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TANK IT! 2014-2015 Season


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#161 Internet.Unknown

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 10:29 PM

 

To be fair, nobody except Red Wing brass, the players themselves, and the agents know what was actually offered. I'm sure if Holland wanted to throw ridiculous amounts of money (see. washington/Brook Orpik) he could have signed some guys.

 

Holland threw just as much money at players as other teams. Those players signed for less or for the same money elsewhere. Barrie is acting as if Holland didn't offer such money. That's my point. Because the players didn't sign here, Barrie claims that Holland didn't try to pay them.



#162 number9

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 10:51 PM

 

Holland threw just as much money at players as other teams. Those players signed for less or for the same money elsewhere. Barrie is acting as if Holland didn't offer such money. That's my point. Because the players didn't sign here, Barrie claims that Holland didn't try to pay them.

 

 

I heard Holland tried to pay them EVEN MORE money than what they took



#163 frankgrimes

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 10:57 PM

Niskanen: got more from Washington and had some connections there Ehrhoff... Wanted 5 years Holland offered 4

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#164 kliq

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 02:34 AM

 

Holland threw just as much money at players as other teams. Those players signed for less or for the same money elsewhere. Barrie is acting as if Holland didn't offer such money. That's my point. Because the players didn't sign here, Barrie claims that Holland didn't try to pay them.

 

Niskanen, like Frank said was offered more by Washington. Erhoff wanted more term which Holland wouldnt give (plus IMO he is hoping to have a career year in Pit and then cash in next year like Niskanen).

 

When you say players took less, this comes from a report by I believe Ansar Khan regarding the Boyle/NYR. While the Wings did reportedly offer more money in total, they offered less per year. (3 years/12.5million @ 4.16million per, opposed to 2 years/9 million @ 4.5million per. Plus, Boyle reportedly wanted to play with St. Louis again, and he thought NYR had a better chance at a cup this year. Though i'm sure if Holland threw at him 3 years at 15million Boyle would have taken it.....but he didnt. Robidas reportedly signed in TO because it puts him closer to family, but I never heard how much Holland offered him.

 

Holland did make offers, but I he didnt appear to throw insane amounts at these players like other teams did (again, ala Wsh/Orpik).



#165 Internet.Unknown

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 05:59 PM

 

Niskanen, like Frank said was offered more by Washington. Erhoff wanted more term which Holland wouldnt give (plus IMO he is hoping to have a career year in Pit and then cash in next year like Niskanen).

 

When you say players took less, this comes from a report by I believe Ansar Khan regarding the Boyle/NYR. While the Wings did reportedly offer more money in total, they offered less per year. (3 years/12.5million @ 4.16million per, opposed to 2 years/9 million @ 4.5million per. Plus, Boyle reportedly wanted to play with St. Louis again, and he thought NYR had a better chance at a cup this year. Though i'm sure if Holland threw at him 3 years at 15million Boyle would have taken it.....but he didnt. Robidas reportedly signed in TO because it puts him closer to family, but I never heard how much Holland offered him.

 

Holland did make offers, but I he didnt appear to throw insane amounts at these players like other teams did (again, ala Wsh/Orpik).

 

Wow, I didn't realize you and Barrie were so important to one another. No need to defend the guy so rigorously. He's a big boy. For the record, here's a collection of Barrie's posts regarding Holland's rebuild plan and signing UFA's.

 

"I'm still not really sure what Holland could have done since 2009 to make things any better. We're rebuilding through the draft. With the Cap, and how over inflated the UFA market is, it's the way to go. We haven't missed out on a thing by not signing guys like Ehrhoff, Clarkson, and Wisniewski, or Suter or Parise to 13 years."

 

"I guess I was in the huge minority this offseason thinking we had a very good hockey team. Holland, stayed away from overpaying for UFA's, and built a team with a lot of depth. I'm not surprised we're 4-1-2."

 

"No worries they'll sign. Holland doesn't sign over priced UFA's for this reason. There's more then enough cap room to sign Tatar and DeKeyser, then Nyquist and Smith next off season."

"I'll take Kenny, who's building the team with the draft, isn't signing any over priced UFA's, and actually knows how the cap works."

"I think it's obvious Holland is building through the draft, and won't overpay for UFA's. Teams that build through the draft win Championships, teams that sign over priced UFA's don't."

 

Barrie's entire premise is based upon the false notion that Holland has refused to "overpay" UFA's since 2009. But it isn't for a lack of trying. Holland has made big, competitive, sometimes overpayment offers (Suter & Parise) to numerous players that haven't signed. That isn't Holland refusing to overpay. That's players rejecting his offers.

 

 

Holland threw just as much money at players as other teams. Those players signed for less or for the same money elsewhere. Barrie is acting as if Holland didn't offer such money. That's my point. Because the players didn't sign here, Barrie claims that Holland didn't try to pay them.



#166 kliq

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 11:21 PM

 

Wow, I didn't realize you and Barrie were so important to one another. No need to defend the guy so rigorously. He's a big boy. For the record, here's a collection of Barrie's posts regarding Holland's rebuild plan and signing UFA's.

 

"I'm still not really sure what Holland could have done since 2009 to make things any better. We're rebuilding through the draft. With the Cap, and how over inflated the UFA market is, it's the way to go. We haven't missed out on a thing by not signing guys like Ehrhoff, Clarkson, and Wisniewski, or Suter or Parise to 13 years."

 

"I guess I was in the huge minority this offseason thinking we had a very good hockey team. Holland, stayed away from overpaying for UFA's, and built a team with a lot of depth. I'm not surprised we're 4-1-2."

 

"No worries they'll sign. Holland doesn't sign over priced UFA's for this reason. There's more then enough cap room to sign Tatar and DeKeyser, then Nyquist and Smith next off season."

"I'll take Kenny, who's building the team with the draft, isn't signing any over priced UFA's, and actually knows how the cap works."

"I think it's obvious Holland is building through the draft, and won't overpay for UFA's. Teams that build through the draft win Championships, teams that sign over priced UFA's don't."

 

Barrie's entire premise is based upon the false notion that Holland has refused to "overpay" UFA's since 2009. But it isn't for a lack of trying. Holland has made big, competitive, sometimes overpayment offers (Suter & Parise) to numerous players that haven't signed. That isn't Holland refusing to overpay. That's players rejecting his offers.

 

 

My post has nothing to do with the poster Barrie. You made a comment about a topic on a "discussion board", I gave my opinion on the topic. I'm not defending anyone, simply giving my opinion. If this was a private convo between you and Barrie that you didnt want anyone else entering, PM him/her.



#167 e_prime

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 06:48 AM

 

I'm not going to say I like the Quincey contract because I don't, but at the end of the day its for two years, and really has no effect on this season.Niskanen's contract is for 7 years, and Orpik's contract is for 5 years. Orpik's contract was actually ranked the worst in all of hockey in an article I read recently.

 

I don't hate the contract either... It's just slightly above what I would say is a fair market price for Q. The only reason I don't like it is the fact that we've got one too many third pairing/serviceable as a second pairing defenseman. Q, K, and Lash -- say what you will about each player and their style of play/skill level, but all are serviceable on that third pairing. Problem is: We only need two of the three to allow us to bring up prospects and rotate them in and out no matter who their partner down on the third pairing is.  This log-jam of decent defenseman is going to (dragging this post and this thread back, kicking and screaming to being back on topic) keep us from having a high draft pick this upcoming year.


QUOTE
(AtomicPunk @ February 4, 2010 - 12:16AM)

Imma let you finish, and your cap numbers are all good and all that, but imma let Kenny figure it out. Kenny's cap numbers were the best cap numbers this year.

#168 kliq

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 11:46 PM

 

I don't hate the contract either... It's just slightly above what I would say is a fair market price for Q. The only reason I don't like it is the fact that we've got one too many third pairing/serviceable as a second pairing defenseman. Q, K, and Lash -- say what you will about each player and their style of play/skill level, but all are serviceable on that third pairing. Problem is: We only need two of the three to allow us to bring up prospects and rotate them in and out no matter who their partner down on the third pairing is.  This log-jam of decent defenseman is going to (dragging this post and this thread back, kicking and screaming to being back on topic) keep us from having a high draft pick this upcoming year.

 

You think that us having too many third pair quality D-man is going to make us too good and result in us finishing too high??



#169 Nightfall

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Posted Yesterday, 12:39 PM

The "month of death" is almost in the books.  5-2-2 record so far.  Big game against LA on Friday, but so far the Wings are on the right track.  Happy with the results so far.  Glad we didn't chose to tank it this year.


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#170 e_prime

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Posted Yesterday, 01:09 PM

 

You think that us having too many third pair quality D-man is going to make us too good and result in us finishing too high??

To consider tanking an option... yes, absolutely.

 

That are doing so well thus-far, plus the fact that we have so many high quality D prospects chomping at the bit to get to the show... yeah, the results mean that we are going to finish too high in the standings to get a high draft pick.

 

On top of that, if we trade away any of those three, plus another player, or prospect for even a slight upgrade in D... yeah, that's going to definitely going to result in a better record.  Which I'm all for.  Upgrade.  Play to win.  Forget tanking.


QUOTE
(AtomicPunk @ February 4, 2010 - 12:16AM)

Imma let you finish, and your cap numbers are all good and all that, but imma let Kenny figure it out. Kenny's cap numbers were the best cap numbers this year.

#171 kliq

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Posted Yesterday, 08:18 PM

To consider tanking an option... yes, absolutely.

 

That are doing so well thus-far, plus the fact that we have so many high quality D prospects chomping at the bit to get to the show... yeah, the results mean that we are going to finish too high in the standings to get a high draft pick.

 

On top of that, if we trade away any of those three, plus another player, or prospect for even a slight upgrade in D... yeah, that's going to definitely going to result in a better record.  Which I'm all for.  Upgrade.  Play to win.  Forget tanking.

 

OK I think I see what you are saying. If we went with all unproved kids instead of guys like Quincey, Kindl we would likely do worse in the standings THIS year.



#172 e_prime

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Posted Today, 10:11 AM

 

OK I think I see what you are saying. If we went with all unproved kids instead of guys like Quincey, Kindl we would likely do worse in the standings THIS year.

Yes, there is a possibility, but not by much. 

As much as I want to think/hope/pray that Marchenko/Oullette/Sproul/etc. ultimately have a higher ceiling than Q or K. They're still highly unproven. 

I think the likelihood of more mistakes made by an all rookie third pairing... (That, let's be honest has been suggested by some here on LGW, but would probably nevereverneverneverevernevernever happen under Babcock)  ...by either poorly pinching in, or through defensive zone turnovers could lead to costly goals that could decide games leading to us falling in the standings. 

...but still probably not enough to garner us a top-five draft pick.

I mean, that's what everybody wants when they say, "TANK IT."  No?  :eh:

 

...and just so that I'm not misunderstood.  I don't think that having middling guys... what did I say before? "servicable"

...like K, Q, and Lash bogging down the third pairing is the way to go either. 

Jettison one or two of the three.  Hell, jettison all three and get an upgrade.  Either way you can then rotate in a kid or kids. 

Anyway you look at it, you're still NOT TANKING.  It's just the difference between a realistic, and measured approach and an insane one. The previous of which, unbeknownst to some and contrary to the belief of many, is the way that the Red Wings Organization works. 

They're not going to have a rookie third pairing just like the plan has always been that they're not going to tank.

 

#NEVERTANKING


QUOTE
(AtomicPunk @ February 4, 2010 - 12:16AM)

Imma let you finish, and your cap numbers are all good and all that, but imma let Kenny figure it out. Kenny's cap numbers were the best cap numbers this year.





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