years/9 million @ 4.5million per. Plus, Boyle reportedly wanted to play with St. Louis again, and he thought NYR had a better chance at a cup this year. Though i'm sure if Holland threw at him 3 years at 15million Boyle would have taken it.....but he didnt. Robidas reportedly signed in TO because it puts him closer to family, but I never heard how much Holland offered him.

Holland did make offers, but I he didnt appear to throw insane amounts at these players like other teams did (again, ala Wsh/Orpik).

Wow, I didn't realize you and Barrie were so important to one another. No need to defend the guy so rigorously. He's a big boy. For the record, here's a collection of Barrie's posts regarding Holland's rebuild plan and signing UFA's.

"I'm still not really sure what Holland could have done since 2009 to make things any better. We're rebuilding through the draft. With the Cap, and how over inflated the UFA market is, it's the way to go. We haven't missed out on a thing by not signing guys like Ehrhoff, Clarkson, and Wisniewski, or Suter or Parise to 13 years."

"I guess I was in the huge minority this offseason thinking we had a very good hockey team. Holland, stayed away from overpaying for UFA's, and built a team with a lot of depth. I'm not surprised we're 4-1-2."

"No worries they'll sign. Holland doesn't sign over priced UFA's for this reason. There's more then enough cap room to sign Tatar and DeKeyser, then Nyquist and Smith next off season."

"I'll take Kenny, who's building the team with the draft, isn't signing any over priced UFA's, and actually knows how the cap works."

"I think it's obvious Holland is building through the draft, and won't overpay for UFA's. Teams that build through the draft win Championships, teams that sign over priced UFA's don't."

Barrie's entire premise is based upon the false notion that Holland has refused to "overpay" UFA's since 2009. But it isn't for a lack of trying. Holland has made big, competitive, sometimes overpayment offers (Suter & Parise) to numerous players that haven't signed. That isn't Holland refusing to overpay. That's players rejecting his offers.

Holland threw just as much money at players as other teams. Those players signed for less or for the same money elsewhere. Barrie is acting as if Holland didn't offer such money. That's my point. Because the players didn't sign here, Barrie claims that Holland didn't try to pay them.

[kliq 3,755]

Wow, I didn't realize you and Barrie were so important to one another. No need to defend the guy so rigorously. He's a big boy. For the record, here's a collection of Barrie's posts regarding Holland's rebuild plan and signing UFA's.

"I'm still not really sure what Holland could have done since 2009 to make things any better. We're rebuilding through the draft. With the Cap, and how over inflated the UFA market is, it's the way to go. We haven't missed out on a thing by not signing guys like Ehrhoff, Clarkson, and Wisniewski, or Suter or Parise to 13 years."

"I guess I was in the huge minority this offseason thinking we had a very good hockey team. Holland, stayed away from overpaying for UFA's, and built a team with a lot of depth. I'm not surprised we're 4-1-2."

"No worries they'll sign. Holland doesn't sign over priced UFA's for this reason. There's more then enough cap room to sign Tatar and DeKeyser, then Nyquist and Smith next off season."

"I'll take Kenny, who's building the team with the draft, isn't signing any over priced UFA's, and actually knows how the cap works."

"I think it's obvious Holland is building through the draft, and won't overpay for UFA's. Teams that build through the draft win Championships, teams that sign over priced UFA's don't."

Barrie's entire premise is based upon the false notion that Holland has refused to "overpay" UFA's since 2009. But it isn't for a lack of trying. Holland has made big, competitive, sometimes overpayment offers (Suter & Parise) to numerous players that haven't signed. That isn't Holland refusing to overpay. That's players rejecting his offers.

My post has nothing to do with the poster Barrie. You made a comment about a topic on a "discussion board", I gave my opinion on the topic. I'm not defending anyone, simply giving my opinion. If this was a private convo between you and Barrie that you didnt want anyone else entering, PM him/her.

[e_prime 1,936]

I'm not going to say I like the Quincey contract because I don't, but at the end of the day its for two years, and really has no effect on this season.Niskanen's contract is for 7 years, and Orpik's contract is for 5 years. Orpik's contract was actually ranked the worst in all of hockey in an article I read recently.

I don't hate the contract either... It's just slightly above what I would say is a fair market price for Q. The only reason I don't like it is the fact that we've got one too many third pairing/serviceable as a second pairing defenseman. Q, K, and Lash -- say what you will about each player and their style of play/skill level, but all are serviceable on that third pairing. Problem is: We only need two of the three to allow us to bring up prospects and rotate them in and out no matter who their partner down on the third pairing is. This log-jam of decent defenseman is going to (dragging this post and this thread back, kicking and screaming to being back on topic) keep us from having a high draft pick this upcoming year.

[kliq 3,755]

I don't hate the contract either... It's just slightly above what I would say is a fair market price for Q. The only reason I don't like it is the fact that we've got one too many third pairing/serviceable as a second pairing defenseman. Q, K, and Lash -- say what you will about each player and their style of play/skill level, but all are serviceable on that third pairing. Problem is: We only need two of the three to allow us to bring up prospects and rotate them in and out no matter who their partner down on the third pairing is. This log-jam of decent defenseman is going to (dragging this post and this thread back, kicking and screaming to being back on topic) keep us from having a high draft pick this upcoming year.

You think that us having too many third pair quality D-man is going to make us too good and result in us finishing too high??

[Nightfall 871]

The "month of death" is almost in the books. 5-2-2 record so far. Big game against LA on Friday, but so far the Wings are on the right track. Happy with the results so far. Glad we didn't chose to tank it this year.

[e_prime 1,936]

You think that us having too many third pair quality D-man is going to make us too good and result in us finishing too high??

To consider tanking an option... yes, absolutely.

That are doing so well thus-far, plus the fact that we have so many high quality D prospects chomping at the bit to get to the show... yeah, the results mean that we are going to finish too high in the standings to get a high draft pick.

On top of that, if we trade away any of those three, plus another player, or prospect for even a slight upgrade in D... yeah, that's going to definitely going to result in a better record. Which I'm all for. Upgrade. Play to win. Forget tanking.

[kliq 3,755]

To consider tanking an option... yes, absolutely.

That are doing so well thus-far, plus the fact that we have so many high quality D prospects chomping at the bit to get to the show... yeah, the results mean that we are going to finish too high in the standings to get a high draft pick.

On top of that, if we trade away any of those three, plus another player, or prospect for even a slight upgrade in D... yeah, that's going to definitely going to result in a better record. Which I'm all for. Upgrade. Play to win. Forget tanking.

OK I think I see what you are saying. If we went with all unproved kids instead of guys like Quincey, Kindl we would likely do worse in the standings THIS year.

[e_prime 1,936]

OK I think I see what you are saying. If we went with all unproved kids instead of guys like Quincey, Kindl we would likely do worse in the standings THIS year.

Yes, there is a possibility, but not by much.

As much as I want to think/hope/pray that Marchenko/Oullette/Sproul/etc. ultimately have a higher ceiling than Q or K. They're still highly unproven.

I think the likelihood of more mistakes made by an all rookie third pairing... (That, let's be honest has been suggested by some here on LGW, but would probably nevereverneverneverevernevernever happen under Babcock) ...by either poorly pinching in, or through defensive zone turnovers could lead to costly goals that could decide games leading to us falling in the standings.

...but still probably not enough to garner us a top-five draft pick.

I mean, that's what everybody wants when they say, "TANK IT." No?

...and just so that I'm not misunderstood. I don't think that having middling guys... what did I say before? "servicable"

...like K, Q, and Lash bogging down the third pairing is the way to go either.

Jettison one or two of the three. Hell, jettison all three and get an upgrade. Either way you can then rotate in a kid or kids.

Anyway you look at it, you're still NOT TANKING. It's just the difference between a realistic, and measured approach and an insane one. The previous of which, unbeknownst to some and contrary to the belief of many, is the way that the Red Wings Organization works.

They're not going to have a rookie third pairing just like the plan has always been that they're not going to tank.

#NEVERTANKING

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

TANK IT

[unsaddleddonald 357]

What are our chances at McDavid? I think we still have a shot.

[number9 3,297]

And the big red tank keeps on rollin